88 replies to this topic

[kissdbyfire]

You know what? I'm going to unfollow this because I'm just too tired of repeating the same thing, as you're probably tired of reading the same thing from me. But before I go, one more time, for the road.

skingchanged into against their will =/= willing vessel

[The Red Hand]

kissdbyfire, on 06 August 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

I don't really know of you're deliberately not understanding what I'm saying but I can't explain it any better than I did the previous times, sorry...

Your saying that Bran can't communicate through the trees, at least not effectively, because it doesn't make sense to you. Waht I'm saying is that more so than just a presence or telepathy, the sound of the leaves rustling creates a system of words that people can understand. Theon describes the words as "cold" or "sad", and hears crying that admitedly may have come from Jeyne. I never meant to imply that "trees had vocal cords", only that through some kind of magic Bran can produce a voice and that voice makes an actual sound.

Edited by The Red Hand, 06 August 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Lord of Insignificance]

Thunderfistl, on 05 August 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Kissdbyfire that theory sounds great, I think Coldhands might have been some kind of special sacrifice for bloodraven, and maybe theon could be brans 'coldhands'.

Except he would be "no hands." ...or fingers rather. That is an unusually practical standpoint for Bran's character. It may be possible, but it seems very un-Bran

[FanTasy]

The Red Hand, on 06 August 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Your saying that Bran can't communicate through the trees, at least not effectively, because it doesn't make sense to you. Waht I'm saying is that more so than just a presence or telepathy, the sound of the leaves rustling creates a system of words that people can understand. Theon describes the words as "cold" or "sad", and hears crying that admitedly may have come from Jeyne. I never meant to imply that "trees had vocal cords", only that through some kind of magic Bran can produce a voice and that voice makes an actual sound.

The thing is that we can't be sure of this, at this stage.

In the first chapter of AGOT, when Jon is riding up with the Stark siblings, Jon hears something that only he can hear, which makes him turn back and find Ghost. It is explicitely stated here that Bran hears 'the wind in the trees' but that Jon is listening to something else.

I would not use the term 'speaking' with (ETA or through) a tree, because we are told that the trees and whoever controls them have no voice.

So what is it?
It might be 'communicating', invoking thoughts. No warging/skinchanging/mindraping (ugh). No, some way of getting in touch with whatever the one who seeks refuge or wisdom is looking for, in their own consience or moral foundation.

I guess the thing that in my opinion comes nearest is 'praying', which of course can be seen as communication which oneself as well as - in a religious sense - as communication with a god..

I don't believe Bran speaks through the trees and influences people.
I think he may enable them to find peace, to find themselves, which is not influencing but facilitating.
Bran is not the one who gives help or guidance, he enables the one who seeks help or guidance to help or guide himself.

Edited by FanTasy, 06 August 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[Lord Damian]

If Bran wargs theon, that will completely warp the mind of theon forever, he will totally lose it because he has been on the tipping point for some time now.

[Dwarven_Guile]

kissdbyfire, on 05 August 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

Hodor struggles because he doesn't understand what's going on. He's afraid of it and an unwilling participant..

Everyone we've seen has been an unwilling participant, no way Bran wargs into Theon. Not sure why everyone is hellbent on the whole warging into someone theory or everyone is glamoured theory. It is not at all Martin's style of writing and honestly it would completely go against the whole theme of the series, and magic being well magical. It was clearly stated that warging another human is not only extremely risky but very very difficult and can lead to madness, injury, or death. I understand everyone has their own opinion and to each his own, but if you truely understand the human element and character/plot development of the series you'll know that these theories are ridiculous.

[kissdbyfire]

Dwarven_Guile, on 06 August 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Everyone we've seen has been an unwilling participant, no way Bran wargs into Theon. Not sure why everyone is hellbent on the whole warging into someone theory or everyone is glamoured theory. It is not at all Martin's style of writing and honestly it would completely go against the whole theme of the series, and magic being well magical. It was clearly stated that warging another human is not only extremely risky but very very difficult and can lead to madness, injury, or death. I understand everyone has their own opinion and to each his own, but if you truely understand the human element and character/plot development of the series you'll know that these theories are ridiculous.

Against the theme of the series? The theme of having to make choices? Or the theme of living by our decisions? Or the theme that there is no real good or evil? Or the theme of... No, wait! I bowed out of this earlier! Had forgotten, my apologies.

[mbuehner]

Point of order- whats the point of being a Green Seer if all you can do is look through tree eyes? Surely the have more power than that, or why become so legendary? Or why would anyone ever have heard of them? Sending a child of the forest to tell some ancient Stark that you were watching him get busy with a serving girl in the Godswood 6 months ago? They must have more abilities than that.

[Pearlthegirl]

The fact that Ned and Theon "hear something" and go on to blame "leaves rustling" is just how the human brain works.  Find that most logical reason for what you thought you heard, rationalize...musta been the wind etc.  cuz there's no one around talking to me.  
I like this theory. Warging, near warging or communication in some new way once Theon and Stannis get to the weir wood.  Plus Asha suggesting this....anyone wondering about that? I mean she's a Drowned God girl.  And how does she know about Ned being his own executioner exactly. I guess "it is known" perhaps but interesting she is goading Stannis this way to the tree so the something can happen.

[bemused]

Argh !

Asha talks freely with Aly Mormont .

Asha has recieved a civil ( for a clansman ) apology from one of the Wulls.

Some if not all of the clansmen know that Bran and Rickon are alive.

The Northmen don't like burning offenders alive as sacrifices to R'hllor any more than Asha does , and they know Theon would be being burned specifically for a crime he didn't commit .

Asha has had the same amount of time to talk to Aly and possibly some Northmen , as Stannis has had to question Theon ( perhaps Jeyne too, as well as the NW guides and any Umbers who may have guided them from WF...It's unknown how many he might have spoken to ) . But he's since negotiated with Tycho , followed by all that has passed since the opening of the chapter. Could be quite a few hours , all told.

I think Asha's had Northern help in formulating her request... Stannis had previously refused her offer of service , is not a man to be moved to sympathy, and she saw the very negative reaction she got when appealing to him to behave as Robert would have.

Now she asks him to emulate Ned... Stannis knew Ned as a man of honour , he may well know Ned's adherence to the creed " The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. "  He knows the North hold Ned in their hearts as a righteous leader..And he does not have the sibling rivalry  for Ned that he had for Robert , or the sense that he was passed over for Ned... He doesn't resent that the North loves Ned still, the way he resented people's love for Renly..to his mind , Renly was his betrayer ( and a callow boy just fond of dressing up and riding in tourneys ).

He may see this idea as a further cost of winning the support of the North , and as I said before , ( on another thread ?) he'd really rather not have to execute Theon .Whichever way he chooses is likely to alienate one part of his forces... He says Theon is more use to him alive , presently..and he might actually prefer to send Theon to the wall and let Jon deal with him. ..Oh, he will do whatever he has to , but he's still looking for the best solution .

I don't know if Asha expects anything other than giving Theon a chance to avoid death at the stake.

Edited by bemused, 07 August 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Catacombs]

bemused, on 07 August 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I don't know if Asha expects anything other than giving Theon a chance to avoid death at the stake.

That seems about right to me. Especially when you consider her reaction to burning of the man-eaters (she named the one who tricked the guards into killing him first the clever one). I'm not sure that there is anything more than that on her part, but she does seem to be one of the political players who has learned to respect the role of magic in the GoT. Stannis is another, so they both would be receptive to a communication from Bran, BR and the Old Gods through the weirwood and the ravens--especially if it was clear and heard/seen/experienced by all gathered on the island for Theon's execution.

I still think Theon will loose his head, but I would be glad to be wrong.

[Pliskin]

bemused, on 07 August 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

The Northmen don't like burning offenders alive as sacrifices to R'hllor any more than Asha does , and they know Theon would be being burned specifically for a crime he didn't commit .

No, the clansmen want him dead. In the gift chapter, the ones who urge Stannis to execute Theon are the Northmen. They even don't want Stannis to hear the precious things he may know. They want him dead immediately.
They sure as hell don't know about Bran.

[aryagonnakill]

Pliskin, on 07 August 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

No, the clansmen want him dead. In the gift chapter, the ones who urge Stannis to execute Theon are the Northmen. They even don't want Stannis to hear the precious things he may know. They want him dead immediately.
They sure as hell don't know about Bran.

... Besides the Karstarks we don't see any northmen in the gift chapter.  Also the clansmen do know bran is alive, at least the Liddles do.  Recall SOS when Bran, Summer, Hodor, and the Reeds are traveling North, one night it is raining and Summer finds shelter in a cave which is already occupied.  The men in the cave invite them in and share their food.  Summer licks one of the mens hands so Bran knows their ok to trust, the man was a Liddle, the next morning when they woke up the men were gone but had left them food, Bran promises when all is said and done the Liddles would be repaid for every crumb.  The mad we know to be a Liddle also tells us that Bolton men were riding up and down the Kingsroad asking after dead boys and dead wolves... It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the Boltons who are the ones who said that the ironborn sacked Winterfell are asking about the very same Stark children they say are dead, that they are not dead, it is entirely possible that most of the clans if not all know that at least Bran is alive.

[Pliskin]

aryagonnakill, on 07 August 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

... Besides the Karstarks we don't see any northmen in the gift chapter.  Also the clansmen do know bran is alive, at least the Liddles do.

The gift chapter :

Quote

"And the grandsons.  Lord Wull seeks audience as well.  He wants — "
"I know what he wants."  The king indicated Theon.  "Him.  Wull wants him dead.  Flint, Norrey... all of them will want him dead.  For the boys he slew.  Vengeance for their precious Ned."

aryagonnakill, on 07 August 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Recall SOS when Bran, Summer, Hodor, and the Reeds are traveling North, one night it is raining and Summer finds shelter in a cave which is already occupied.  The men in the cave invite them in and share their food.  Summer licks one of the mens hands so Bran knows their ok to trust, the man was a Liddle, the next morning when they woke up the men were gone but had left them food, Bran promises when all is said and done the Liddles would be repaid for every crumb.  The mad we know to be a Liddle also tells us that Bolton men were riding up and down the Kingsroad asking after dead boys and dead wolves... It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if the Boltons who are the ones who said that the ironborn sacked Winterfell are asking about the very same Stark children they say are dead, that they are not dead, it is entirely possible that most of the clans if not all know that at least Bran is alive.

When you say most of the clans, you don't count Wull, Flint and Norray I suppose ?

As for the Liddle, he could simply have kept secret that Bran is alive.
It's not even sure that he understood who he was. Well ok, it's very unlikely, everyone know that Bran is a cripple.

[aryagonnakill]

Pliskin, on 07 August 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

The gift chapter :



When you say most of the clans, you don't count Wull, Flint and Norray I suppose ?

As for the Liddle, he could simply have kept secret that Bran is alive.
It's not even sure that he understood who he was. Well ok, it's very unlikely, everyone know that Bran is a cripple.

Your quote from the gift chapter shows exactly what I was saying, we don't SEE any northmen except for the Karstarks.  Stannis ASSUMES thats what they want.  And I'm counting everyone, I'm saying that if the liddles came across Bolton men riding around asking about Bran and Rickon and their direwolves that other people probably did too, and if you were a northman and a Bolton who tells you that the Ironmen killed Bran and Rickon then sacked Winterfell, and then says by the way have you seen them? You would probably get the idea.  And I don't see why the Liddle wouldn't tell his own Lord at least, though since the clans have been said to be squabbly and unfriendly with each other its completely reasonable to think the Liddles didn't share this info but still, someone knows, why else give us the whole seen with the Liddle in the first place?

[mikephoen]

kissdbyfire, on 06 August 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Yes, and that's precisely what I have been saying, to a degree. Bran can make someone aware of a presence. Both Eddard and Theon don't recognise his voice, nor that it is a human voice. They feel their names being spoken more than hear them exactly. The actual sound they hear is the rustling of leaves. Martin has said time and again that he doesn't like things that don't make sense. It a human voice starts coming out of a tree, no matter what tree it is, it won't make sense because trees don't have vocal cords. Yes, I know it's a fantasy novel with dragons and sorcery and whathaveyou. Still, imo, things must make sense.

I just can't imagine Bran really and meaningfully communicating with anyone through the rustling of leaves. Just my take on it, obviously.

Just wanted to point out that we have already seen a weirwood face speak.  The face in the weirwood door under the Night Fort that Sam takes Bran and the Reeds though speaks to them.  And not in a wind whistling sort of way.

[Catacombs]

mikephoen, on 07 August 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that we have already seen a weirwood face speak.  The face in the weirwood door under the Night Fort that Sam takes Bran and the Reeds though speaks to them.  And not in a wind whistling sort of way.

Good point. There is much and more we do not know about the Weirwood web and how trees and ravens were used to communicate in the age of heroes. If Bran rediscovers how to use these tools he would be a very strong ally in any fight or GoT. Bran talking through the tree to Stannis and those assembled for Theon's execution would get most of the folks assembled to fall to the knees. Stannis, OTOH, would most likely decide to swap out the Red God for the Old Gods--especially if the advice was sound and helped him win. Perhaps that is why Mel saw BR and Bran (or Rickon) in her flames...

[bemused]

mikephoen, on 07 August 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that we have already seen a weirwood face speak.  The face in the weirwood door under the Night Fort that Sam takes Bran and the Reeds though speaks to them.  And not in a wind whistling sort of way.

Yes , but I wonder how the Nightfort gate works..it's eyes are blind , but it senses a presence and it senses  whether or not that presence is a genuine brother of the NW.... so it seems to me that it reacts to a spell woven into the location , rather than BR or Bran watching through it.. Sort of like an automatic door ...since no one (greenseer) could be sure exactly when someone would be giving it a try.

I wouldn't rule out that we'll have voices emanating from weirwoods at some point , because if they only ever watched , historically , you might expect they'd only have eyes. I suspect this might be a similar situation to the ravens no longer being able to fully communicate without carrying a letter. It's a forgotten skill... And if Bran and BR can only get limited results from a raven , even though ravens are equipped for sound..I can't imagine them achieving sudden success with a tree , which is not so equipped. ( At least until Bran develops further )

It might happen, but if it did happen in this situation ,I don't think we'd see a mass conversion..The Queen's men are zealots  , outright extremists. I think they'd see it as the evil work of the Great Other , and feel moved to try to destroy the tree.( New converts have an absolute certainty that's hard to shake.) I don't know if Stannis could prevent them from trying , and if they did try , all hell would break loose.

Stannis would probably not have that sort of impulse . To a great extent , he still sees R'hllorism as a tool . He's not the fervent believer Selyse is... I think he still sees the Azor Ahai claim as supplementary. Even if he's aware of the threat of the Others , his main focus is still taking the Iron Throne..that's still the culmination of his vision. If adopting R'hllorism will help him , he'll do that.. if he must respect the Old Gods in order to win the support of the North, he'll do that ,too. He's seen visions in the flames himself , so he knows paranormal things can happen .. and if he should see some manifestation of the power ,or existence of the "Old Gods" , I don't think he'd write it off , but try to see if there's a way to benefit from it.

This may ultimately not sit too well with Mel ( though she may be due for a revelation of her own )..it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I think it 's more likely to be a "Theon as a vessel " scenario , myself. We've seen him on the brink of achieving that connection , he feels Bran's ( The Old God's) presence , and has seen Bran's face transposed on the face of the tree . He feels the ghosts in WF ( may think he's seen one..the HM )." They" recognize him as Theon. He's so ,so close to having a spiritual experience , and surrendering to it , I can hardly imagine it won't happen.

Edited by bemused, 08 August 2012 - 12:55 AM.

[Blackfyre Bob]

This is an awesome thread! I personally think that Bran is going to be able to surpass BR (eventually) and seeing as he has already warged Hodor, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do some crazy shit under BR's guidance, though after reading some of the great posts on here, I tend to favour the 'Theon as a vessel' theory.  In another thread, I read a theory about Theon being the HM and that 'Reek' is seeing a different aspect of himself.  Perhaps he was already warged?  Doesn't Reek have blackouts near the end of ADWD?

[kissdbyfire]

Blackfyre Bob, on 08 August 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

This is an awesome thread! I personally think that Bran is going to be able to surpass BR (eventually) and seeing as he has already warged Hodor, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do some crazy shit under BR's guidance, though after reading some of the great posts on here, I tend to favour the 'Theon as a vessel' theory.  In another thread, I read a theory about Theon being the HM and that 'Reek' is seeing a different aspect of himself.  Perhaps he was already warged?  Doesn't Reek have blackouts near the end of ADWD?

I'm very curious to see who the Hooded Man will turn out to be. I don't think it's Theon himself ('Theon Durden'). I would like if he turned out to be Benjen but I don't really see a way for that to work. My crackpot du jour is that he's Brandon Stark's bastard son but that's completely unfounded, and more of a wishful thinking kinda thing than a proper theory.