374 replies to this topic

[7V3N]

FanTasy, on 13 August 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

I'd have to re-read but isn't it in the Varamyr-chapter that you can't exist without a host body? Haggon died when Varamyr ripped his second life from him.
Varamyr for a while was everywhere, fragmented, before his true death and he finally found One-Eye.

_{edited ... fuzzy English}

Ah but exactly, he had that connection to One-Eye. But what if he had nowhere else? He would just be pushed into the world, with nowhere to go. Warging a human is an abomination, but why? Because it creates a wandering soul, destined to become a WW.

Again, haven't actually looked into this theory. It was just something that struck my mind.

[FanTasy]

The Shadow Fox, on 13 August 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Ah but exactly, he had that connection to One-Eye. But what if he had nowhere else? He would just be pushed into the world, with nowhere to go. Warging a human is an abomination, but why? Because it creates a wandering soul, destined to become a WW.

Again, haven't actually looked into this theory. It was just something that struck my mind.

Varamyr is indeed looking for his wolves, expecting they will save him.
I don't think skinchanging into a human is called abomination because it creates white walkers, though.
Haggon tought Varamyr what was abomination: to eat of human meat, to mate as wolf with wolf, to seize the body of another man.

[Eyron I]

The Shadow Fox, on 13 August 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Just an idea I wanted to bounce off you guys: the White Walkers are souls manifesting a form through ice, as many have theorized. But the souls come from those who were pushed out of there bodies, left to wander free of a body. Imagine if Varamyr had successfully pushed Thistle out--would she just sit in and remain dormant, or be pushed out of the body and be left as a soul without form?

That was what started me on this line of thought actually. The idea was that strong wargs could hold "together" and not dissipate into nature like they normally would. And strong enough + some magic something, to create a new form. Assuming the Others are wargs of course, which is the basis of this.

[Elaena Targaryen]

The Shadow Fox, on 13 August 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Ah but exactly, he had that connection to One-Eye. But what if he had nowhere else? He would just be pushed into the world, with nowhere to go. Warging a human is an abomination, but why? Because it creates a wandering soul, destined to become a WW.

Again, haven't actually looked into this theory. It was just something that struck my mind.

Ok I'll run with this but first a disclaimer for those who remain uptight; this will be crackpottry speculation for fun so deal with it!

Going off of Sadow Fox's idea about how WW are created then why not say this is why the Wall was built to stop any of these lost souls from turning into WW? Obviously the wildings have not helped and the way they steal women from south of the Wall adds to the troubles. Think about it though, the Wall does not seem to stop very much and it should stop something so maybe it's this.

Wights activated south of the Wall, Bran and Bloodraven can mess with things like dreams and such either way, direwolves and giants can pass, heck the magical Wall does not even stop Mel and maybe not dragons either. What are the two "magical" things that have been stopped? One is Coldhands who could be warged or it could have only been the Black Gate that was a barrier for him. The other was when Jon and Ghost were seperated when Jon scaled the Wall...Jon could not sense Ghost anymore...

Could it stand to crazy, crackpot, heretic reason that the only magic the Wall protects against is a warg "reaching out" trying to cross the barrier? Well that was my board fun for the day

[7V3N]

Building off of my recent idea, perhaps that is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell--they are naturally powerful wargs and therefore have a natural dominance/predisposed tolerance to warg connections. They are the only bloodline ensured to resist a warg pushing them out of their bodies, therefore are the perfect combatant for the White Walkers.

Now to get into some real speculation:
The maesters figured this all out at one point and chose to eliminate wargs as much as possible, rather than allow the Starks to be the watchers in the North. So they hatch a scheme to mix the bloodline: cue the Cat-Brandon betrothal.
This would basically eliminate them in the Seven Kingdoms and limit them to North of the Wall, where the wildlings and the old races can fight all they want, so long as it stays North of the Wall.

[Eyron I]

I'm going to have to start the next threadlet a little early since I have to sleep. This thread will go on to the next page while I sleep probably so keep watch for heresy 21!

How about that, our dear little thread is now eligible to go bar hopping even in the US *sniff* She's all grown up...

Well, in a little while at least. See you later...

[Aluminum Link]

Free Northman, on 12 August 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

But I guess to me the story of the Night's King shoud be given about the same level of credence as that of Ser Clarence Crabb who was 10 feet tall and tied a Dragon's neck into a knott so that it roasted its own arse when it breathed fire.

I am therefore astounded when an entire branch of theories of the Starks intermarrying with the Others is based on something as insubstantial as the offhand reference to some Lord Commander who went off the rails slightly.

hotweaselsoup, on 12 August 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The theory that the Starks are connected to the Others is based on far more than just the Night's King story.  The books are rife with accounts of humans intermingling with non-humans:

human (Durran) + wind goddess (Elenei) --> Storm Kings
human (Grey King) + mermaid ---> Iron Islanders
human (Ser Clarence Crabb) + woods witch ---> House Crabb
human (Garin) + pale grey woman ---> Rhoynar
human + children of the forest ----> Crannogmen
human + giants ----> Umbers

This is a list of pairings that are almost certainly mythical and never actually happened. They were fabricated by the respective houses/people to provide grandeur to themselves. I think this list only helps make Free Northman's point that the Night King's story should also be treated with an considerable amount of skepticism.

[Associate Maester]

Aluminum Link, on 13 August 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

This is a list of pairings that are almost certainly mythical and never actually happened. They were fabricated by the respective houses/people to provide grandeur to themselves. I think this list only helps make Free Northman's point that the Night King's story should also be treated with an considerable amount of skepticism.

Or the list points to mythologized events of encounters between human and magical\non-human entities.  There is just no reason to simply assume there aren't some shreds of truth there. Rather they point to some over-arching themes in the story.

Edited by Dreadfort81, 13 August 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[alienarea]

A question and a thought:

If my understanding of the timeline is correct, the Others appeared for the first time in during the Long Night (according to Old Nan). The Long Night was after the Hammer of the Waters? J/N

The CotF caused the Hammer of the Waters. Since the CotF are associated with earth and the counter element is water, I speculate the CotF caused the imbalanced seasons when they created the Hammer of the Waters by magic. In real life, the mass of the moon causes the tide. Did the mass of the Hammer of the Waters cause the Westeros moon to split open and birth the dragons as legends tell?

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

At 21 already.  Good gracious.

As these are the final throw-away posts of 20... allow me to take a moment to share something neat I found...

http://tolkienprofessor.com/wp/
Free online Tolkien classes.   I happened upon it the other day.  Neat indeed.

[Lannister Hamster]

The Shadow Fox, on 13 August 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Just an idea I wanted to bounce off you guys: the White Walkers are souls manifesting a form through ice, as many have theorized. But the souls come from those who were pushed out of there bodies, left to wander free of a body. Imagine if Varamyr had successfully pushed Thistle out--would she just sit in and remain dormant, or be pushed out of the body and be left as a soul without form?

Don't agree with that - Varymyr was portrayed as one of the strongest Wargs around and he couldn't push her out the body.

R'hallor has 1,000 followers (red priests) , it seems to be that the Great Other, diametrically opposed to R'hallor also only has 1,000 followers (white walkers).

We know something is not quite right with Melisandre but I think this will be reflected in the White Walkers

[Rains]

Free Northman, on 12 August 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Martin's supposed aversion to creating Sauron-like ultimate evil forces is an argument used to suggest that the Others may not be this all consuming threat to humans that we have been led to believe.

Well, in his novel of Dying of the Light, was the planet's receding orbit ''evil?'' No, it was simply a fact of nature, yet one that would lead to the anihilation of the human race nonetheless.

In the same way, the Others aren't necessarily bent on killing humans out of some twisted, evil desire. Instead, they are simply naturally incompatible with humans, as they require climactic conditions that are mutually exclusive with our existence.

There are lands North of the Wall which are perfect for the Others. And I sense no reason for them to come down South. Expansion? Maybe, but there are no signs of an overpopulation of Others anywhere North of the Wall.

It's conquest or bust.The Others are to humans what the Andals were to the First Men and the COTF.

[nanother]

Edit: removed and posted in the new thread instead

Edited by nanother, 14 August 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[hotweaselsoup]

Aluminum Link, on 13 August 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

This is a list of pairings that are almost certainly mythical and never actually happened. They were fabricated by the respective houses/people to provide grandeur to themselves. I think this list only helps make Free Northman's point that the Night King's story should also be treated with an considerable amount of skepticism.

See, I would agree with you if we were discussing real-world legends.  But we're talking about a fantasy world.  Where is the logic in dismissing stories from long ago as mere fabrications, when magical things are happening in the narrative right now?  We have fire-breathing dragons and humans riding shotgun in direwolves, and yet you are assuming the story of Durran marrying his wind goddess is "almost certainly mythical".  Why the magic now, and not then?  You are analyzing the history of a fantasy world as if it were the real world, but we have evidence that the rules of our universe don't necessarily apply to the universe of ASoIaF.  I'm not saying that the stories from the past should be swallowed whole - there is surely some embellishment going on - but I think it's a mistake to reduce these stories to mere tarted-up versions of pedestrian events, given the fantastical world in which they occurred.

[Aluminum Link]

hotweaselsoup, on 14 August 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

See, I would agree with you if we were discussing real-world legends.  But we're talking about a fantasy world.  Where is the logic in dismissing stories from long ago as mere fabrications, when magical things are happening in the narrative right now?  We have fire-breathing dragons and humans riding shotgun in direwolves, and yet you are assuming the story of Durran marrying his wind goddess is "almost certainly mythical".  Why the magic now, and not then?  You are analyzing the history of a fantasy world as if it were the real world, but we have evidence that the rules of our universe don't necessarily apply to the universe of ASoIaF.  I'm not saying that the stories from the past should be swallowed whole - there is surely some embellishment going on - but I think it's a mistake to reduce these stories to mere tarted-up versions of pedestrian events, given the fantastical world in which they occurred.

GRRM's world isn't really that magical in the grand scheme of things. It's the least magical world I've encountered in fantasy (even accounting for the fact that there is a magical lull during ASOIAF), which is one of the reasons why I find it so appealing.

No matter how magical the world, the people of it will still create stories that exagerate the status quo. Got no dragons, you make up stories with dragons. Already have dragons, you make up stories about bigger ones, nastier ones, etc. Some of the stories you list probably have a grain of truth in them. Some of those grains may have had magical elements. But given the framework that GRRM has created, I see no evidence for cross-species/cross-being/cross-entity breeding. Everything we have points to humans in GRRM's world breeding the same way as they do in our world, with the same restrictions and practicalities. In fact the fundamental plot line of AGoT was built around genetics.

This is only my opinion. And I'm not saying there's no room to be wrong, but I think the odds of there ever having been a 'wind goddess' are low and the odds of a human copulating with one are miniscule. Ditto for the mermaid, giant and CotF (the copulating part, not the existence part). Not zero, I admit. But that doesn't matter because the point that was originally being made by Free Northman was simply that an awful lot of stuff is being built on a very flimsy foundation. Yes, the stories cannot be conclusively refuted, nor should they be outright dismissed, but I'm not convinced it's worth basing layer upon layer of theory on.