119 replies to this topic

[The Snowman]

What is the total power of the kingdoms of westeros, leaving nobody behind, their full fighting strength?
Without buying sellswords

More than welcome to speculate on Kingdom strength when Aegon Conquest was taking place if you want
Pre AGOT I'd go with

North (Stark): 50 000 Men
Vale (Arryn): 35 000 Men
Riverlands (Tully): 30 000 Men
Westerlands (Lannisters): 40 000 Men
Crownlands: 15 000 Men
Stormlands (Baratheon): 25 000 Men
Reach (Tyrells): 90 000 Men
Dorne (Martells): 25 000 Men


End of ADWD

North (Bolton): 10 000 absolute tops with likely 5-10 000 Men in limbo as to who to support
North (Anti-Bolton): 20 000 (once Manderly is out in the open)
Vale (Arryn): 35 000 Men maybe a few more as it wasn't a war zone
Riverlands (Frey): 12-15 000 Men with likely another 5-10 000 Men in limbo or have just left
Westerlands (Lannister): 15 000 tops
Crownlands: 5000 Men
Stormlands (Aegon): 12 000 Men
Stormlands (Baratheon): 2000 Men
Reach: 80 000 Men
Dorne: 25 000 Men


Just something I'd like to add is that I'm surprised the Starks and Arryns never formed an alliance to conquer the Riverlands and share the spoils. Seriously those two Kingdoms could have probably handed it to the Ironborn and Riverlands. On top of that they both were very hard to conquer due to their terrain. Just a thought

[NomadicDirewolf]

i think the lannisters have more men at their disposal, its closer to 70,000 imo, they brought together two armies of 20,000 for the beginning of the war, but they were able to form a new army of roughly the same strength after whispering wood, then another after robb went back to the riverlands after oxcross. As for the north after aDwD, its said roose boltons army is only 6,000, and stannis is even smaller, and thats including his own men from the south, i dont doubt that their is still roughly 20,000-25,000 northmen, but all those are being with held due to the ironborn invasion, or more often just due to the fact they arent too keen on the boltons, and only send a token force to stop there relatives being killed.

[The Snowman]

NomadicDirewolf, on 05 August 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

i think the lannisters have more men at their disposal, its closer to 70,000 imo, they brought together two armies of 20,000 for the beginning of the war, but they were able to form a new army of roughly the same strength after whispering wood, then another after robb went back to the riverlands after oxcross. As for the north after aDwD, its said roose boltons army is only 6,000, and stannis is even smaller, and thats including his own men from the south, i dont doubt that their is still roughly 20,000-25,000 northmen, but all those are being with held due to the ironborn invasion, or more often just due to the fact they arent too keen on the boltons, and only send a token force to stop there relatives being killed.

IMO having the North only having say 20-25 000 Men is just ridiculous. The strength of Dorne is around that figure and I just don't think the North could have held its own all these years and also sustained itself over such a huge area and not have an army of a pretty large amount. Sure there's Moat Cailin but there are two coasts to attack from and to think that the North hasn't faced a naval invasion is just silly imo.

As for the Lannisters, I think that 3rd force raised after the WW was a mix of smallfolk and sellswords from what I read but I could be wrong. So I suppose they should have the fighting power 55 000 of their own but no more or it just becomes unbelievable that they can have that many when they are essentially half the size of the Reach which is the most populous area in the 7 kingdoms and they can probably muster no more than 90 000 Men. Some of the numbers dont add up imo

[Grip]

One can wonder how long it will take to replace all the losses suffered, especially the Riverlands who has been tried so often. Of course this will affect Aegons invasion, likely even that of Dany once she lands in Westeros. Now that most of those major Houses opposed to the previous Targaryens it might speak in the new generation of Targs favor.

[The Snowman]

Grip, on 05 August 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

One can wonder how long it will take to replace all the losses suffered, especially the Riverlands who has been tried so often. Of course this will affect Aegons invasion, likely even that of Dany once she lands in Westeros. Now that most of those major Houses opposed to the previous Targaryens it might speak in the new generation of Targs favor.

That's a good point you raise. As I stated just above I would find a little unbelievable to have most of the Northern forces gone. Seriously 18 000 Men go south and thats supposed to be the ultimate power of the Starks. Seems silly given that Wyman Manderly has built over 50 warships. Even with only 10 per deck thats 5000 men a few thousand heavy horse he has at his command. If Manderly has these types of resources available then the rest of the North should be able to muster at least another 15000 men. The Baratheons are in REAL trouble seeing as Storm's End is completely isolated...again and rest of the 'Baratheon' forces as with Stannis who has somethiong like 1500 men with him and likely no more so they look like they're in a bit of trouble unless all those forces are Florents and Men from Dragonstone. But it seems like Aegon was having a fun time of it seizing several castles in a day including the Griffin's Roost and seemed pretty confident of taking Storm's End without too much trouble. The Lannisters have enemies on all sides so they might be a touch of trouble. The Vale will be fine and Dorne will probably ally with Aegon if Dany doesn;t hurry herself up. The Reach doesn't seem to back the horse in a race unless they believe 100% they will win so when confronted by Aegon with the Golden Company and Dorne by his side also with the Ironborn continuing to attack the Reach they may simply just toss the Lannisters and Tommen aside and join Aegon.

[Grip]

Since the Reach so far, besides the Ironborn raids, has been relatively unbloodied and they having such massive forces at hand I think that something is bound to happen that will severely weaken them, otherwise they are too strong in comparison to the other great Houses. I think a Hightower uprising might happen which might be supported by Randyll Tarly and other houses and that sides with Aegon thus leading to a potential "civil war" in the Reach between those loyal to Hightower and Tyrell. Certainly this is alluded to by some of the members of the Golden Company, that the Tyrells hold on the Reach is not as strong as they might like to think. I also think now with Quentyns actions in Dorne that Dany might find that the Martells wont rise for her, atleast not as readily as they might have pre the "Dragontamer". The Vale is divided and might face a ciwil war on their own, LF vs Bronz Yohn Royce, so that leaves Dorne and the Reach as of yet unbloodied and still united. I think, and hope, that this will change.

[The Snowman]

Grip, on 05 August 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Since the Reach so far, besides the Ironborn raids, has been relatively unbloodied and they having such massive forces at hand I think that something is bound to happen that will severely weaken them, otherwise they are too strong in comparison to the other great Houses. I think a Hightower uprising might happen which might be supported by Randyll Tarly and other houses and that sides with Aegon thus leading to a potential "civil war" in the Reach between those loyal to Hightower and Tyrell. Certainly this is alluded to by some of the members of the Golden Company, that the Tyrells hold on the Reach is not as strong as they might like to think. I also think now with Quentyns actions in Dorne that Dany might find that the Martells wont rise for her, atleast not as readily as they might have pre the "Dragontamer". The Vale is divided and might face a ciwil war on their own, LF vs Bronz Yohn Royce, so that leaves Dorne and the Reach as of yet unbloodied and still united. I think, and hope, that this will change.

A Hightower uprising would certainly be something out of the blue and tbh they are the power in the Reach since the Gardeners fell.
I don't think there will be a civil war in the Vale, I had got the impression that they were the potential ally of the North who hadn't been touched by TWOT5K with fresh levies and troops.

[Grip]

Snowman93, on 05 August 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

A Hightower uprising would certainly be something out of the blue and tbh they are the power in the Reach since the Gardeners fell.
I don't think there will be a civil war in the Vale, I had got the impression that they were the potential ally of the North who hadn't been touched by TWOT5K with fresh levies and troops.

Perhaps a civil war was too strong a word for the situation there, it just that I dont think that presently they are united. Might be that when LF triumphs, which I think he will do, they then can either ally with the North in some fashion or try and press Sansa's claims. Until the dispute between LF and Bronze Yohn has been settled I doubt that either one wants to commit their forces elsewhere. Its a shame that Lysa didnt allow her bannermen, Bronze Yohn being the most vocal, to raise armies and join with Robb.

[The Snowman]

Grip, on 05 August 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

Perhaps a civil war was too strong a word for the situation there, it just that I dont think that presently they are united. Might be that when LF triumphs, which I think he will do, they then can either ally with the North in some fashion or try and press Sansa's claims. Until the dispute between LF and Bronze Yohn has been settled I doubt that either one wants to commit their forces elsewhere. Its a shame that Lysa didnt allow her bannermen, Bronze Yohn being the most vocal, to raise armies and join with Robb.

If the Vale had joined Robb then the Lannisters would likely have lost the Westerlands. If that occurred I'm sure Balon would have likely joined Robb and the  Stark-Greyjoy-Tully-Arryn Alliance would have controlled everything from the Westerlands and Vale and up. Im sure the Baratheon-Reach forces would have then cleaned up the Crownlands. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Renly had taken the throne with Highgarden behind him and maybe Dorne if he played it right vs Northern alliance of the Tullys-Arryns-Starks-Greyjoys. Now that'd be one hell of a civil war if they didn't settle their differences.

[The Snowman]

Perhaps with the over power of the Reach maybe the kingdom will split between the Tyrells and Hightowers. That'd be an interesting situatiom

[Naathi Prince]

I think pretty clearly, pre war of the five Kings, the Reach had the most men. The total army of Renly, which consisted of a large portion but not all of the power of the Stormlands and the Reach, was about 80,000. Most of those men were from the Reach, and the Hightowers didn't even send anyone, they alone can raise 30,000 men. The Reach's top total strength possible is a land force of about 100,000 men and a Navy of about 150 ships. They are clearly the most powerful of the seven Kingdoms in terms of being about the men in the field. The problem is they lack natural borders pretty much everywhere.
The next is the Westerlands. The Lannisters seem to be able to field about 60,000 men outside of of the Westerlands, with about 50 ships in Lannisport and strong garrisons for their many easily defensible castles. To invade the West you need to either cross over rugged hills, or take the fortress at Golden Tooth or Crakehall, neither of which is going to be easy.
The North, strong, defensible borders and a top fighting strength of about 45,000 men. Moat Cailin, The Neck, and White Harbor protect the richest, most densely populated areas of the North.  They have only a small Naval presence now, but they ought to be able to field a fleet the size of the fleet in Lannisport.
The Vale, criminally underrated on this board, likely because Littlefinger rules it right now and he's not the guy going on and on about soldiers and how many men he has under his employ. The Vale has a multitude of noble houses, however. The Lords Declarant alone make up less than half of the Lords of the Vale, and they have 12,000 men and the ability to double that number. That's not counting the Corbrays, the Graftons (of Gulltown, the 4th biggest city in Westeros), the Coldwaters, and many other Houses. The Vale also has strong natural defenses in the Mountains and Gates of the Moon. 40-50,000 men and a fleet close in size to the Lannisters and the North.
The Stormlands, a small area with poor weather, the Stromlands still can boast a supposedly unconquerable fortress and a decent amount of troops, as well as a Navy, Referring back to Renly's host, it seems that the Stormlands likely can field an army of about 35,000 men. In pre-Aegon Westeros, the Storm Kings were stronger because they owned part of the Crownlands and part of the Riverlands.
The Iron Islands, although they probably can't field as many men as the Riverlands, they are still hard to fight simply due to the water barrier and their Naval superiority over the rest of Westeros. While the North, the Westerlands, or the The Reach may be able to eventually repel the Ironborn, they cannot conquer them fully alone, or even when two of them work together. Typically, at that point, the Ironborn have destroyed much of their economies and stolen hundreds of people to be thralls and salt wives. With the Iron Fleet and the various smaller fleets of the other Houses (even House Greyjoy has its own fleet), The Ironmen have previously conquered the Riverlands as far as Harrenhal.
Dorne, The Targaryen inability to conquer Dorne has more to do with their inability to adapt their fighting style of fighting in the hot environment of Dorne. Dorne has no Navy and a host of 50,000 spears (according to Quentyn Martell), but most of their men are absolutely useless outside of Dorne. They may be able to keep most invaders out, but they have no ability to project force.
The Riverlands have it rough. The only thing they have that is close to a secure border are the Twins at the border of the Neck and Seaguard on the Sunset Sea. Their Western, Southern, and Eastern neighbors can all invade them fairly easily. Although they can field 40,000 men, they cannot gather them into a host due to the difficulty of defending their borders, something Hoster well understood when he sought to marry one of his daughters to the Starks and the other to the Lannisters.
The Crowlands max strength around 25,000, if you count the City Watch. Likely stronger under the Targaryens.

[E-Ro]

I think eveyones lannister numbers are to high, I would say 50,000 max. In got tywin has 20,000 jaime 15,000. The remnants of jaimes host and the sweepings of the west got them 10,000 men. Thats about 45,000 Maybe they could raise another host of 5,000 scraping the barrel but that would be about it. This war was tough on them. I am also going to say the remnants of tywins army before they were dispersed was 15,000 after numerous battles and forced marches no way he still had 20,000 men. The freys in the riverlands outnumber the lannisters, I thought this was odd since the riverlords took such a beating, IIRC jaime had 6,000 westermen? So the riverlords have at least that left over. Other then that I think everyone is acuurate enough.

[The Mother of Dragons]

Pre-AGoT
The North: Probably around 50,000
Riverlands: Between 40,000 and 45,000
The Vale: 35,000 to 40,000
The Reach: 120,000
Stormlands: 40,000 or somewhere around that
The Iron Islands: 20,000 to 28,000 but supported by their immense navy
Dorne: 60,000
The Crownlands: 20,000; 24,000 or so with the City Watch
The Westerlands: 50,000

War of Five Kings
North: 35,000
Riverlands: 20,000
Stormlands: 30,000
Dorne: 50,000
The Reach: 100,000
The Iron Islands: 15,000 supported by immense navy
Crownlands: 18,000; 21,000 with City Watch
Westerlands: 60,000
The Vale: 35,000

Post-ADwD
North: 8,000 Bolton men; 15,000 Stark retainers
Riverlands: 10,000; 6,000 Freys
Stormlands: 6,000
Dorne: 50,000
The Reach: 90,000
Iron Islands: 10,000
Crownlands: 15,000; 19,000 to 20,000 with the City Watch
Westerlands: 30,000
The Vale: 35,000

[Naathi Prince]

E-Ro, on 05 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I think eveyones lannister numbers are to high, I would say 50,000 max. In got tywin has 20,000 jaime 15,000. The remnants of jaimes host and the sweepings of the west got them 10,000 men. Thats about 45,000 Maybe they could raise another host of 5,000 scraping the barrel but that would be about it. This war was tough on them. I am also going to say the remnants of tywins army before they were dispersed was 15,000 after numerous battles and forced marches no way he still had 20,000 men. The freys in the riverlands outnumber the lannisters, I thought this was odd since the riverlords took such a beating, IIRC jaime had 6,000 westermen? So the riverlords have at least that left over. Other then that I think everyone is acuurate enough.

sweepings of Lannisport, not the whole West. For the most part, there weren't many high lords riding with the Lannister host. They also have the reinforced garrison at Golden Tooth and all the castles. If your numbers are correct, then the Westerlands are essentially spent.

[Barty]

The Mother of Dragons, on 05 August 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Pre-AGoT
The North: Probably around 50,000
Riverlands: Between 40,000 and 45,000
The Vale: 35,000 to 40,000
The Reach: 120,000
Stormlands: 40,000 or somewhere around that
The Iron Islands: 20,000 to 28,000 but supported by their immense navy
Dorne: 60,000
The Crownlands: 20,000; 24,000 or so with the City Watch
The Westerlands: 50,000

War of Five Kings
North: 35,000
Riverlands: 20,000
Stormlands: 30,000
Dorne: 50,000
The Reach: 100,000
The Iron Islands: 15,000 supported by immense navy
Crownlands: 18,000; 21,000 with City Watch
Westerlands: 60,000
The Vale: 35,000

Post-ADwD
North: 8,000 Bolton men; 15,000 Stark retainers
Riverlands: 10,000; 6,000 Freys
Stormlands: 6,000
Dorne: 50,000
The Reach: 90,000
Iron Islands: 10,000
Crownlands: 15,000; 19,000 to 20,000 with the City Watch
Westerlands: 30,000
The Vale: 35,000

Dorne is the least populous of the seven kingdoms - no way they have more men than the vale or riverlands. also you seem to be missing 10000 dornishmen in there somewhere - they did not take part in the war so how did their numbers reduce from 60k to 50k??

[Naathi Prince]

I don't know where this "The vale is small" thing comes from. They have Gulltown, the 4th largest city in Westeros. They have House Arryn and House Royce, House Waynwood, Belmore, Hunter, Corbrary, and even more. The Royce's alone seem to have 3 houses sworn to them.

[Barty]

Before the war:
North: 50k
Vale: 40k
Riverlands: 40k
West: 50k
Reach: 80k
Iron Islands: 50k(seems to many but Euron did have a 1000 ships and assuming a modest number of 50 men per ship they get 50k - but I guess he emptied the whole of the iron islands)
Dorne: 30k
Stormlands: 35k
Crownlands + Dragonstone: 30k
After the war
North:35k(40k if you add in the wildlings, also i have added both the pro boltons and anti boltons) : Robb took 20k south and Bolton brought back 5k
Vale: 40k : No part in war so strength is the same
Riverlands: 15k(including around 3k freys) : Got beaten up pretty bad by Tywin and Jaime but considering freys had 4k and edmure musters 10k easily to beat Tywin in the battle of the fords - 15k seems reasonable
West: 20k : Jaime's and Staffords armies were beaten badly by Robb and he did then go around taking on small garrisons all over the westlands, even Tywin had some pretty bad casualties(Tbh i would be surprised if any lannister manages to collect 20k men)
Reach: 65k: must have lost plenty of men on the blackwater and it is stated that in the battle of duskendale as well casualties for Tarly were high
Iron Islands: 50k:did not fight any major battles
Dorne:30k :did not fight
Stormlands:25k :they fought on the blackwater but many saved their skins by switching over to the enemy
Dragonstone +Crownlands : 18k :Dragonstone has few men left and the crownlands are too small to raise many men.

[The Snowman]

This is good stuff. I think that Dorne may have been represented as a lot stronger than they actually are. I remember Doran telling Arianne that he only says Dorne can field 50 000 Men as a deterrent and to make them seem stronger than they are and as they are apparently the least populous region in the Westeros with the Iron Islands I'd give them 25 000 and no more than 30 000.

E-Ro, on 05 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

I think eveyones lannister numbers are to high, I would say 50,000 max. In got tywin has 20,000 jaime 15,000. The remnants of jaimes host and the sweepings of the west got them 10,000 men. Thats about 45,000 Maybe they could raise another host of 5,000 scraping the barrel but that would be about it. This war was tough on them. I am also going to say the remnants of tywins army before they were dispersed was 15,000 after numerous battles and forced marches no way he still had 20,000 men. The freys in the riverlands outnumber the lannisters, I thought this was odd since the riverlords took such a beating, IIRC jaime had 6,000 westermen? So the riverlords have at least that left over. Other then that I think everyone is acuurate enough.

Lannisters can raise quite a few men but they were pretty banged up after The War of the Five Kings after Robb spanked them on several occasions. Also wasn't Stafford Lannisters host comprised of a lot of sellswords? Sure the Lannisters could likely but a few free companies like the Golden Company if they had the time but just from their lands I don't see them fielding more than 45 000 Men.

Naathi Prince, on 05 August 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

I don't know where this "The vale is small" thing comes from. They have Gulltown, the 4th largest city in Westeros. They have House Arryn and House Royce, House Waynwood, Belmore, Hunter, Corbrary, and even more. The Royce's alone seem to have 3 houses sworn to them.

I think that conception comes from the fact that we didn't get to see the Vale in the War of the Five Kings and that Tyrion stated he could take the Vale with his father's men but he could've just been messing with them.  However I don't see them being militarily stronger than the North.

[Free Northman]

The Westerlands strength is being overrated here. It is a small region, much of it covered by hills and mountains.

Tywin had 20,000 men and Jaime 15,000. Maybe two thirds of Jaime's host was slaugthered, leaving about 5,000 men that fled back in the direction of the Golden Tooth.

Stafford Lannister then raised another host, partly by gathering up the remnants of Jaim's host, and partly by adding the sweepings of Lannisport.

The new host at most numbered about 10,000, of which maybe 5,000 were the remnants of Jaime's host. So it only really added 5,000 new warriors to the initial force of 35,000. Hence, the total Westerland army that was involved in the War of the Five Kings, numbered about 40,000. And this included mercenaries like the Brave Companions, Tyrion's clansmen and other sellswords.

And this already had them down to the sweepings of Lannisport.

In terms of population I'd put the Westerlands below the Riverlands, and below the North as well. But due to their density and wealth, they can raise a larger part of their population in a shorter period of time.

They are probably capable of raising around 45,000 altogether, with the Riverlands at a similar level. Of course, Tywin could bring in 20,000 sellswords from Essos if he wanted to, given his wealth. But in terms of Westerland forces in their own right, I would not put them higher than 45,000.

With the North at 55,000 or more, but unable to gather all of these into a single army very easily.

[Batman]

Reach - 100,000
Westerlands - 50,000
North - 45,000
Riverlands - 40,000
Vale - 40,000
Stormlands - 35,000
Dorne - 30,000
Iron Islands - 25,000
Crownlands - 25,000