Learning to Lead IV: sucess in failure? An ADWD Daenerys and Jon reread project

[Lummel]

...That quote seemed to suggest that Aemon had only informed Jon that Alester Florent was burnt by Melisandre. It does not explicitly state that Aemon told Jon that Ser Axell had done nothing to stop it. The point that Stannis would allow his own Hand to be burnt at the stake is very important, Ser Axell's own actions, not so much...

I suppose the point here is POV. From Jon's POV family is huge, his memories of his half-siblings are exceptionally dear to him but here is a man who didn't stand up for his own brother. I imagine that for Jon Axell must the lowest of the low considering that he himself was moved to start a fight with a superior officer following a jibe about The Ned and would have deserted the Watch if not for the actions of his Brothers to run away to serve with Robb.

[Dr. Pepper]

Yes, this is a definitely a good point. I see it as a mix of both- Some cockiness on Jon's part but probably more just tired of being pestered about marriage to Val (it seems from Jon's thoughts that this had been going on a while).

Speaking of this, I absolutely adore Jon's hatred for the Southron fools here. We talked about it earlier, but it seems to be at a high point here. Some hilarious one-liners and thoughts. Here's a list:

I actually loved when Jon finally lost his temper and started insulting Ser Axell. I mean, the guy is a total idiot, an Jon is supposed to be the head of an independent institution. Ser Axell is his guest here, and he is definitely not in charge of the place.

I really hope I do not open a Pandora's box with these comments, but considering it's a thread meant to compare styles, I think it merits acknowledgement.

These two comments recall some earlier discussion in these threads and also frequent topics on the forum on Dany's regard to the people of Slaver's Bay. Dany losing her temper and making disparaging remarks or having rude thoughts about those around her is frequently viewed negatively while Jon's outburst to Ser Axell a bit more positively. As Loras points out, both Jon and Dany express contempt for cultures they do not entirely understand. I've done a quick mental tally and my best guess is that in total we have just as much exposure to Stannis' entourage as we do to the entourage in Slaver's Bay. Through discussion in these threads, I believe we've come to a consensus that those in Slaver's Bay aren't the fools we are led to think they are. So what's the difference in reader perception with the 'southron fools'? Is it simply personal bias? Has Jon proven a more trustworthy narrator? Does Jon have a better understanding of southern culture due to Cat's influence or does that influence negatively bias his opinion? Does the religious fanatic aspect play a part in collective distaste (at least within this thread)?

For the record, I pretty much hooted with satisfaction when I re-read that exchange between Jon and Axell and immediately thought, "Stupid southron fool." I'm just curious what in Jon's narrative encourages us to more readily accept his opinion of the southerners when his experience with their culture is similar to Dany's experience with the Meereenese culture.

[The Knight of Onions]

To be fair to Jon, not only is Axell a massive nuisance, the Queen is one also. They both seem to go out of their way to screw with his plans, so he would relish any opportunity to get back at them; I don't blame him. If I was him, I would be desperately looking for the opportunity to give Axell the same end as Slynt

[Julian Rayne]

This is another interesting parallel between Jon and Dany; both of them have contempt for cultures that they don't fully understand: Jon with the Southron courts and Dany with the slavers.

I think Jon understands the Southron courts reasonably well. I think his contempt is due to the presence of understanding rather than its absence.

[tze]

The point that I was making is that Jon treats him badly, he mocks him and his station to his face.

Something that hasn't really been pointed out yet is this: Axell Florent is not Hand of the King. He's Hand of the Queen. An office that has apparently just been invented! We have never heard of any Westerosi Queen Consort having a Hand in three hundred years of history (if it was at all possible, I guarantee Cersei would have had one.) Jon is not stupid, and he knows that Axell Florent is grabbing for power wherever he can---and the fact that Axell has been forced to invent a title via Selyse is pretty clear evidence that he couldn't get that power from Stannis himself. This is not a man who has the king's ear.

And only the Hand of the King exercises the same power as the King. Obviously Axell can't exercise the same power as Stannis because he is not Stannis's Hand. Axell can only exercise the power of Selyse. And what does Jon know about Selyse's power? That she basically has none! This was emphasized repeatedly in Jon's last chapter, when he thinks to himself about how Melisandre is Stannis's true Queen, not Selyse. Selyse's true power has been essentially usurped, so what power can Axell really exercise through her?

Axell Florent is a guest of the Watch, and Jon does not answer to him. Jon does not answer to Selyse. Axell Florent was making some incredibly crude accusations about both Jon and Val when Jon told him off---it's not like Jon was just being rude out of the blue here. I think it's excellent that Jon refused to lie down and be insulted to his face. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Watch, and a southern lord with an invented title, serving as the proxy of a powerless queen, tried to bully him. I would have thought less of Jon if he'd quietly stood there and let someone with no actual power over him try to boss him around.

What Jon doesn't understand is that he is already standing on rotten ice with his officers, treating the Queen's Hand so uncurtly could lead to Axell and Selyse endorsing someone like Bowen Marsh.

That he is "standing on rotten ice with his officers" is far from a fait accompli. Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyk are not Jon's only officers. (And the septon isn't an officer by any stretch of the imagination.) Jon's officers also include Cotter Pyke, Ser Denys Mallister, the First Ranger, as well as all of the commanders of the re-opened castles. All of these men retain their positions only by Jon's word. (And frankly, it's far from guaranteed that Othell Yarwyk really does oppose Jon---we've been told time and again the Yarwyk is easy to sway this way or that, on any topic except building.)

And why should it matter who Axell and Selyse "endorse"? They don't have any power to dictate who gets to be Lord Commander. Jon knows this. That Selyse and Axell probably don't know this doesn't make it any less true. If anything, Jon's officers (except for Marsh) probably have just as much respect for Axell and Selyse as Jon does. We know Cotter Pyke certainly does.

For the record, I pretty much hooted with satisfaction when I re-read that exchange between Jon and Axell and immediately thought, "Stupid southron fool." I'm just curious what in Jon's narrative encourages us to more readily accept his opinion of the southerners when his experience with their culture is similar to Dany's experience with the Meereenese culture.

Jon's POVs are not the first time we've seen Axell Florent, though. Remember Davos's POVs? Davos is definitely a southerner, and he thinks Axell is a pompous ignorant jackass as well.

And I don't think it's projection to look at Axell's words and see them as objective evidence that he's a jackass.

“Some say you have her tucked away for your own pleasure. It makes no matter to me, so long as she is not with child. I’ll get my own sons on her. If you’ve broken her to saddle, well … we are both men of the world, are we not?"

I mean, really.

[Lykos]

I was wondering how much information Jon really has about the queen´s men when I asked what Aemon might have told him.

Pliskin, I think he italics definitely indicate Jon´s own thoughts, so the part saying that Axell did very little to stop the burning of his brother should be something he heard, though I think it´s not completly clear he heard it from Aemon.

Maester Amon might have only told Jon about the burning of Alester and he pieced the rest together from other sources. The italics indicate his own (judging) view.

I think there was no way to not confront Ser Axell, (the more problematic thing was to "encourage" him to steal Val, this was a big mistake), but I hardly see a way Jon could have kept Ser Axel friendly without giving away any ground important to Jon´s cause, integrating the wildlings. Should Jon have played for time, or offer another prize (who)? I don´t see a reasonable way to appease Ser Axell in Jon´s power, he is struggling to keep th Queen at bay ( she gets Alys´wedding ) and is dancing the dance with Melisandre. These are the two he rightly sees as the powers to treat with in the Queen´s entourage.

[Fire Eater]

“Some say you have her tucked away for your own pleasure. It makes no matter to me, so long as she is not with child. I’ll get my own sons on her. If you’ve broken her to saddle, well … we are both men of the world, are we not?"

Breaking the horse to saddle refers to horse taming, or breaking the spirit of a horse, and forcing it to accept a rider to mount it. Axell is probably implying that Jon raped Val. Jon's reply was tame compared to what my reply would have been.

Jon's marrying of Sigorn to Alys demonstrates his political skills. He executes a more effective version of Euron Crow's Eye act of marrying off Asha to Erik Ironmaker:

She had to pay her nuncle his just due. With one stroke, Euron had turned a rival into a supporter, secured the isles in his absence, and removed Asha as a threat.

In one stroke, Jon turned a rival and potential enemy, Sigorn, into an ally, guaranteed support for the NW from Karhold and removed the threat of Cregan and his father from using Alys to obtain Karhold.

[Julian Rayne]

For the record, I pretty much hooted with satisfaction when I re-read that exchange between Jon and Axell and immediately thought, "Stupid southron fool." I'm just curious what in Jon's narrative encourages us to more readily accept his opinion of the southerners when his experience with their culture is similar to Dany's experience with the Meereenese culture.

I think there are three factors here. One is that the cultures of the North and South are not as different as the cultures of Ghis and whatever mix of cultural values Danaerys has picked up from her life experience.

The second factor is that Jon considers some Southrons Southron fools. He likes and respects others. While Daenerys has a more monolithic view of the Ghiscari. She cannot even decide which of them she trusts or who represents the true face of Slaver's Bay.

The third is that in Jon's case, the Southrons are a foreign intrusion into what is essentially a Northern situation. With Daenerys, she herself is the invading culture. Jon has a more of a right to expect the Southrons to conform.

[Dr. Pepper]

To be fair to Jon, not only is Axell a massive nuisance, the Queen is one also. They both seem to go out of their way to screw with his plans, so he would relish any opportunity to get back at them; I don't blame him. If I was him, I would be desperately looking for the opportunity to give Axell the same end as Slynt

I think when we compare with Dany, those in her court in Meereen very much appear to also be screwing with or outright sabotaging her plans. And yet consensus (at least in these threads) has been that Jon's undiplomatic thoughts and behavior towards those in his 'court' is somehow more positive than Dany's own undiplomatic thoughts and behavior towards those in her court.

Jon's POVs are not the first time we've seen Axell Florent, though. Remember Davos's POVs? Davos is definitely a southerner, and he thinks Axell is a pompous ignorant jackass as well.

And I don't think it's projection to look at Axell's words and see them as objective evidence that he's a jackass.

That's what I mean. We get the same number of POV's who interact with Axell as we do who interact with Hizdahr (using Hiz as an example here). All POV opinions of these two characters are generally negative. I totally agree with you that Axell is an explicit jackass. However, Hiz maintains a fairly polite and diplomatic tone throughout his dialogue with Barristan and Dany and yet we (or at least I do) think more negatively about Dany's behavior and thoughts towards the Meereenese than Jon's behavior and thoughts towards the southerners.

But I think I pretty much answered my own questions above when I brought up the fact that Jon is perhaps a more reliable narrator than Dany and Davos is definitely perceived to be more reliable than Barristan.

I shouldn't have had my morning coffee vicariously through Lummel. Grr.

[Loras]

I suppose the point here is POV. From Jon's POV family is huge, his memories of his half-siblings are exceptionally dear to him but here is a man who didn't stand up for his own brother. I imagine that for Jon Axell must the lowest of the low considering that he himself was moved to start a fight with a superior officer following a jibe about The Ned and would have deserted the Watch if not for the actions of his Brothers to run away to serve with Robb.

I think you are spot on here, for the record. I just don't think that excuses Jon's poor behaviour. While the reader and the majority of those in the thread agree with Jon's treatment of Axell - as a nuisance, I would prefer him to remain professional.

To be fair to Jon, not only is Axell a massive nuisance, the Queen is one also. They both seem to go out of their way to screw with his plans, so he would relish any opportunity to get back at them; I don't blame him.

Axell perhaps but not the Queen. Selyse is Stannis' wife and therefore a major head of state and the first queen to visit since Alysanne. To say that Jon would take any opportunity to get back at her isn't true. He does everything he can to accommodate her.

These two comments recall some earlier discussion in these threads and also frequent topics on the forum on Dany's regard to the people of Slaver's Bay. Dany losing her temper and making disparaging remarks or having rude thoughts about those around her is frequently viewed negatively while Jon's outburst to Ser Axell a bit more positively. As Loras points out, both Jon and Dany express contempt for cultures they do not entirely understand. I've done a quick mental tally and my best guess is that in total we have just as much exposure to Stannis' entourage as we do to the entourage in Slaver's Bay. Through discussion in these threads, I believe we've come to a consensus that those in Slaver's Bay aren't the fools we are led to think they are. So what's the difference in reader perception with the 'southron fools'? Is it simply personal bias? Has Jon proven a more trustworthy narrator? Does Jon have a better understanding of southern culture due to Cat's influence or does that influence negatively bias his opinion? Does the religious fanatic aspect play a part in collective distaste (at least within this thread)?

I agree that a lot of this has to do with reader sympathies. Our previous experience of Ser Axell was from the Stannis loyalist, Davos. It would be interesting to see what Melisandre makes of him. I think that after ADWD was released there was a lot more respect for Jon than for Dany - but ultimately it comes down to the Florents not being a fan favourite family (due to Davos biased viewpoint).

[Lummel]

...I shouldn't have had my morning coffee vicariously through Lummel. Grr.

No! You go and get your own coffee, vicarious coffee is barely as potent as decaff! :)

...I just don't think that excuses Jon's poor behaviour. While the reader and the majority of those in the thread agree with Jon's treatment of Axell - as a nuisance, I would prefer him to remain professional...

I agree in so far as there is no need to encourage people to be hostile to him. He has enough enemies and since Axell Florent is a kinsman, Stannis isn't going to remove him so long as he is loyal to the cause. In other words Jon is at this point looking into a future in which he could be dealing with Ser Axell for years to come.

Quite how Jon should ideally have dealt with with Axell to minimise danger to Val but also to keep him on side I don't know (my excuse though is that I am not Lord Commander of the Night's Watch). Perhaps the interpersonal side is the limit of Jon's skill set, he doesn't see the need to win round Bowen Marsh either.

[Tagganaro]

I don't know. It's a good question about the difference in perception. For my part, I wish Dany called out the slavers/Hizdahr/GG/Reznak more often. That tends to be my biggest complaint with her.

I actually really appreciated Jon calling out Axell. He shouldn't be forced to put up with him like that, and for example in comparison I remember back to when Godry Giantslayer (I think that was his name) was trying to call out Jon in the practice yard. I was hoping Jon would kick his ass, he didn't. Then I was happy when later on he made fun of him. Same goes for Axell.

Dany, I couldn't stand when she sat there idly and let Hizdahr do whatever, or just took GG and Reznak at their words.

Maybe the difference perhaps has to do with humor- I tend to think Jon is really adept at shooting off hilarious one-liners (he's learned well from Stannis) while Dany tends to come across as more angry or bitter? I don't know, I definitely see where you're coming from though. There is a general difference in perception.

[The Knight of Onions]

Axell perhaps but not the Queen. Selyse is Stannis' wife and therefore a major head of state and the first queen to visit since Alysanne. To say that Jon would take any opportunity to get back at her isn't true. He does everything he can to accommodate her.

He wouldn't, as there would be dire consequences, but if he could with impunity, I'm sure he would take that opportunity

[The Knight of Onions]

I think when we compare with Dany, those in her court in Meereen very much appear to also be screwing with or outright sabotaging her plans. And yet consensus (at least in these threads) has been that Jon's undiplomatic thoughts and behavior towards those in his 'court' is somehow more positive than Dany's own undiplomatic thoughts and behavior towards those in her court.

Yeah, I would agree with that. However, whereas Jon has the support of the vast majority of the watch (hence he was voted LC) Dany most certainly doesn't have that support with the meereenese. If she insults or takes any negative action towards a prominent member of the Meereenese, that would incur greater dissent among the populace, and further action amongst the sons of the Harpy. If she was in a different environment, say, King's Landing, where she (hypothetically) has been welcomed as a saviour, with no resistance, I don't doubt that she would respond in a similar fashion to Jon to insolence

[tze]

That's what I mean. We get the same number of POV's who interact with Axell as we do who interact with Hizdahr (using Hiz as an example here). All POV opinions of these two characters are generally negative. I totally agree with you that Axell is an explicit jackass. However, Hiz maintains a fairly polite and diplomatic tone throughout his dialogue with Barristan and Dany and yet we (or at least I do) think more negatively about Dany's behavior and thoughts towards the Meereenese than Jon's behavior and thoughts towards the southerners.

But I think I pretty much answered my own questions above when I brought up the fact that Jon is perhaps a more reliable narrator than Dany and Davos is definitely perceived to be more reliable than Barristan.

I think at the end of the day it simply comes down to readers' access to specific cultural knowledge. Every POV character we have interacting with the Meereenese is a foreigner there, so they (and we) have no truly objective sense of what behavior is and is not considered "appropriate" by the native Meereenese. We have to guess at when people are screwing with/insulting Dany because we don't really have a true baseline among that specific culture to compare their behavior to. With the southerners at the Wall, we don't have that problem: we've had multiple POVs from southern characters and we've seen the way people act both in the North and in the South, so we have an excellent sense of what behavior is and is not considered appropriate by the culture at large and by the southerners in particular. We know Axell is behaving boorishly by the standards of his own culture, so we judge his character accordingly. When it comes to Hizdahr, the issue is far murkier.

And very importantly, Jon himself knows Axell is crossing a line by speaking this way about a woman (especially a woman Axell believes is a princess) because Jon knows that the concept of chivalry espoused in the South condemns such talk. (And he knows that Axell's assumptions about Jon's treatment of Val are considered insulting as well.) Jon's (and Davos's) judgment of Axell is, I think, given more weight than Dany's or Barristan's judgment of Hizdahr, not simply because Jon and Davos are viewed as being better judges of character (though that certainly is part of it), but also because Jon and Davos are judging actions in cultures that are not "foreign"---not with Jon to a large extent (the North is different than the South, but there are a huge number of cultural overlaps) and certainly not with Davos. Dany and Barristan are navigating Meereen through the lens of non-Meereenese cultures and are applying "foreign" understandings to their circumstances, so we're more inclined to look at Dany/Barristan and see them making missteps out of cultural ignorance than we are Jon/Davos.

I agree in so far as there is no need to encourage people to be hostile to him. He has enough enemies and since Axell Florent is a kinsman, Stannis isn't going to remove him so long as he is loyal to the cause. In other words Jon is at this point looking into a future in which he could be dealing with Ser Axell for years to come.

Quite how Jon should ideally have dealt with with Axell to minimise danger to Val but also to keep him on side I don't know (my excuse though is that I am not Lord Commander of the Night's Watch).

I think there comes a point where a person realizes he can't please everybody 100%, and as the price of gaining some people's support is losing other people's support, it's important to note that not everybody's support is of equal weight. To get Axell Florent on his side, Jon would have to be the sort of person Axell Florent likes, and he'd have to basically allow himself to be subservient to Axell---either of these things would cripple Jon's own power at the Wall, causing all of Jon's supporters to turn against him. And having Axell Florent on his side isn't worth that massive price---true power in Stannis's army resides with Stannis, not Selyse, and for the reasons I've already stated, Jon has plenty of reasons to recognize the fact that Axell Florent has no sway over Stannis. (Hell, Jon knows for a fact that Stannis is perfectly willing and able to burn Florents alive, so how much "extra" status does being Selyse's kin actually grant to Axell?) Axell Florent is pretty powerless, all things considered----why should Jon actually give someone like this more power by allowing Axell to dictate Jon's actions and by allowing Axell to insult and demean Jon without even a word of protest?

I thought Jon was actually incredibly restrained during this conversation. He never actually calls Axell or Selyse names. He ducks all of Axell's demands very deftly, and Axell is the one who comes off as incredibly rude, not Jon. Axell flat-out stated that he could have Val brought to the hall naked for inspection. Jon reacted to Axell "upping the ante", as it were.

[Ragnorak]

The Wedding

First a note of appreciation for the writing. Martin had to create a wedding ceremony for the Red God from scratch and I think it was extremely well done.

On the surface the wedding is an excellent political move. It brings the Queen's men, Northerners, and Wildlings together. There is some dissent but no action is ever going to get universal approval and this achieves more unity than could hope to be expected from any other decision or event.

I loved butterbumps! observation about the arena in Dany IX being as much about the audience on display as the event. This seems equally true for the Queen and her men here but I don't think so for the others-- except those making statements by not being seen at all. Even though Dany got married herself, the wedding took place off screen. This seems to be the parallel scene to Dany's fighting pit.

a thin scattering of flakes dancing in the air,

This reminded me of "Jon Snow rode the winch cage down with Dolorous Edd. A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind." and "Sending thin white plumes of snow crystals flying from the highest branches, like icy banners" and "small crystalline showers of ice" and "sprays of loose snow filled the air." This is a pretty consistent image in Jon's chapters and in each chapter someone usually comments on the meaning.

sang Melisandre, her arms upraised against the falling snow

Melisandre raised her hands, and the ditchfire leapt upward toward her fingers, ... A swirl of sparks rose to meet the snowflakes coming down. ... she sang to the hungry flames

As she beckoned, a wall of flames roared upward, licking at the snowflakes with hot orange tongues.

I've always wondered if "her arms raised against the falling snow" was foreshadowing regarding Jon's stabbing. She's singing which frequently implies the use of magic. But the image of falling snow and rising sparks from the fire is one of opposites that destroy each other. Later, when Jon approaches Mel for counsel regarding Mance and Stannis, she is essentially ineffectual. Also standing in contrast to Mel's snow melting flames we have the image of Alys who is really the focal point of the wedding:

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

“Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

The Arya association helps but this is such an incredibly beautiful and powerful image of the North which just a few feet over Mel's wedding flames are destroying. (Alys reminds me of Sansa building Snow Winterfell here but that may just be because I just reread the chapter 3 times in a row)

I'm reminded of how the Ghost of Highheart told Thoros he would see nothing in his fires on the hill with the cut down weirwoods and Jojen telling Bran

“There is a power in living wood,” said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, “a power strong as fire.”

There seems to be some form of magical conflict of opposition between the Old Gods and Mel's Fire God and I think we get a glimpse of that in the wedding imagery.

For several chapters Jon has been worrying about the Thenns. He had the stare down in Mole's Town, he talked about how he couldn't give them a fortress on the way to the weirwoods and then we have this line:

Jon could see the boy in him. His eyes were big as walnuts, though whether it was the fire, the priestess, or the woman that had put the fear in him Jon could not say. Alys was more right than she knew.

No real point other than that Jon's been worrying about the Thenn's since he was made LC and to see Sigorn afraid of Alys just cracks me up.

The Background

What isn't shown but I think is very important is the huge morale boost this has provided at the Wall. Weddings are celebration feasts and the Wall has not likely seen one since the Nights King took a bride. This isn't just an ordinary wedding but one uniting a major Northern House to a Wildling clan attended by a Queen. Any wedding attended by a Queen is a huge deal and a bit of a celebrity affair. This is an affair they'll be telling stories about at the Wall for the next thousand years. We see the NW members even created a House sigil for the Thenns. So many of the NW members had to work to prepare for this event and makes them an inherent part of it. They may be thieves and rapers but this event recalls the past glory and honor of the NW. Think back on Jon's eye opening view of the Watch when he first arrived with Tyrion and now those people are guests at a wedding the Queen is attending.

Three-Finger Hobb’s acquitted himself well. That had been a concern. Hobb had come to him two nights ago complaining that he’d joined the Night’s Watch to kill wildlings, not to cook for them. “Besides, I never done no wedding feast, m’lord. Black brothers don’t never take no wifes. It’s in the bloody vows, I swear ’tis.”

This could be read as a serious and angry complaint but I took it more humorously. Being asked to go from cooking for lowborn criminals to a queen is a good bit of pressure poor Hobb's. Aside from showing Jon has an open door policy, I think the "acquitted himself well" speaks to the pride of being involved in such an historic event. There is always pride in working at a successful endeavor and Jon's observations about how well the feast and the sigil came out seems to speak to this kind of pride by the NW at their participation.

Melisandre

Despite not trusting her Jon still used her for the wedding. He may have had no choice given Selyse but he makes no mention of resenting it. I wondered if the Red God wedding would matter since Jon thinks "Except for kings and uncles" regarding "none may put asunder." I suspect not. Sansa's wedding seems set in stone even being unconsumated and by the Seven and not the Old Gods. Even Asha's Drowned God marriage with a stand in seal seems binding to Stannis so I can't imagine the Red God ceremony getting any less respect.

Jon is asking her for information on Stannis and Mance and she says

“When I search for him all I see is snow.”

The same useless answer.

Jon has clearly asked her this before. So we know Jon hasn't been ignoring her, but trusts her no more than he did in previous chapters. We get a good reminder of why.

“Would you know if the king was dead?” Jon asked the red priestess.

“He is not dead. Stannis is the Lord’s chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.”

Jon had heard all this before.

She doesn't answer his question. Jon is a commander and needs reliable intel. "My God would never let that happen" is not reliable intel. Aemon left him a book covering at least some of that prophesy so Jon has seen it for himself, if only in translation and summary.

“You are seeing cinders dancing in the updraft.”

“I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames. The danger that I warned you of grows very close now.”

“Daggers in the dark. I know. You will forgive my doubts, my lady. A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from a marriage, that was what you said.”

“I was not wrong.”

“You were not right. Alys is not Arya.”

“The vision was a true one. It was my reading that was false. I am as mortal as you, Jon Snow. All mortals err.”

“Even lord commanders.” Mance Rayder and his spearwives had not returned, and Jon could not help but wonder whether the red woman had lied of a purpose. Is she playing her own game?

It is Winter at the Wall. Seeing snow has got to be the least prophetic thing ever. Predicting Robert Baratheon would see a woman he wanted to sleep with is less prophetic. Jon's cinders comment accurately, if not tactfully, reflects that obvious point. Mel's reaction is to say that she forsees his life is in danger. It really is a Sybill Trelawney out of Harry Potter moment. His follow up point about Alys not being Arya is very applicable here. She hasn't confirmed to him that she can identify people, she hasn't admitted the limits of what she knows, she hasn't told him what Mance is up to.

He talks to her because he knows she has power but can't trust either her or that power. Her inability to admit the limitations of even her past bad predictions doesn't help him trust her regarding her future predictions. This is just more of what we've seen before. I would love to see this from Mel's POV.

A small unrelated detour regarding the prophesy. <Begin Crackpot>

No one ever looked for a girl... It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female

That seems to mean prince=dragon in the original tongue. So wake dragons from stone could actually mean wake princes from stone referring to the Winterfell crypts.<End Crackpot>

Uncle Karstark

Despite his claims of Stark kinship he manifests no qualities that are "of the North." His bastard comment, his scheming, and his hatred of the Wildlings and use of " stinking savages" reeks of bloody southron fools.

You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first?” He laughed.

This is the same accusation Axell later makes regarding Val.

I should make his head a wedding gift for Lady Alys and her Magnar, Jon thought, but dare not take the risk. The Night’s Watch took no part in the quarrels of the realm; some would say he had already given Stannis too much help.

What I find most interesting here is that he doesn't consider arranging the Alys wedding "taking part" at all.

His offer of clemency to join the Watch shows he is constantly on the lookout for ways to strengthen it. It also allows him to "take part" in the Karhold conflict without actually taking part.

Jon also reflects on what Ned would do and again thinks "You know nothing, Jon Snow. His two most trusted advisors are the memories of dead people.

The Feast

“To King Stannis and his wife, Queen Selyse, Light of the North!” Ser Axell bellowed. “To R’hllor, the Lord of Light, may he defend us all! One land, one god, one king!”

Ok, I admit it, I hate Axell.

I suspect every Northman in that room would have killed Axell for calling Selyse the "Light of the North" if it weren't so funny. I also suspect they wanted to toast "one land, one god, one King" too.

Owen the Oaf took up his fiddle, and several of the free folk joined in with pipes and drums. The same pipes and drums they played to sound Mance Rayder’s attack upon the Wall. Jon thought they sounded sweeter now.

This sums up the accomplishment of the wedding along with Flint and Norrey attending. There has been some suspicion regarding their presence and the two wet nurses for Mance Rayder's baby of all things, This certainly represents a considerable degree of acceptance of the Free Folk. I can't help but wonder how many spearwives here were stolen from south of the wall and are reconnecting with relatives.

“Free folk is what they call themselves. Most, at least. The Thenns are a people apart, though. Very old.” Ygritte had told him that. You know nothing, Jon Snow. “They come from a hidden vale at the north end of the Frostfangs, surrounded by high peaks, and for thousands of years they’ve had more truck with the giants than with other men. It made them different.”

“Different,” she said, “but more like us.”

Even Alys looks at them and thinks, "more like us." This is another scene where the North vs South is very striking and brought home by characters Martin goes out of his way to portray as repugnant (we're looking at you, Axell) I can't help but wonder if the presence of these bloody southron fools drives this point home to every Northman in attendance.

I also love the way Alys flirts and teases with Jon. The two of them are practically as comfortable as Jon would be with Arya. I think there's hints that Alys would have preferred Jon but nothing that would be problematic. I also see this closeness as another North/South divide reminder.

When Owen the Oaf starts dancing with Patchface it is officially a party! Considering past events, the Wildling invasion, the number of men lost on Mormont's ranging, the threat of the wights, etc I can't help but think this is a huge and much needed morale boost for Castle Black.

[Tagganaro]

Some brief notes in response to Ragnorak:

I too was curious about why Melisandre was the one administering the wedding. It doesn't seem like Alys or Sigorn would be followers of the Red God. I guess going to say the vows in front of a heart tree was impractical, and that would leave the 7. Now maybe with a normally competent Septon this would be the choice, but we are talking about Septon Cellador here. Is there any more useless character in ASOIAF? Has he ever been described/shown to be doing something that helps anyone out? Any kind of priestly duties? Or does he just get drunk all day? I really need to figure this out. I love the brief mention of him popping up and then scurrying back to his hideout upon Mel's prayers. He was probably too wasted to even know what was happening.

The wedding itself is pure tactical brilliance on Jon's part. I don't think he sees himself as getting involved in affairs of the realm because he has taken on the mantle of Alys's host under guest right. That would be my guess- No idea if that's accurate or not. But anyway, that was just a masterstroke on Jon's part. To take 2 enemies and make them friends in one stroke was pretty great. Just awesome.

Alys herself is awesome as well. Some great chemistry with Jon and the mention of Arya's similarities was heartbreaking and powerful I agree. Great scene.

Cregan Karstark is hilarious. I like the comparison to Axell. Cregan's line about marrying Alys off to a "stinking savage" was precious. Yeah, us civilized Westerosi lords would rape and murder her (by the way, she's my niece) in an attempt to steal her birthright, and then hunt her like a dog when she escaped.

Finally, Mel is hilarious as well. There's something that's so brutal/abusive about her and Jon's relationship. Jon finally asks her for help and advice, and she is entirely useless. Yet she spends all this time thinking about ways to gain his trust, and the one time he asks her, she responds with "too much snow" and "He's AA, that's all I know, can't be dead." Oh Mel, you are too much. I also cracked up at Jon almost calling her out on her whole Stannis = AA theory ("But Stannis wasn't born on Dragonstone, he was just Lord there....so....")

Anyway, just a great chapter.

[Ragnorak]

I really hope I do not open a Pandora's box with these comments, but considering it's a thread meant to compare styles, I think it merits acknowledgement.

These two comments recall some earlier discussion in these threads and also frequent topics on the forum on Dany's regard to the people of Slaver's Bay. Dany losing her temper and making disparaging remarks or having rude thoughts about those around her is frequently viewed negatively while Jon's outburst to Ser Axell a bit more positively. As Loras points out, both Jon and Dany express contempt for cultures they do not entirely understand. I've done a quick mental tally and my best guess is that in total we have just as much exposure to Stannis' entourage as we do to the entourage in Slaver's Bay. Through discussion in these threads, I believe we've come to a consensus that those in Slaver's Bay aren't the fools we are led to think they are. So what's the difference in reader perception with the 'southron fools'? Is it simply personal bias? Has Jon proven a more trustworthy narrator? Does Jon have a better understanding of southern culture due to Cat's influence or does that influence negatively bias his opinion? Does the religious fanatic aspect play a part in collective distaste (at least within this thread)?

For the record, I pretty much hooted with satisfaction when I re-read that exchange between Jon and Axell and immediately thought, "Stupid southron fool." I'm just curious what in Jon's narrative encourages us to more readily accept his opinion of the southerners when his experience with their culture is similar to Dany's experience with the Meereenese culture.

I think Tze pretty much covered the rational explanations.

In general I think we've reached the conclusion that Dany's arc is less about leadership and more about resolving her own internal conflict. So Dany is basically supposed to make some poor leadership choices based on leaning too much toward one aspect or the other. It would have been nice to see Dany go into Meereen and say the Dragon took away your dignity and turned you into slavers 5000 years ago and now the Dragon is giving it back. The harpy is coming down and you will build a pyramid, one block for every ship that docks and trade caravan that visits. When that pryamid is the tallest structure in Meereen the harpy can be put back on top and not before, and then frame her entire leadership period as reshaping Meereen away from slavery.

But her arc wasn't about Astapor as a mistake and Meereen as the learning to lead period. Meereen was her mistake from which she will (I assume) later learn. I also like Lummel's phrasing of "Daenerys as the grass to Tyrion's snake." Dany's lack of a Westeros education combined with growing up outside Westeros makes her need a good set of advisors. The only two weddings she's ever seen were her own. To expect Dany to put together a wedding like Jon did here is unreasonable given her experience set. I think her willingness to abdicate so much to Hizdahr speaks to her need and desire for quality counsel, at least for a period of time. I suspect Tyrion will be the primary for that role in the immediate future along with Jorah, Barristan, and Missendei. Having resolved her internal struggle and surrounded by decent advisors we can start judging Dany on a more fair playing field.

I also agree with Tagganaro on the emotional reaction side. If Dany went all "blood of the dragon" on a different set of characters I think she would evoke a more positive emotional response. Her choice to steal the Unsullied as she did was poor in terms of long term trust, especially in business transactions-- but that guy was an ass and it was certainly enjoyable to read. I can't say it would be a wise choice, but if she went "all blood of the dragon" and offered to reopen the fighting pits if Hizdahr we're willing to go toe to toe with Drogon I would probably have had a better emotional reaction while reading it.

[Ragnorak]

Some brief notes in response to Ragnorak:

Now maybe with a normally competent Septon this would be the choice, but we are talking about Septon Cellador here. Is there any more useless character in ASOIAF? Has he ever been described/shown to be doing something that helps anyone out? Any kind of priestly duties? Or does he just get drunk all day? I really need to figure this out. I love the brief mention of him popping up and then scurrying back to his hideout upon Mel's prayers. He was probably too wasted to even know what was happening.

The septon had one moment of glory

the sound of skinpipes came wafting through the night like the songs of strange fierce birds. Septon Cellador began to sing as well, his voice tremulous and thick with wine.

Gentle Mother, font of mercy,

save our sons from war, we pray,

stay the swords and stay the arrows,

let them know…

But he goes from the pure awesome context of singing the same hymn Sansa does complete with bird imagery to

Mammoths trumpeted in the gloom, strange voices called out in stranger tongues, and Septon Cellador prayed so loudly and drunkenly for the dawn to come that Jon was tempted to chuck him over the edge himself.

and then to this

Septon Cellador cleared his throat. “Lord Slynt,” he said, “this boy refused to swear his vows properly in the sept, but went beyond the Wall to say his words before a heart tree. His father’s gods, he said, but they are wildling gods as well.”

So all things considered you were probably too kind to him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Nymeria and her wolfpack are doing just that.

I've said this before, but Nymeria had to be separated from Arya in order to save her life. It's not like Arya had better things to do than train her. I don't think you can fairly or reasonably compare Nymeria to the dragons. The time Arya actually got to spend with Nymeria, she used to actually train and bond with her.

ETA: Tze nailed it with her analysis of Axell. There's being diplomatic and then there's treating people how they deserve to be treated. Jon might do some ill-thought-out things in ADWD. Calling Axell Florent out on what he is isn't one of them and frankly I think it's kind of a limp complaint.