390 replies to this topic

[redriver]

Is this creature just an irritating specimen of avifauna or is it a key player in the Game of Thrones?

I propose to trace the bird's contribution to the  story throughout the novels, to examine forensically it's behaviour and dialogue,and to assess it's role in determining the future of Westeros.

Clearly this is an onerous task,therefore any assistance with the project would be welcomed.

A Game of Thrones.

Our first encounter with the raven occurs in Jon Snow's POV at the Wall.Ser Alliser Thorne has informed Jon that LC Mormont requires his presence.When he arrives we are given a description of Mormont and informed that he has "a raven on his arm,and he was feeding it kernels of corn".

So far,so good.The LC has a pet raven.Nothing to write home about.

Next he shakes the raven off,it flies to the window,watches Mormont draw out a roll of paper and hand it to Jon.At this point the bird makes it's first verbal contribution-"Corn,"it muttered in a raucous voice."Corn,corn"

We learn two things here.

First,the bird can speak.Not a major shock,as parrots on our own planet (Earth) have been known to talk.It doesn't reveal any great conversational skills and the reader is given the impression of a bird who can recite words in a limited and repetitive way.

Second,we become privy to the raven's dietary preferences.Corn.This sets it apart from the average raven we meet in the novel,who seems to prefer carrion or meat.No doubt corn is a healthy choice,it's rich in fibre (although the outer skin of the kernel is indigestible and passes out with the stool,as you may have noticed).

There are other interpretations of the word "corn",but let's take it at face value for now.

The letter informs Jon that his step-brother,Bran,albeit a cripple,is going to live.

Jon says,"My brother is going to live".Mormont shakes his head,whistles,gathers a handful of corn and the raven flies to his shoulder crying,"Live!Live".

Whilst the reader could be forgiven for assuming that the bird is merely repeating the last word of Jon's sentence,the reader might also subconsciously wonder if the bird is rejoicing in the good news that Bran is going to live.

We will follow the exploits of the strange,enigmatic bird from a Tyrion POV soon.

Edited by redriver, 09 August 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[Ser Wun Wun]

When Jon fights the wight in AGOT the raven helps him by screaming out 'burn! burn!' with abolutely no provocation whatsoever.  No one said the words, so it wasn't just mimicking sounds.  It was actually telling Jon how to kill the wight.

It also inexplicably helped Jon get elected LC because of that stunt where it flew out of the pot and landed on Jon's shoulder.  Sam swore he had nothing to do with that.

The best theory I've read on these forums that explains this kind of behavior is that the bird is being warged by Bloodraven, who is keeping an eye on Jon.  If R+L=J is true then that would definitely make sense.

Edited by Ser Wun Wun, 09 August 2012 - 03:33 AM.

[redriver]

Ser Wun Wun, on 09 August 2012 - 03:32 AM, said:

When Jon fights the wight in AGOT the raven helps him by screaming out 'burn! burn!' with abolutely no provocation whatsoever.  No one said the words, so it wasn't just mimicking sounds.  It was actually telling Jon how to kill the wight.

It also inexplicably helped Jon get elected LC because of that stunt where it flew out of the pot and landed on Jon's shoulder.  Sam swore he had nothing to do with that.

The best theory I've read on these forums that explains this kind of behavior is that the bird is being warged by Bloodraven, who is keeping an eye on Jon.  If R+L=J is true then that would definitely make sense.

All true.But we are getting ahead of ourselves.

This is a temporally sequential examination of the bird,introducing R+L=J is at this stage is premature to say the least.

The bird never says R+L=J,btw.

[Damon_Tor]

Particularly clever ravens are supposed to be the ones that have been used quite a bit as warg skins, right?  This raven has a strong connection to Jeor Mormont and John Snow.  Now, there are many theories out there that say that Benjen Stark was a minor warg of some sort.  Do we think it's possible Benjen uses the raven to keep tabs on Castle Black while he's away?  A raven who sits on the LC's shoulder all day will learn a whole lot more than one stuck in the rookery after all.

[FittleLinger]

redriver,



There was an interesting theory that "Corn" was a hint to a celtic mythology myth about the Corn King. Is the time now, or do you want to make a thorough factual statement through the books at this point?

[Naathi Prince]

how do the Celts have a Corn King? Corn is American, is it not?

[FittleLinger]

From a Celtic mythology site:

The final celebration of the agricultural year is Lughnasadh (Lammas in England), the feast of the god Lugh and the first fruits of the harvest (generally wheat or corn)

Edited by FittleLinger, 09 August 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Rohed]

Brans chapters he climbs the old tower and always gives them corn.. Connection?

[plurabel]

I think this is a great idea, especially if we assume mormont's raven is being warged by someone (most likely BR but maybe benjen, although come on, who isn't convinced it's BR's puppet?)

[Quentyn the Blazed]

Rohed, on 09 August 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Brans chapters he climbs the old tower and always gives them corn.. Connection?

Those are crows

[Lord of Insignificance]

Mormonts Raven should be a POV in the next book instead of Bran

[redriver]

FittleLinger, on 09 August 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

redriver,



There was an interesting theory that "Corn" was a hint to a celtic mythology myth about the Corn King. Is the time now, or do you want to make a thorough factual statement through the books at this point?

Not at all.If you wish to expand on the Celtic Myth,feel free.

I'd be interested.

[Tagganaro]

This is a fantastic idea redriver.  I'll certainly be following along.

[Rohed]

for the hell of it i googled meaning of corn i got:

Corn ¹  Definition: A thickening of the epidermis at some point, esp. on the toes, by friction or pressure. It is usually painful and troublesome.

cracky potty!!
I KNOW! its talking about corns on the feet or whatever.. but the whole ice armour dream.. and the definition useing friction or pressure brings to mind the fact that it took Bran an event before he could open his third eye, and what we can see with Jon and the theory of his stabbing will cause him to gain his true power/ability.

Corn could possibly just be a forshadow that an event with "friction/pressure" will cause an outcome. Do we only hear the Raven in Jon's POV ?

[redriver]

We next meet the creature in Tyrion's POV.He is being wined and dined by the NW High Command before he leaves the Wall.

Tyrion is mocking Ser Alliser.He pokes him in the chest with a crab fork and asks,"shall we duel?".Everyone laughs and the bird joins in,crying "
duel,duel,duel".

Again,this is a repetition of Tyrion's last word,so still in parrot mode it seems.

Later in the chapter,Mormont is lamenting having sent Waymar Royce out ranging,saying-"More fool I".

"Fool" the raven agreed.Tyrion glanced up.The bird peered down at him with those beady black eyes,ruffling it's wings."Fool",it called again.

Tyrion feels like strangling the bird,but it looks like the bird has insulted both Mormont and Tyrion.Perhaps it's chiding them for regarding Wildlings as the true enemy.

That's the end of the raven's verbal input to this chapter,but it's worth noting that it is present throughout the conversation between Mormont and Tyrion,during which they discuss Jon Snow,the state of the Night's Watch ,including the dismal prospect of Thorne or Marsh taking charge,and the threat of White Walker's,which Tyrion dismisses.

So,the bird may be more intelligent than we thought and it is privy to high level discussions/decision making in the Night's Watch.

ETA;This is the first time the bird chooses a word from the middle of a sentence to repeat.

Edited by redriver, 09 August 2012 - 12:45 PM.

[Dornish Piss]

They say ravens used to be able to speak, that initially they didn't have to send messages with the ravens because the ravens could just recite the messages themselves. Is there a chance that the raven isn't being warged at all, but that he's just a really smart raven in the vein of the old ravens?

[redriver]

Tagganaro, on 09 August 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

This is a fantastic idea redriver.  I'll certainly be following along.

And feel free to join in.It's slightly tongue-in-cheek and light hearted,but we may learn something!

[Donuil23]

Naathi Prince, on 09 August 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

how do the Celts have a Corn King? Corn is American, is it not?

Corn in the European sense is just an umbrella term for grain.
Corn in the North American sense is what one would call maise in Europe, ie. corn on the cob.

So that Celtic King is basicaly a grain king.

[redriver]

Dornish Piss, on 09 August 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

They say ravens used to be able to speak, that initially they didn't have to send messages with the ravens because the ravens could just recite the messages themselves. Is there a chance that the raven isn't being warged at all, but that he's just a really smart raven in the vein of the old ravens?

At this stage,I think that's all we can assume.

[Rohed]

Dornish Piss, on 09 August 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

They say ravens used to be able to speak, that initially they didn't have to send messages with the ravens because the ravens could just recite the messages themselves. Is there a chance that the raven isn't being warged at all, but that he's just a really smart raven in the vein of the old ravens?

I think they use to sing though. Somewhere it mentions it.. i cant remember, but thats what gives reason to beleave Val has been talking to the birds (Jon hears her singing in the tower)