Jump to content

[TWOW spoiler] Justin Massey sigil


rickard

Recommended Posts

Sorry if I duplicate a thread, but I didn't see one that got to this point (or question rather). In the new Theon chapter on GRRMs website, there's a sentence that strikes my interest. It is when Justin Massey is first sent in and theon has the following:

"Another knight, Theon knew, when Massey entered. This one was fair, with a neatly trimmed blond beard and thick straight hair so pale it seemed more white than gold. His tunic bore the triple spiral, an ancient sigil for an ancient House."

What is the significance of Massey's sigil? An ancient sigil for an ancient house? I may just be way off course but could someone clear this up for me? Is there more to Justin Massey than meets the eye? Thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

Hi Guys,



It's just saying that House Massey is an ancient house, hailing from Massey's Hook they were one of the first houses to support Aegon the conquerer, as he summoned them to dragonstone before he sailed for kings landing.


If your looking for foreshadowing, there could be some as House Massey was sworn to the Durrendon's (now Baratheon's) of Storm's End back in 1BC but chose to support the dragon over the stag, maybe it will happen again as Massey raises an army in Braavos


Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

I don't think there is more to Massey than meets the eye. He may marry Asha, or he may betray Stannis with th money(unlikely), but I don't think he has an ulterior motive. The sigil is pretty cool. I don't know the origins, but I was quite fascinated by the mazemakers of Lorath described in the World book. And the sigil looks like a maze (aerial view). But I don't know if the timeline supports Masseys to be descended from Lorathis. They are an ancient house, as you said. The colors are red(fire), blue(water) and green(earth) could mean something or nothing.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry if I duplicate a thread, but I didn't see one that got to this point (or question rather). In the new Theon chapter on GRRMs website, there's a sentence that strikes my interest. It is when Justin Massey is first sent in and theon has the following:

"Another knight, Theon knew, when Massey entered. This one was fair, with a neatly trimmed blond beard and thick straight hair so pale it seemed more white than gold. His tunic bore the triple spiral, an ancient sigil for an ancient House."

What is the significance of Massey's sigil? An ancient sigil for an ancient house? I may just be way off course but could someone clear this up for me? Is there more to Justin Massey than meets the eye? Thank you.

thank you for the thread! After closer look on the sigil, it is a maze, not three spirals. You enter through red, then go to green and then go to blue, then to the center of the maze. You think Massey could be derived from 'maze'?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thank you for the thread! After closer look on the sigil, it is a maze, not three spirals. You enter through red, then go to green and then go to blue, then to the center of the maze. You think Massey could be derived from 'maze'?

Makes me think of the Trident. Perhaps their sigil is a big hint about the Song of Ice and Fire. Red fork=Torrhen's surrender, Green fork=Robert's victory, Blue=?

Final battle at Seaguard perhaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Makes me think of the Trident. Perhaps their sigil is a big hint about the Song of Ice and Fire. Red fork=Torrhen's surrender, Green fork=Robert's victory, Blue=?

Ha! The trident matches well. Maybe some web of tunnels connecting Winterfell, Storms End and Rock/Highgarden(both houses have weirwoods) with its heart near High Heart or Gods eye?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Massey’s Hook is named after the house. I guess you have to be around for quite a while to have a large peninsula named after you – hence, ancient.


The triple spiral is a celtic design, and quite ‘primordial’ and geometric in comparison to the more pictoral sigils of other houses.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Massey is an old Norman name. Its basically Matthew - but the fact that it's Norman could mean something. Or maybe not - GRRM is a student of History and Invasions and there have been a lot of Massies and Macis and Massye's between France and England and Germany between 1000ad and now.




I was taught that the Triple Spiral meant Maiden, Mother, and Crone by my grandmother. That is a hell of a thing in an ASOIF sigil. Lots of meaning. I never realized that was his house sigil. The celtic version doesn't look like the version on ASOIF - its a lot more simple just one turn each from a central hub. Kind of like a Peach sign with the tip of each of the three arms looped around at the end.




I always figured Massey was First men because, well it's called Masseys hook and there doesnt seem to be an "old name" for it. The Sigil has to be Andal - while his description is almost Targaryan. Maybe the Green represents First Men, Blue - Andal, and Red Valyrian and evolved over time as the house intermarried and integrated.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Massey is an old Norman name. Its basically Matthew - but the fact that it's Norman could mean something. Or maybe not - GRRM is a student of History and Invasions and there have been a lot of Massies and Macis and Massye's between France and England and Germany between 1000ad and now.

I was taught that the Triple Spiral meant Maiden, Mother, and Crone by my grandmother. That is a hell of a thing in an ASOIF sigil. Lots of meaning. I never realized that was his house sigil. The celtic version doesn't look like the version on ASOIF - its a lot more simple just one turn each from a central hub. Kind of like a Peach sign with the tip of each of the three arms looped around at the end.

I always figured Massey was First men because, well it's called Masseys hook and there doesnt seem to be an "old name" for it. The Sigil has to be Andal - while his description is almost Targaryan. Maybe the Green represents First Men, Blue - Andal, and Red Valyrian and evolved over time as the house intermarried and integrated.

I too think the Masseys were First men. Why do you say the sigil had to be Andal? Because in real world is means maiden mother and crone? Or because sigils are Andal tradition?(Are they? idk)

The world book shows the simple spiral, but the wiki shows the maze-like sigil.

Wiki editor scafloc added the sigil a week before the release of DwD, later it was replaced by the one shown in the world book, and scafloc reverted it to the maze one, because it had higher resolution than the spiral one. I don't know who scafloc is or if they had specific directions from GRRM about sigils, but I am curious.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Massey.png

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Triple-Spiral-Labyrinth-animated.gif

Initially I thought the Masseys could be descended from the mazemakers, but the mazemakers are described to be larger than humans but smaller than giants. And Lorath is quite far and is an island, and First Men are not seafarers.

But the Blind god whose followers later came to Lorath believed that all life was scared and eternal, and everyone, rich, poor, man,beast, all were creatures of god. Also, they used eyeless hoods so that "only in darkness, they believed, would their third eye open, allowing them to see the higher truths of creations that lay concealed behind the world's illusion"

Some of these elements do match with the greenseers and old gods:

"Never fear the darkness, Bran." "Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong"

-Bloodraven to Bran in DwD

"Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this." And the tree reached down and touched him.

- Jon dreaming of three-eyed Bran in CoK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Massey is an old Norman name. Its basically Matthew - but the fact that it's Norman could mean something. Or maybe not - GRRM is a student of History and Invasions and there have been a lot of Massies and Macis and Massye's between France and England and Germany between 1000ad and now.

I was taught that the Triple Spiral meant Maiden, Mother, and Crone by my grandmother. That is a hell of a thing in an ASOIF sigil. Lots of meaning. I never realized that was his house sigil. The celtic version doesn't look like the version on ASOIF - its a lot more simple just one turn each from a central hub. Kind of like a Peach sign with the tip of each of the three arms looped around at the end.

I always figured Massey was First men because, well it's called Masseys hook and there doesnt seem to be an "old name" for it. The Sigil has to be Andal - while his description is almost Targaryan. Maybe the Green represents First Men, Blue - Andal, and Red Valyrian and evolved over time as the house intermarried and integrated.

...and people wonder why it takes GRRM soo much time to produce more material? Dude is saturating things down to the last detail with a dash of reality here and a splash of actual events there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

3 heads of the dragon

3 colours, blue for ice; red for fire; and green for the greenseers, who will watch the war between the two?

Maybe George just thought it was a pretty cool sigil for Stannis' coolest knight. Who knows?

Maybe it means something, or maybe it means nothing more than saying the house is very old, after all it seems they have some ties to the Valyrian families, and Justin does have a somewhat of a Valyrian look about him.

I wonder if Varys the spider doesn't have some little birds in everyones camp so to speak. He does not seem to like Stannis very much

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Massey really seems, to want titles land and to be married to a great house. If news reaches him that Stannis has fallen and he has all that money in hand I could see him as willing to switch sides pretty easily. The Massey's were one of the first houses to swear fealty aegon targaryen.



He was the one that convinced Stannis to retreat at Blackwater (not a bad ides in retrospect), and he was pressing Stannis to attack the dreadfort( a very bad idea). I sometimes wonder if he is in league with someone else. He is one of the Queensmen but he does not seem fanatical like they are. Although that would be a good thing usually, it makes me wonder if there is more to him. As I mentioned before he could be sending info to Varys or someone else

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thank you for the thread! After closer look on the sigil, it is a maze, not three spirals. You enter through red, then go to green and then go to blue, then to the center of the maze. You think Massey could be derived from 'maze'?

Massey --> Maze --> Maisie Williams --> Arya

Justin Massey is Arya as Faceless Man 10/10 confirmed. :cool4:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...