386 replies to this topic

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

Don't get me wrong, I like Dany for what she is doing in slaver's bay and attempting to give equality to the masses there but when it comes to reclaiming Westeros I think she starts becoming hypocritical. She goes on about the usurper's dogs, and almost forgets the reasoning for Robert's war. Oh its okay for Rhaegar to openly defy his own wife in public, it's okay to steal a woman away, its okay to then burn her brother and farther in the most horrific fashion possible. She goes on about Robert taking her throne when the Targeryens forcefully took westeros many years ago. This is where I prefer Aegon, if he his actually Aegon, he doesn't seem bitter about the past, he seems like he doesn't hold false grudges from events that have only been told by word of mouth. Although Dany doesn't know that Ned and Robert in the end spared her life and called of her assination she still classes them as "Dogs". Would she really let houses such as the Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns be if they bent the knee ?, I don't think she would but I think Aegon would, Jon Connington after all was nearly tempted to call on the Vale. I'd be pretty pissed off at the people that killed most of my family, but if my family were murderer's then I'd definitely sit back and think, am I doing this for the right reason ?. Dany dreams of revenge and domination over Westeros but real/fake Aegon gives signs of actually wanting to make a difference in Westeros, for me, I hope Dany stays her side of the Narrow Sea, where she is actually beneficial to the people there

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

* I didn't put the apostrophe in the title

[mchaza]

She has never been told how the Usurpers stole their crowd and how mad their father was. She was in the free cities who wouldn't know much of the details nor would really tell them, nor would her brother know either, he was just a child. The only poeple who knew the ins and out of the reasons for why the War started are mostly dead too, other than Ser Barriston, Jamie Lannister, probably Jon Connington and a few others. I doubt many would know that Rhaegar started it by stealing Lynana Stark then the most common start being Areys burning Lord Rikkon alive (which would be common among those of the time).

[Lummel]

What signs does Aegon give of actually wanting to make a difference in westeros (and what kind of difference does he want to make)?

[Dany4eva]

Most of what u have said is false. She does not know how they 'spared' her life and neither does she know full details of the rebellion which she will hopefully find out soon.

Aegon did not lead the crazy life dany had with viserys on the run. And aegon has had a lot of education and training.

Her family forged the iron throne not the original westerosi, so it belongs to the targs.

We do not know how dany plans to rule westeros but we do know that she has good intentions and a conscience.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, pretty much. And far, far worse. Tyrant, Mad Queen, incompetent are some other things she is.

It's natural for her, she has a genetic weakness for madness, she wasn't educated at all, she was raised by her abusive, mad brother who was himself a child and she was sold to a pedophile murderer more than twice her age at 13. Then dealt with a lot of horrid experiences like birthing a stillborn monster babe and some such. Of course she has serious issues.

Such face-heel turns are unexpected in fantasy literature, but so were Neds death and the Red Wedding.

[mormont]

Born amidst salt and smoke, on 10 August 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

* I didn't put the apostrophe in the title

There shouldn't be an apostrophe in the title. You were right the first time.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

You just realize now? Most POVs are hypocrites.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

For me Dany's hypocrisy is that she always say that she will go back to her people (false, the Valyrians are her people) to free them etc but she will take what is hers by fire and blood. Meaning that she want to kill her people, because in what other way she could do this? By garden tea party?

And the fact that she knows that she is from Valyria and still think that Westeros is hers. Also that she keeps calling the Baratheons usurpers (when the truth is that they win the throne after Realm's rebellion, which means that almost no one wanted them) but she usurp by conquer Mereen and act as a queen (people didn't rebel against the goverment, she went and killed people and took the throne.)

[David Selig]

How exactly is this hypocritical? The rebels killed most of her family (most of which had nothing to do with the executions of the Starks and their followers which Aerys ordered) and forced her and her brother into exile. Of course she'd hate them.

[mormont]

Born amidst salt and smoke, on 10 August 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I like Dany for what she is doing in slaver's bay and attempting to give equality to the masses there but when it comes to reclaiming Westeros I think she starts becoming hypocritical. She goes on about the usurper's dogs, and almost forgets the reasoning for Robert's war.

She knows very little about it, to be fair.

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Oh its okay for Rhaegar to openly defy his own wife in public, it's okay to steal a woman away, its okay to then burn her brother and farther in the most horrific fashion possible.

For example, there's no evidence she knows anything about the bolded bit: in fact, it's unclear how many people in Westeros even know about it. And she has been told a very different story about the first bit.

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She goes on about Robert taking her throne when the Targeryens forcefully took westeros many years ago. This is where I prefer Aegon, if he his actually Aegon, he doesn't seem bitter about the past, he seems like he doesn't hold false grudges from events that have only been told by word of mouth.

We have very little to go on as far as Aegon's attitude is concerned, of course. We don't have a single Aegon POV, let alone the number of chapters we've had from Dany. But I guess the main point is that Aegon regards the throne as his on grounds that seem just as questionable. He bases his claim on the Blackfyre claim, so naturally he takes Robert's rebellion less personally, but he clearly has the same vulnerability to 'hypocrisy' you mention as applying to Dany - as any Targ claimant would.

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Although Dany doesn't know that Ned and Robert in the end spared her life and called of her assination she still classes them as "Dogs".

This sentence doesn't really make sense when it includes the word 'although'. I mean, yeah, she doesn't know that, so obviously she can't take it into account. And if she did, is she supposed to forgive Robert for trying to have her assassinated, because he changed his mind on his deathbed - when it was too late?

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Would she really let houses such as the Baratheons, Starks, Tullys and Arryns be if they bent the knee ?, I don't think she would but I think Aegon would

That's fine and all, but absent any evidence or argument, it's equally valid to say that she would.

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

She's right to hate the Lannisters, but overlooks why the Baratheons and Starks joined the war in the first place, because her family were murderers and thought they could get away with doing what they wanted, I just hope someone tells Dany what Aerys was planning to do with Kings Landing

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Dany4eva, on 10 August 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

Most of what u have said is false. She does not know how they 'spared' her life and neither does she know full details of the rebellion which she will hopefully find out soon.

Aegon did not lead the crazy life dany had with viserys on the run. And aegon has had a lot of education and training.

Her family forged the iron throne not the original westerosi, so it belongs to the targs.

We do not know how dany plans to rule westeros but we do know that she has good intentions and a conscience.

Well the OP said Dany doesn't know they spared her. Her family did forge the iron throne indeed. If she wants it so bad I'm sure they'd be happy to send it to Slavers Bay. And we don't know how she plans to rule but the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

[mormont]

Jon, on 10 August 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

For me Dany's hypocrisy is that she always say that she will go back to her people (false, the Valyrians are her people) to free them etc but she will take what is hers by fire and blood. Meaning that she want to kill her people, because in what other way she could do this? By garden tea party?

And the fact that she knows that she is from Valyria and still think that Westeros is hers.

Dany was born in Westeros, to a family that had lived there for 300 years. Meantime, Valyria is a smoking, uninhabited ruin. I think these two facts more or less show the above argument to be nonsense.

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

I think some people are misunderstanding some parts. Dany is dead set on "taking what is hers with fire and blood", all I'm saying is she's planning an invasion on very little information and motives, she unclear who she'll spare, who she ally with, what justice will be done, she just wants to get over there and plop herself on the Iron Throne. If we look at the Slaver's Bay situation, she met the people, learned their troubles, been amongst them, and also been amongst her enemies, and look what she's done in Slavers Bay, my hat goes off to her, she's done this part of the world a good deed because she's travelled the land and experienced the people, she rightfully knows who to trust, who not to and what justice to give people, this is the reason why she needs to learn more about Westeros and its near history before shouting " Fire and blood" riding her dragon and burning everyone over there. She might actually be a good queen if she was just patient and learns to let go of grudges. Heck, even Robert ensued some sort of peace with people who fought against him, you didn't see him burning Dorne when they did not exactly help to get Lynna back

[Jon's Queen Consort]

mormont, on 10 August 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Dany was born in Westeros, to a family that had lived there for 300 years. Meantime, Valyria is a smoking, uninhabited ruin. I think these two facts more or less show the above argument to be nonsense.

True but she always says that she is the blood of old Valyria. She always mention Valyria. So why not rule the Valyrian colonies?Or even Dragonstone where her family settled. Like the Starks wanted independance for the North where most of the families where from the First Men and their family settled, they didn't wanted the Realm.

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

This is also why you have to champion Aegon at the moment. Dany has not exactly had the best of companions to tell her true, Jorah just wanted her so told or sorts of lie's with hints of truth, Barristan only knows how to serve, so doesn't exactly act on what's best only on who's next in line. Illyrio was just a plotter, and Viserys was mad. Now compare this to Aegon, I like Jon Connington. He could of burned the town Robert was hiding in but didn't. He would ask the Vale to fight for Aegon, even though they fought against him previously

[tws1978]

We really don´t know what Dany will do when/if she is in the position to fulfill her revenge promisses. She loves her blood and fire speaches, but then goes and protects even the children of her direct Meereen enemies who were taken as hostages. And she forgives very easily. Barristan becomes one of her main confidant just because he says he likes her and all the 20 years he was faithfull to the Usurper is forgotten. Even Jorah came this close to forgiveness and he was a traitor. And she still only banished him, anybody else would put him to a sword with no question asked.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think Dany is hypocritical when it comes to Westeros, but I think your reasonings are a bit misplaced.  It's painfully obvious that Dany is ill-informed about Westeros and the causes of the Rebellion.  Most of her education came from Viserys, who was mad, ignorant, and arrogant.  Dany's use of "Usurper's Dogs" to identify Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Lannister families to me implies that Viserys brand of education was actually more consistent with typical scary bedtime stories.  The problem is that Dany doesn't really know all that much about Westeros or Robert's Rebellion so she can't really be seen as hypocritical when she doesn't know what she doesn't know.

Dany's true hypocrisy when it concerns Westeros is apparent when she's holding court in Meereen and she rules that a woman lost the right to her house when she fled it during the fighting.  It's a pretty significant parallel to Dany's own history and desires with Westeros.

I don't think there is any actual evidence that Aegon desires to make a positive difference in Westeros.  We don't have an Aegon POV but we do have anecdotal evidence that he believes he's the rightful king of the Iron Throne and that he thinks he's deserving because he is a dragon.  Consider the Volantis history lesson he recites which ends with (paraphrasing here) "If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons."  As far as I recall, there is never an instant where he says anything about how he intends to make Westeros a better place.

[Born amidst salt and smoke]

And I'd like to say, okay the Usurpers killed her family, one of which was mad, surely she can't forgive right ? Oh wait a minute, wasn't there a drunken mad brother who got killed by, oh her husband. she could of stopped it, he could of been banished, imprisoned ...