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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X


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#1 brashcandy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:56 PM

Rethinking 10 guys /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> (add in the rereads and it's our 16th incarnation) /communist.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':commie:' />

(Rethinking IX)

(Original Reread links)



Our last thread went ahead pretty quickly, so whilst it filled with the usual great conversations, we're still working on the thread projects listed in that OP, the Sansa FAQ and the Rethinking manifesto. Also, we've embarked on a companion project to the earlier one on women, looking now at the male influences in Sansa's life. No presentations have been made yet, and we still have a few openings left for interested members. I'm going to repost the original explanation of what we're looking for below. We have some fab contributors already lined up and it should make for lots of stimulating discussions.

xx

Edited by brashcandy, 14 August 2012 - 11:51 AM.


#2 brashcandy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:58 PM

Ok my lovelies, it's that time again /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Most of you will be familiar with the project that took place a couple threads ago where we analysed the influence other women have had on Sansa's development and experiences. Some of the analyses leant themselves to a strictly compare and contrast discussion, whereas others delved into questions relating to agency, empowerment, sexuality and love. We are now hoping to do the same for the male characters who have had direct influence in Sansa's life, or who have relevance to her storyline in some form or fashion. Basically, the aim is to do a short (or ridiculously long, no complaints from me) analysis on each male figure, concentrating overall on the interactions shared, what life lessons they may have imparted, how they've contributed to Sansa's growth, and any other goodies (foreshadowing, symbolism, etc) you would like to talk about. As we've seen with the earlier look at the women, these kinds of structured discussions can be very beneficial in helping to expand our appreciation on the particular relevance of characters, the role they have played/continue to play in Sansa's arc, and the overall question of gender roles and patriarchal power in Westeros. Given that Sansa is one of the most "shipped" characters in the fandom, it's clear that many readers view the presence of men in her life as fulfilling one main purpose; however, I'd like to open up these narrow visions, and really get into nitty gritty analysis of greater importance represented by these characters, along with considerations of how Sansa can interact with them outside of the traditional focus on marriage bait.


Here are the list of men we will be examining:

Ned (Lady Candace) completed
Jon (tze) completed
Robb (mythsandstuff) Part 1
Loras &Willas (Lady Lea) completed
Joffrey (Summerqueen)
Sandor (Lord Bronn Stokeworth) Part 1
Tyrion (House Draper)
Littlefinger (Pod the Impaler)
Jaime (kittykatknits)
Lothor (Caro99)
Marillion (Ragnorak) completed
Sweetrobin (KRBD)
Dontos (Elba the Intoner) completed
Bran&Rickon (brashcandy)

If you are interested in doing an analysis, please contact me via PM, or I'll contact you /devil.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':devil:' /> I'll update this post to reflect who's doing what. I must admit that I'm particularly interested in getting some male perspectives on these characters, so gents who frequent the thread, feel free to step up to the plate /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> There's no set deadline really. I'd say that from the time your contribution is confirmed, you can take up to a week to present your post, and longer if need be.

Edited by brashcandy, 25 August 2012 - 02:46 PM.


#3 Winter's Knight

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 10:59 PM

16th reincarnation? You are now a thread grown!
We should take all the other threads out clubbing to celebrate said adulthood.

#4 brashcandy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:05 PM

Last post from Rethinking IX - from Pod the Impaler

A lot of the speculation of a Sansa / Sandor Clegane marriage, and whether that is socially acceptable or not seems to ignore a few practical realities:

- Who the hell is going to object to her marrying beneath her station? Her parents ? JonSnow ? Arya ? Bran or Rickon who are both far from adulthood?

- The fact that Clegane was never a knight is something for people to gossip about, but the man is a reknowned killer, and was in the Kingsguard, so nobody is seriously going to rub that in his face. And it is stated that in the North, knighthood is hardly a matter of concern, and there of plenty of lords' heirs who fight and rule and have never had a "Ser" attached to their name either.

- And anyway, consider how both of them are essentially outlaws, enemies of the Iron Throne now.

But here's the most important consideration of social standing:

There is a war on, and those boundaries of social class bends and breaks according to the needs of war.
War takes many nobles and casts them down to be nothing. More than anything, war is also responsible for the raising up new nobles. It is corrosive to social stasis and rules. This is not peacetime - social respect and acceptance flows primarily from the use of force.



[img]http://asoiaf.westeros.org/public/style_images/asoiaf/snapback.png[/img]Lyanna Stark, on 10 August 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:


As of now, Sandor is on minus, due to being a deserter and a wanted fugitive.



Again, depends on who wins the war, and who's left alive.

#5 Kittykatknits

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:10 PM

16th reincarnation? You are now a thread grown!
We should take all the other threads out clubbing to celebrate said adulthood.


I think these threads are now fit for wedding and bedding.

#6 Winter's Knight

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:13 PM

I think these threads are now fit for wedding and bedding.


Stop making me think dirty thoughts, you're a woman wed and a mother besides!

#7 TNine

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:14 PM

Oh god, i just realized that if this thread goes on too long, we might have a problem:

"From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XXX"

Might send the wrong message.

#8 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:17 PM

Too late. The "Sansa X" post was already in the mail!

Manderly - lord Wyman is immensely fat, but also single.


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! SanFat! SanFat! Make it so! When Stannis finds out about Sansa, this just must be the match he proposes. It's perfect.

I like this.


Edited by The Mother of The Others, 13 August 2012 - 03:55 PM.


#9 Lady Lea

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:28 PM

Last post from Rethinking IX - from Pod the Impaler

But here's the most important consideration of social standing:

There is a war on, and those boundaries of social class bends and breaks according to the needs of war.
War takes many nobles and casts them down to be nothing. More than anything, war is also responsible for the raising up new nobles. It is corrosive to social stasis and rules. This is not peacetime - social respect and acceptance flows primarily from the use of force.


This is really important and in the end I think it will end up making all the difference. I updated my last post http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3496371 to show how the Northern Houses stand right now. Not many people left! And a lot of females. Also, not many marriageable males. Really, the only one who would even be a good/appropriate match is Harry Karstark, and since Alys and himself owe a lot to Jon Snow I think he'll let whatever perceived slight slide.

I think it's very realistic to expect some new lords in the North very soon.

#10 brashcandy

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:56 AM

This is really important and in the end I think it will end up making all the difference. I updated my last post http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3496371 to show how the Northern Houses stand right now. Not many people left! And a lot of females. Also, not many marriageable males. Really, the only one who would even be a good/appropriate match is Harry Karstark, and since Alys and himself owe a lot to Jon Snow I think he'll let whatever perceived slight slide.

I think it's very realistic to expect some new lords in the North very soon.


Thanks LL /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> I've copied it out below for those interested in responding:

Looking into this now.

Bolton - turned cloak, doesn't count
Cassel - only Beth left. If she's still alive.
Cerwyn - only a female heir left.
Condon - apparently there is a Ser Kyle Condon
Dustin - only Lady Barbrey
Fenn - unknown
Flint of Flint's Finger - unknown
Flint of Widow's Watch- only Lady Lyessa. Her son and heir died at the RW
Glover - Robett is married to Sybelle Locke. They have a daughter (1 yo) and a son (3 yo). Robett's brother Galbart is currently missing (Robb sent him to find Greywater Watch)
Hornwood - there is a 12-yo Larence Snow, and one Lady Berena Hornwood, sister-in-law to the late Lady Donella (who Ramsay killed)
Ironsmith - unknown
Karstark - Harry Karstark is being held captive, but is single and young. His heir is Alys.
Lake - unknown
Lightfoot - unknown
Locke - Lord Ondrew is an old man and toothless. Sybelle Locke is married to Robett Glover (see above)
Manderly - lord Wyman is immensely fat, but also single. His son Ser Wylis is married. Ser Wylis has two daughters: Wynafryd (19) and Wylla (15). There is a cousin, Ser Marlon Manderly.
Marsh - Bowen is at the Wall. Otherwise, unknown
Mollen - Hallis Mollen is captain of the guard at Winterfell. Whereabouts unknown
Mormont - Lady Maege is missing. She has four living daughters. There's also Jorah I guess.
Moss - unknown
Overton - unknown
Poole - only Jeyne left
Reed - Lord Howland is married. There is Meera and Jojen
Ryswell - there is Lord Rodrik but he's probably old because he's Lady Dustin's father. He has 3 "quarrelsome cousins" (all 3 male)
Slate - unknown
Stout - petty lords (vassals to House Dustin). There is a Lord Harwood and a Ronnel Stout
Tallhart - Lady Eddara is 9. Her heirs are her cousins Brandon (14) and Beren (10)
Umber - the Greatjon is a captive of the Frey's. Crowfood is old. Whoresbane.
Waterman - unknown
Wells - unknown
Whitehill - unknown
Woolfield - Leona Woolfield is married to Wylis Manderly.

FINAL TALLY: there are currently 8 Ladies. Could possibly turn into more. 13 unknowns. Only about 5 marriageable men for a young woman: Larence Snow, Jojen Reed, Harry Karstark (best option by far), Brandon Tallhart (an heir, but good enough), this Ser Kyle Condon maybe (we don't know much about him). Maybe Mollen? I don't know how old he is or even if he is still alive.

#11 Lady Candace

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:17 AM

Oh gosh, am I really going first? FML. /leaving.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':leaving:' />

I'll be honest, I felt a lot of trepidation picking Ned as the person I wanted to analyze with Sansa, let alone me completing an analysis at all. I think that you all are so much better at it. In the end, though, I trudged on, and I hope that my points will be of interest, and can facilitate a healthy little discussion. This father and daughter dynamic, their similarities, their divergences; they were quite fun to explore.

So, for Sansa, and for Winterfell, read on!

An Analysis of Sansa & Ned

by: Candace


In our modern society, father-daughter relationships are characterized in a few ways. We can begin with the image of the nuclear family: father, mother, one sister, and one brother - a quartet of familial perfection. Ofttimes, the children will each be a clone of one parent, and each parent is always represented. Sometimes you get a daughter like the father, other times (it seems more frequent) that the girl is portrayed with the looks and qualities of the mother. There is also that warm concept of a "daddy's little girl," a princess who is the apple of her patriarch's eye and is given everything by him. This portrayal is typically not that the daughter is similar to the father, but rather that she is beloved by him. It knocks at the door of gender roles, suggesting that due to the sex of the family members, the daughter is beneath the father, cannot aspire to be like him, but is patted on the head for being a sweet little girl.

Those are the modern ideals, oddly. However, things are slightly modified as they appear in this saga, even from the very beginning, in AGoT.

From the start, it would appear more that the role of Daddy's little girl is taken up by Arya. She has Ned's look, and he is quite fond of her to boot. Early on, Sansa remarks, during their trip down the Kingsroad, that Ned does not ever punish Arya for running wild in the mud and the swamps, but rather thanks her for the flowers she gathers in those places. Sansa's older model is her mother, Catelyn, as at this time, Sansa is invested in learning the ways of being a proper lady, and it's only natural that she would look to her mother for guidance, as well as her septa, too. Some of Sansa's interests however, and her nature are very reminiscent of her father, even then.

Bran I, AGoT, Kindle Version Page 12:

He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest.



A large subtext in Sansa's character arc has been the stories and songs of Westeros. Granted, Ned is no bard, but knowing that he would sit around the fire with his children and tell them stories, it does seem to hint at where her initial interest might have been sparked. Ned puts stock in his gods more than he does "nursery tales" but he doesn't have to believe in them to tell them to the kids, and Sansa from a young age probably would have listened to everything a parent said, and been in wonderment of it.

Apart from just flights of fancy, this event in her childhood, as well as being a part of Ned's persona, is the ability to know many things and to recite them. Ned knows his bannermen, he knows the tales from wars and histories, and it seems that he has imparted at least some of those to his offspring. If we take into account outside examples, not every noble was brought up to be so mindful of the past and of the interpersonal dynamics of various houses.

Yet, Sansa for one is always expounding about these sorts of tidbits in her POV. She pays attention to people, which in the end contributes to her compassion, empathy, and social skills. Her father was not a savant as far as courtly social games and politicking, but he did possess the other traits - a good heart, and ability to notice others. Luckily for Sansa, she is Ned 2.0 in the fact that she has taken these graces to a whole new level of acumen, and she can use them to further herself and protect herself in the world. She is far better at expressing herself and taking note of things than Ned was. Though, I will say, that was developed over time, and is due to some tutelage, indirect or otherwise, by persons in her life like Sandor and Littlefinger. I'll leave that to those who are analyzing them, though.

Bran I, AGoT, Kindle Version Page 12:

He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.



So many characters in ASOIAF wear two or more identities, faces, masks. Sometimes it is literally a new face, as in the case of the FM and Jaqen. Other times it is that the character must masquerade as another, such as Jeyne Poole as "Arya Stark," Sansa as "Alayne Stone," or Tyrion as "Hugor Hill." Finally, the new face can be a subconscious split, as if two people are housed within one body - Petyr vs. Littlefinger, Ned vs. Lord Stark. Indeed, identity is one of those overarching themes of the series, and so it is unsurprising to see it played with in two central characters such as Ned and Sansa. From the above quote courtesy of Bran, we learn that the Stark children's father has a personal and a "professional" side to him.

Ned's personal side can be argued to be like his heart, and his professional like his brain. He is a loving father in truth, but his other truth is that he is Lord over a great domain, and must rule. He seems to understand that the two are exclusive, and he has adapted a second persona to cover all bases. This is one of the lessons on the path to adulthood, that there are times and situations where one must modulate their behavior, whether one likes it or not.

Sansa undergoes this lesson in her arc, starting from the King's Landing period when she builds her shield of courtesy to hide behind, and she becomes the obedient little bird trapped in a cage. She takes this to new heights with her adoption of Alayne Stone, a mask that she grows and entwined with more and more as time passes, to where her current chapters are headed as Alayne, and the writing within refers to her as such. Instead of professional necessity, Sansa’s other face is one she requires for survival. Because, to be Sansa Stark at this time in the novels is a questionable thing, and it's a dangerous name to wear.

However, as we have read, there are times when both Sansa and Ned creep out from behind their masks. We have Ned in his later days, dreaming of home and wishing he had never come to King's Landing. That all he wants is to be at home with his wife and children, in Winterfell. We have Sansa, declaring inwardly that she is not LF's daughter, but the blood of Eddard and Catelyn Stark, and she also builds her castle in the snow, nostalgic of home. I find it intriguing that both father and daughter seem to have simple wants and needs. Even when Sansa was young, naive, and dreaming of Joffrey, she did not want to marry him so much for the power as for him and the beautiful children she could envision them having. The only times that Sansa directly seemed in awe of the Queenship were occasions such as the fight at the meal table with her sister, whereupon she screeched that Arya would have to bow to her and call her "Your Grace" and subsequently got pelted with an orange for her outburst.

This is not to say, however, that Sansa is unaware of class. One of her personal themes that is built upon within the books is the relationships between class, honor, and true nobility. This can be seen in her dealings, early on, with characters like Jeyne Poole, who she is careful to point out is of low status, and thus is not given the opportunity of things like marrying a lord (such as Jeyne was interested in, with Beric Dondarrion). Another early character is Jon, whom she classifies as "half-brother." I would argue that these primary dealings are from the period when Sansa's role model was her mother, and that later on, as she realizes that true nobility is not in name, that Sansa comes closer to her father's beliefs in that sector. Ned is aware of those around him, also, but he does not have the same hard lines as other nobles would. He also seems the type to ferret out people with true merit, and not just those of high birth.

AGoT, Catelyn II:

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. “Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!”


AGoT:

"I can't go. I'm supposed to marry Prince Joffrey. I love him and I'm meant to be his queen and have his babies."



One common failing of both Sansa and Ned's personalities is that they are naive about those around them, seeing the good in people (which is not necessarily a horrible thing) but not seeing the bad underneath, the "knife in the dark" so to speak. Even once burned - Sansa and the "Lady" incident, Ned and the Kingsroad incident, these two cling to their perceptions. Maybe not out of ignorance so much as out of self-preservation. Sansa is set to marry Joffrey, it would be hard to reel against him for her. Ned's brick wall is that Robert is his King.

Still, there are characters out there who would rebel anyway, and there is the distinction - these characters do not, and they are alike in not taking that action, but keeping their concerns internalized. This is the starting point. Herein, I would also argue that Sansa has surpassed her father while not losing his essence. She sees good in people where it is merited, even though she is jaded by the present point in the books. However, whereas Ned did not learn from his earlier setbacks, and went on to make more and more (trusting LF, confronting Cersei...), Sansa gradually evolved, forming her own strategy. She kept everything internal during her tenure in King's Landing, and learned how to say the things that wanted to be heard in order to protect herself.

Here though, I have to raise an important point. It is my belief that Sansa was only able to do this because she is female, and a child still.

After all, even after Lady's passing, Sansa did take more unfortunate action. She went to Cersei about their family leaving the capitol, in one prominent example. In sum, she makes more mistakes, so she does not learn from her setback straightaway. It takes her time. However, due firstly to her gender, she is not seen as big a threat as Ned was, as a man, a lord, and someone in power. She cannot wield a sword. She is not the immediate heir to her family seat. She is underestimated as all-around less treacherous because she does not have a penis. And then there is her age. She is a minor, and she holds no position of authority. For that she is considered tractable, and others can make decisions for her. Whoever holds Sansa gets to make those decisions. Because of those reasons, and also her birth and possibility at being an heiress, Sansa lives to see another day.

Past AGoT, she wises up, and the point is moot. It's lucky that Sansa gets that borrowed time, because she figures out how better to conduct herself for the future, for survival.

Finally, I wish to say a brief thing about the Faith. Following her persona transformations, Sansa seems to lean increasingly toward the Old Gods rather than to the Seven. Several poignant moments spring to mind: refusing to sing in the Sept for Joffrey during the Battle of Blackwater Bay, meeting Dontos in the Godswood while planning escape, and Sansa's note that the Vale soil is not rich enough to support a Godswood. And she is not the only one doing so. Bran, who started off the series wanting to be a knight (attributed to the Seven Faith) is now en process of becoming a tree, Rickon would appear to be in a place that touts the Old Way, and then there's Arya, who is playing around with the god of the FM. In short, Ned's offspring are coming around to the beliefs of the father that they have lost.

Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again.



To finish, a summary list of potential questions:

1. What does it say about the culture of the North and the Starks that Sansa, as she aged and survived, grew more and more to be like her father, moving away from some of the traits she had previously shared with Catelyn?

2. What of her mother does she retain even now, and has that helped her?

3. Does Ned possess something that Sansa has yet to learn or adopt that will be of benefit?

4. What level of culpability does Sansa really have in her father's execution? Given that they both made similar mistakes in trusting where they shouldn't.

5.

In his youth, Ned had fostered at the Eyrie, and the childless Lord Arryn had become a second father to him


In a manner of speaking, Sansa/Alayne is currently fostering at the Eyrie, and err, LF has taken on the role of her second "father." Discuss anything about this that provokes you. I personally have to wonder how the solitude there impacted both father and daughter during their stays. Also, what impact does each person's foster parent have on their development? After all, Jon Arryn surely taught Ned some very different things than Littlefinger teaches Sansa. Ultimately the different teachings may have impact on the survival of the pupil and on their adult behavior.

6.

"When you're older, I'll make you a match with someone who's worthy of you. Someone who's brave and gentle and strong."


Oh those words, oh if Sansa had taken them to heart when Ned spoke them. What do we think? Does Ned have a good idea of the traits that would best suit his eldest daughter in a partner? (After all, Ned, believed Arya could be happy wedding a great Southron Lord, and I think we all know how true that is....) How much are these traits like Ned's own nature?

7. Anything else concerning Ned and Sansa that you would like to bring up that I have talked on, or that I have overlooked?

#12 Give Cersei some LOVE

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:26 AM

you really should have written Sansa 10 instead of Sansa X.

#13 brashcandy

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

Wonderful write-up Candace /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> And so much food for thought! I always think that the relationship Sansa shared with her father was very poignant and deep, although we only catch glimpses of it whilst he is still alive and later on in Sansa's reminiscences. I was particularly touched and intrigued by that quote you highlighted from Bran's chapter which shows that it was Ned who sat around the fire telling them stories about the age of heroes and the old gods. The early source of Sansa's interest in these glorious tales could have indeed come from her father and not Septa Mordane.

Sansa is appreciative of Catelyn's and Ned's strong qualities, but added to this she associates her father with comfort. In her first encounter with the Hound, when she is feeling afraid of Ilyn Payne and backing away, she thinks it's Ned when "strong hands grasped her by the shoulder." Later on in the Eyrie when she's no longer the innocent girl she once was who cried when a singer left Winterfell, she remembers her father comforting her and telling her more singers would come.

I think Ned has always wanted to protect Sansa's innocence and her idealism - which is not a bad thing in itself - but caused him to be blinded to the reality that Sansa was growing up and would need other lessons to make her way in the world, and that sometimes these lessons would be quite harsh and jolting. Ned knows the dangers of KL but he still naively believes that he can insulate his children from them, and when things draw to a head, he has hopes of pulling them out altogether. What I find interesting is that by this point, Ned's role has already been supplanted in a sense, first by the Hound, and later by Littlefinger, and Sansa is not willing to put her hopes on ice /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> for someone brave, gentle and strong. She loves her father, very much, but she wasn't content to give him the final say here, something which I think has importance for what we will eventually see with Littlefinger who is trying to assume that role as patriarch, and we know Sansa has no such love for him.

I'll get to those excellent questions you provided a bit later.

Edited by brashcandy, 11 August 2012 - 10:06 AM.


#14 Lady Lea

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:14 AM

Thank you Lady Candace! This was amazing!

I liked the whole text, but I will comment on what you said about Sansa and Ned not wanting to see the faults in the people they loved. This is very interesting, and something I've wondered about Ned before. Everyone gives Sansa a lot of grief for not seeing who Joff "really was" during the Lady incident, but what about Ned?

We get that he was best friends with Robert, but after the rebellion he saw the way Robert acted when the bodies of the Targaryen children were lain before him. He saw that Robert did not punish Gregor Clegane for raping the Martell princess and killing an infant brutally, or that other man for stabbing a baby girl half a hundred times. Ned was angry and went back to Winterfell but Lyanna's death reconciled them, and when Robert needed him again, there he was, friends as ever, acting as if nothing ever happened. Before the Lady incident Robert was already talking to Ned about sending an assassin after 14-yo Daenerys, who had just gotten married. During the Lady incident Ned saw that Robert didn't do anything about Cersei wanting to kill his daughter's wolves (especially Lady who had no blame in the matter). So shouldn't Ned have realised who Robert really was during any of these events? Shouldn't he have realised the nature of the game in KL? But no, he can't be at fault, because he loved Robert, they were friends when they were young.

But when a girl of 11 doesn't see Joff's "true colors" immediately during the Lady incident - the real nature of the man she barely knew anything about, but who was always the perfect prince to her, and to whom was already promised to marry, who would father her children and spend the rest of his life with her - she is stupid, selfish, blind.

Notice, also, how both Ned and Sansa seem to blame things on Cersei rather than Robert or Joffrey. And yet, later on, they BOTH trust Cersei - Ned goes to her and tells her his whole plan, and Sansa goes to her to ask to stay in KL.

Edited by Lady Lea, 11 August 2012 - 10:16 AM.


#15 brashcandy

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:57 AM

you really should have written Sansa 10 instead of Sansa X.


It might have had something to do with continuing the use of roman numerals, not to mention that Sansa X looks really badass.

#16 Lux Starkgaryen

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:03 PM

Hey, you gals are unstoppable!

I'm just gonna repost Kittykatknits questions she asked at the end of the IX thread

1. What is your favorite Sansa chapter and why?
2. What is your favorite Sansa scene and why?
3. What storyline for Sansa are you most looking forward to in WoW?
4. What is your favorite Sansa related crackpot theory?


1-2- Since I put them together: I still love Sansa's last chapter in AGOT. How we see that she's been already beaten several times by the "knights" of the KG, she tells Joff to his face that she "hates him" before being slapped ( /sad.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':(' /> ); I love her exchange with Ser Meryn:

"His Grace has instructed me to escort you to the throne room.
- Did he instruct you to hit if I refused?
- Are you refusing to come, my Lady? (...)
- No" she said, rising. She wanted to rage, to hurt him as he'd hurt her, to warn him that when she was queen she would have him exiled if he ever dared strike her again... but she remembered what the Hound had told her, so all she said was:
"I shall do whatever His Grace commands.
- As I do", he replied.
"Yes... but you are no true knight, Ser Meryn".


seriously how "badass" is she here? And people say she's too passive? She knows exactly who she's up too (the sheepish KG: they don't hate her but will hit her all the same if Joff tells them to) - and we're only at the end of AGOT! We see she's already thinking alot about the Hound and the advises he's given her during those chapters ("save yourself some pain girl, do as he says" etc).
And what about this thought of her: "when she was queen she would have him exiled", foreshadowing hehe? /leer.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':leer:' />

And then comes THE Sansa quote: which I have to say, i prefer in the Tv version: shorter, to the point: "Or mybe he'll give me yours." Oh yeah. /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' /> You go girl.

-- Of course I adore her later scenes with the Hound or thinking about him, I like her chapters with LF as we see her growth etc but this chapter is what really made me fall in love with her.

3- Wooww hmm everything? since I like how all is enterthwined in her arc: the private and the political. I can't wait to see if/when she'll meet certains characters (Brienne/Jaime), of course be reunited with Sandor - at least for a while? therefore- taking agency of her life, of her growing sexuality and how it will impact her personality quest/her claim/political future. (Did any of that make sense??)

4- hhhaaah, well: since we can't be sure the prophecy of the giant in the winter castle has already come to pass with SR and his doll; and some have speculated that the giant could refer to LF via his original sigil; my pet crack theory is: I want to see is LF doing something really /ack.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':ack:' /> to someone she cares, cause treason and continue with his pervy fatherly kisses, well: he has to die. Before that imagine a Hound reunion, encounter with Brienne, and a reveal she is Sansa Stark, back in Winterfell, starts the rebuilding. Once there, LF is judged, sentenced to death, with the Valyrian steel sword made of Ice (one or the other, Oathkeeper or Widow's..), she does "swing the sword". Sansa Stark, red hair floating in the cold northern wind, blood on her pale face and gown.
Don't hate me, that's my fantasy /drunk.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drunk:' />
(I have to admit: I love Dany in ASOIAF, but mostly I love Buffy, been brought up by her, I love kickass females, I do martial arts etc- but apart for that crackpot scene, I dont sansa to become all fighty with swords etc. End of my Disclaimer)

Edited to fix some mistyping, again

Edited by Lux Starkgaryen, 11 August 2012 - 12:06 PM.


#17 Lady Candace

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:00 PM

Wonderful write-up Candace /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> And so much food for thought! I always think that the relationship Sansa shared with her father was very poignant and deep, although we only catch glimpses of it whilst he is still alive and later on in Sansa's reminiscences. I was particularly touched and intrigued by that quote you highlighted from Bran's chapter which shows that it was Ned who sat around the fire telling them stories about the age of heroes and the old gods. The early source of Sansa's interest in these glorious tales could have indeed come from her father and not Septa Mordane.

Sansa is appreciative of Catelyn's and Ned's strong qualities, but added to this she associates her father with comfort. In her first encounter with the Hound, when she is feeling afraid of Ilyn Payne and backing away, she thinks it's Ned when "strong hands grasped her by the shoulder." Later on in the Eyrie when she's no longer the innocent girl she once was who cried when a singer left Winterfell, she remembers her father comforting her and telling her more singers would come.

I think Ned has always wanted to protect Sansa's innocence and her idealism - which is not a bad thing in itself - but caused him to be blinded to the reality that Sansa was growing up and would need other lessons to make her way in the world, and that sometimes these lessons would be quite harsh and jolting. Ned knows the dangers of KL but he still naively believes that he can insulate his children from them, and when things draw to a head, he has hopes of pulling them out altogether. What I find interesting is that by this point, Ned's role has already been supplanted in a sense, first by the Hound, and later by Littlefinger, and Sansa is not willing to put her hopes on ice /wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' /> for someone brave, gentle and strong. She loves her father, very much, but she wasn't content to give him the final say here, something which I think has importance for what we will eventually see with Littlefinger who is trying to assume that role as patriarch, and we know Sansa has no such love for him.

I'll get to those excellent questions you provided a bit later.


I was interested to find that tidbit about Ned and the stories, too. Thanks Bran bb, glad I perused your chapters! It really highlights a. the sort of hands-on parenting that Ned and Catelyn practiced, more so than others and b. another possible source for Sansa's affinity with story and song.

Comfort definitely rings true - Arya may have been Ned's favorite (perhaps Jon, too) but all the children looked up to their father, and I can certainly see Sansa feeling protected by him. It's intriguing to note as you've said that she's received several more "fatherly" influences throughout her storyline, each one of them teaching her different things. Ned is somewhat sheltering, Sandor is trying to teach harsh reality, and Littlefinger the truth behind ruses and how to play the game. Regarding Ned trying to protect her idealism, I get a strong sense from the book that this is because Ned himself was that way, but he had to grow up, say when his older brother died, and he became Lord of Winterfell. There's another quote in Catelyn II that is Ned talking bitterly about how Brandon would have done it all better, he was born to it. That to me speaks of regret, perhaps a death of the same traits he guards in his eldest daughter. So there we have yet another way they are the same. Interestingly... Sandor shares this trait with father and daughter, and also that it was squashed.

I agree, she's not waiting around for that person who is B, G, and S, but in the end, she might choose a partner with those traits subconsciously. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> Also, LF is in for some rude awakenings in his la-la-land later down the road. Sansa bb has backbone. She's also like her father (and mama) in that way, nowadays.

I'll love to see you go at the questions.

Thank you Lady Candace! This was amazing!

I liked the whole text, but I will comment on what you said about Sansa and Ned not wanting to see the faults in the people they loved. This is very interesting, and something I've wondered about Ned before. Everyone gives Sansa a lot of grief for not seeing who Joff "really was" during the Lady incident, but what about Ned?

We get that he was best friends with Robert, but after the rebellion he saw the way Robert acted when the bodies of the Targaryen children were lain before him. He saw that Robert did not punish Gregor Clegane for raping the Martell princess and killing an infant brutally, or that other man for stabbing a baby girl half a hundred times. Ned was angry and went back to Winterfell but Lyanna's death reconciled them, and when Robert needed him again, there he was, friends as ever, acting as if nothing ever happened. Before the Lady incident Robert was already talking to Ned about sending an assassin after 14-yo Daenerys, who had just gotten married. During the Lady incident Ned saw that Robert didn't do anything about Cersei wanting to kill his daughter's wolves (especially Lady who had no blame in the matter). So shouldn't Ned have realised who Robert really was during any of these events? Shouldn't he have realised the nature of the game in KL? But no, he can't be at fault, because he loved Robert, they were friends when they were young.

But when a girl of 11 doesn't see Joff's "true colors" immediately during the Lady incident - the real nature of the man she barely knew anything about, but who was always the perfect prince to her, and to whom was already promised to marry, who would father her children and spend the rest of his life with her - she is stupid, selfish, blind.

Notice, also, how both Ned and Sansa seem to blame things on Cersei rather than Robert or Joffrey. And yet, later on, they BOTH trust Cersei - Ned goes to her and tells her his whole plan, and Sansa goes to her to ask to stay in KL.


Thanks for the praise /blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

Yes, yes yes! It's very uh, interesting (double-standard-y) how Ned gets a clean ride on this for the most part, but Sansa is villainized. Ned has seen Robert be party to some horrible things but I have to wonder what he did to get past it. Was he able to eventually calm himself with the rationalization that it was a time of war, and terrible things happen during a war? Or is he just putting on blinders and not thinking of it? I suppose that would be easy enough to do, so far away.

I remember Ned thinking, after Lady was killed, and he got word of Bran being saved by Summer that Jon was right, that the children were meant to have the direwolves. He thinks, a bit horrified, that he had killed Sansa's wolf, and I think that later date is when it *finally* starts to sink in for him.

In the case of the wolves though, I think it's not necessarily wrong to blame Cersei. She is the one calling out for blood there, but I do think that Robert needed some blame and shame, too. And welll, Joffrey has a nickname, and it is Turd.

Have to shake my head at them both. Don't trust Cersei.

#18 Pod The Impaler

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:37 PM

From the start, it would appear more that the role of Daddy's little girl is taken up by Arya. She has Ned's look, and he is quite fond of her to boot. Early on, Sansa remarks, during their trip down the Kingsroad, that Ned does not ever punish Arya for running wild in the mud and the swamps, but rather thanks her for the flowers she gathers in those places. Sansa's older model is her mother, Catelyn, as at this time, Sansa is invested in learning the ways of being a proper lady, and it's only natural that she would look to her mother for guidance, as well as her septa, too. Some of Sansa's interests however, and her nature are very reminiscent of her father, even then.

Apart from just flights of fancy, this event in her childhood, as well as being a part of Ned's persona, is the ability to know many things and to recite them. Ned knows his bannermen, he knows the tales from wars and histories, and it seems that he has imparted at least some of those to his offspring. If we take into account outside examples, not every noble was brought up to be so mindful of the past and of the interpersonal dynamics of various houses.

Yet, Sansa for one is always expounding about these sorts of tidbits in her POV. She pays attention to people, which in the end contributes to her compassion, empathy, and social skills. Her father was not a savant as far as courtly social games and politicking, but he did possess the other traits - a good heart, and ability to notice others. Luckily for Sansa, she is Ned 2.0 in the fact that she has taken these graces to a whole new level of acumen, and she can use them to further herself and protect herself in the world. She is far better at expressing herself and taking note of things than Ned was.

Ned's personal side can be argued to be like his heart, and his professional like his brain. He is a loving father in truth, but his other truth is that he is Lord over a great domain, and must rule. He seems to understand that the two are exclusive, and he has adapted a second persona to cover all bases. This is one of the lessons on the path to adulthood, that there are times and situations where one must modulate their behavior, whether one likes it or not.

One common failing of both Sansa and Ned's personalities is that they are naive about those around them, seeing the good in people (which is not necessarily a horrible thing) but not seeing the bad underneath, the "knife in the dark" so to speak. Even once burned - Sansa and the "Lady" incident, Ned and the Kingsroad incident, these two cling to their perceptions. Maybe not out of ignorance so much as out of self-preservation. Sansa is set to marry Joffrey, it would be hard to reel against him for her. Ned's brick wall is that Robert is his King.

Here though, I have to raise an important point. It is my belief that Sansa was only able to do this because she is female, and a child still.



Sansa definitely took to heart the social lessons she learned being raised. Whether these were coming from Ned, from Catelyn, or from Septa Mordane, it is not clear. truthfully, probably all three. Much of it worked because Sansa naturally gravitates towards it, enjoys it and excels at it. (With Arya, she probably got the same lessons, but seems to have internally rejected them - when she performs the social graces, it's mainly as a tiresome chore.)

If I were to point out one aspect she got from Ned, or which is most like him, I would say look to how Ned always got to know his bannermen, deliberately. Ned is not an overly sociable person, but he understands that as a lord, it's something he needs to do - generosity and courtesy from his house towards his bannermen, and a willingness to listen to their concerns (even when he does not sympathize with them). Sansa seems to do this as well - first as a guest and later as a prisoner in King's Landing, she seems to show interest and concern in others. It's socially savvy, but on her part it's not manipulative - either she has this instinct, or she at least is following the example set at home, that this is just what you're supposed to do. (Tyrion even notices how good she is at it.) As a prisoner, even when trotted out for some social event, she could have chosen to try to avoid interacting with anyone at all.

Another similarity with Ned might have been in that she could not bring herself to hate Myrcella and Tommen, nor other children. She might have a soft-spot for children - perhaps at times her undoing. Yes, she is naive, but given her age, her inability to see past her crushes and dreams is not so unusual. Still, even after those are dashed, and she understands she is in danger, with regard to children she is kinder than she needs to be. When Tommen was practising jousting, she could have just as easily hoped he'd break his neck. Instead, she encourages him in his dreams of knighthood, excuses his tears as a child, regardless of the fact that he could be fighting Starks in just a few years.
It was also personally dangerous, standing up to Joffrey on behalf of Tommen - she knows Joffrey abuses her, and may see he also bullies Tommen as well. She still views Tommen as an innocent, perhaps Myrcella also.

With Ned Stark, he's less naive, but I think despite the dangers of doing so, goes to Cersei to give her and especially her children a chance to escape and survive. The biggest and most fatal mistake he made, for certain. Why do it? I think it's more soft-heartedness towards children, rather than naively not knowing. As Varys plainly tells him, his act of mercy is basically what took the King's life, and cost him his own. If only Ned had been ruthless - tell Robert about Cersei first. Or arrest her and wait for Robert to come back from his hunting to deal with her. Or take any other action that was suggested to him by others which he ignored. It had nothing to do with expecting Cersei to be honourable, but rather his refusal to do something that could be lethal to children - even those of his worst enemies, even if it had every legal justification behind it (treason, incest, adultery). He still views Cersei's children as innocents, at least the younger two.

Perhaps this is where Sansa gets her specific kindness towards children. We shall see, depending on what Littlefinger is doing with Sweetrobin and whether she is in any position to do something about it.



To finish, a summary list of potential questions:

3. Does Ned possess something that Sansa has yet to learn or adopt that will be of benefit?

6. "When you're older, I'll make you a match with someone who's worthy of you. Someone who's brave and gentle and strong."

Oh those words, oh if Sansa had taken them to heart when Ned spoke them. What do we think? Does Ned have a good idea of the traits that would best suit his eldest daughter in a partner? (After all, Ned, believed Arya could be happy wedding a great Southron Lord, and I think we all know how true that is....) How much are these traits like Ned's own nature?



3 - I think one thing Sansa did not learn, something which Ned probably tried not to teach her (at least, not yet), woiuld be the sort of ruthlessness or "lethal decisiveness" that comes with being a Lord or Lady. Few think of Ned as a ruthless man, yet he was a war leader and a northern lord - you do not live long as either one if you're not at least willing to make those fatal judgements. It's the nasty side of life in command, basically. Eventually, though, Ned would have to stop shielding his eldest daughter from it; as part of her being daughter of Lord Stark, he'd have to give her advice on ruling and what that means, even as a woman. Granted, you do not see Ned taking his daughters to watch him perform executions - he is too traditional for that. But eventually, even a sweet-natured lady of the North has to show some steel. Of course, here is where Catelyn would have just as much to teach Sansa, not just courtly manners, but also some hard lessons about the adult world. This does not mean Sansa would have to become nasty herself, just that she would have to be prepared.


6 - I think he would have wanted someone brave, honourable, noble (and a noble), honest, a good protector, and likely someone with high spirits / socialbility. And someone close to her own age (no Jon Arryn's for her).
I do not think he'd want Sansa to marry a Robert Baratheon - both are bositerous but tempramental, and certainly Robert we see a willingness to cheat that would break his daughter's heart. Yet, I cannot see him picking a young version of Stannis for her either - he can respect a Stannis type for his honesty, honour, bravery, etc. - but someone that cold, dour, and unbending would make someone like Sansa miserable. Someone like Renly ? Well, he certainly has all the outward qualities that Sansa would like - noble, sociable, well-mannered, gallant, generous, but I think Ned and Catelyn would both agree lacks discipline and seriousness. (And I think they would see what's going on between him and Loras and even if they did not hold it against him, it would make him poor choice for Sansa's mate.)


I think Ned has always wanted to protect Sansa's innocence and her idealism - which is not a bad thing in itself - but caused him to be blinded to the reality that Sansa was growing up and would need other lessons to make her way in the world, and that sometimes these lessons would be quite harsh and jolting. Ned knows the dangers of KL but he still naively believes that he can insulate his children from them, and when things draw to a head, he has hopes of pulling them out altogether.



As I mentioned about point #3, these lessons would eventually come. I think Ned and Catelyn would have probably began teaching the more grown-up lessons upon her flowering. Compare with Margaery Tyrell, who I think is similar to Sansa in some ways. The Tyrells clearly dote on her too, though she has brothers to uphold the family claim. I cannot imagine the Tyrell's shielding Margaery from things like courtly intrigue, but she is older than Sansa by a few years, and those few years may make all the difference. Sansa starts out as a child, but a child close enough to being a flowered maid.

#19 brashcandy

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 03:50 PM

To finish, a summary list of potential questions:

1. What does it say about the culture of the North and the Starks that Sansa, as she aged and survived, grew more and more to be like her father, moving away from some of the traits she had previously shared with Catelyn?


I think there's something to the idea of "Stark power" being vested in winter and the North. As Sansa gets older, she's able to appreciate the solemnity of the old gods, and to differentiate between what is truly meaningful and what is merely flashy/bright. Added to this her sense of loss over Winterfell and her idyllic childhood, and it goes towards explaining the need for reconnection with her father's religion. I also think her skinchanging ability might be playing a role here.


2. What of her mother does she retain even now, and has that helped her?


Definitely the dignified strength that she would have seen Catelyn displaying for most of her life. I've always thought it was significant that Cat is the one who taught Sansa the mother's song - the same song she sings to rescue herself and Sandor from a dark spiral.

3. Does Ned possess something that Sansa has yet to learn or adopt that will be of benefit?


This is an interesting question. Pod talked above about the ruthlessness she hasn't learnt yet, but I'm not so sure we haven't seen signs of that in her thoughts on Joffrey and her relationship with Sweetrobin.

4. What level of culpability does Sansa really have in her father's execution? Given that they both made similar mistakes in trusting where they shouldn't.


None.

5. In a manner of speaking, Sansa/Alayne is currently fostering at the Eyrie, and err, LF has taken on the role of her second "father." Discuss anything about this that provokes you. I personally have to wonder how the solitude there impacted both father and daughter during their stays. Also, what impact does each person's foster parent have on their development? After all, Jon Arryn surely taught Ned some very different things than Littlefinger teaches Sansa. Ultimately the different teachings may have impact on the survival of the pupil and on their adult behavior.


The more things change in the Vale the more they remain the same it seems /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> We have another Robert Baratheon running around in Harry the Heir, and the Stark of Winterfell is faced with the prospect of a lifetime bond to that person. I do think that now Mya Stone and Alayne have the chance to foster a more mutually sustaining relationship than the one Ned shared with Robert. I always got the sense that Ned was the one who was required to support Robert in all his excesses whilst the latter constantly played the fool and relied on his good natured charm. Mya and Sansa's relationship already looks to be different. Both girls have suffered disappointments in love and relationships, and have a chance to learn from one another and benefit from each other's company. As for LF's role, I do think he underestimates just how much Sansa still retains of her formative years in Winterfell, and her unwillingness to continue being a pawn in someone else's game.

6.Oh those words, oh if Sansa had taken them to heart when Ned spoke them. What do we think? Does Ned have a good idea of the traits that would best suit his eldest daughter in a partner? (After all, Ned, believed Arya could be happy wedding a great Southron Lord, and I think we all know how true that is....) How much are these traits like Ned's own nature?


Yes, he did have a good idea /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> These are the qualities Sansa values in Sandor and later on she can see them in Lothor Brune and appreciates why he would be a good match for Mya.


7. Anything else concerning Ned and Sansa that you would like to bring up that I have talked on, or that I have overlooked?


I think you did a great job in covering the essential elements of their relationship. Though I find Ned's death tragic, I do think we have to appreciate that Arya and Sansa may come closer to truer fulfillment than they ever would have had he lived. Not to say he wouldn't have endeavoured to make them happy, and might have indeed succeeded, but Ned was part of the old tradition in Westerosi society and wasn't as liberal as some people seem to believe. We think of Sansa's experiences in the South as overwhelming negative, but she has learnt a lot and had positive growth in that environment too. If she is to return to the North, I think she will be able to effect a lot more change and progress than if she had never left.

#20 Caro99

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:36 PM

Wonderful & beautiful analysis Lady Candace! J Everything was really good, and I registered so many little details with this I’d never done in my million re-reads before, so thanks! And I think it was nice to have Ned being the first male we explore so we can look back later on and see how he influenced Sansa when other men came along…


For example, I hadn’t even think about Sansa possibly being a little sad that Ned never punished Arya because she could feel that they were sort of closer than her and her father, and that she may have grown a likeness to hear songs and stories because when she was little Ned became the stark’s family storyteller alongside Old nan. Another thing, to think Sansa was sort of learning from Ned how to be a good leader to their people shows us that she wasn’t a silly little girl who only cared about handsome singers.
I find it so heartbreakingly beautiful that the last time we read Ned he is being given the option of saving Sansa’s life over his honor. Sure, he did it for all of his family, but the way Varys says that they could bring Sansa’s head to him makes me cry L

Sansa undergoes this lesson in her arc, starting from the King's Landing period when she builds her shield of courtesy to hide behind, and she becomes the obedient little bird trapped in a cage. She takes this to new heights with her adoption of Alayne Stone, a mask that she grows and entwined with more and more as time passes, to where her current chapters are headed as Alayne, and the writing within refers to her as such.

It is a good thing to know that the lessons Sansa learned since she was little by Ned are still not only enduring but growing in strength since at present LF wants to step into Ned’s shoes oh so very much.

& I totally agree that it was the idea of having a lovely family with Joff and of devoting herself to him and their children the main reason why she wanted to be a queen. The power it could give her were not of consequence to her, and thus this might in a way make her more fit to rule if that is where her path lies, rather than someone like Cersei who lusted for power. I can’t remember where it is said in AGoT but I think this is sort of the same reason why Robert says Ned would be such a good hand or regent. When the option of loving her husband and being happy with him is stripped from her, Sansa still tries to be mindful of the poor during the riot for example, showing that she can put her heart after the people’s needs. Sort of similar to what Ned did when he sat the Iron Throne, bothered with pain by his leg, only in a different emotional level. I just hope that since Sansa has been forced to keep her personal desires at bay for so long now, she will before the end take matters into her own hands and do whatever she wants to do.
Also, I think that Sansa followed Ned’s lead regarding ruling better than Arya in the sense that Ned inspired loyalty with his banner men and people, yet he knew that is was unwise to befriend them in case he one day had to kill them for treason or something. Arya befriends Mycah and thus she is affected emotionally when he is killed unjustly. Sansa however follows Ned’s behavior (and even if it comes unconsciously at times, this just shows how much like her father she is). Yet LF’s tutoring may be one of the things that help her become a better player than Ned. You explain it better with this:

I would also argue that Sansa has surpassed her father while not losing his essence. She sees good in people where it is merited, even though she is jaded by the present point in the books. However, whereas Ned did not learn from his earlier setbacks, and went on to make more and more (trusting LF, confronting Cersei...), Sansa gradually evolved, forming her own strategy. She kept everything internal during her tenure in King's Landing, and learned how to say the things that wanted to be heard in order to protect herself.


I’m sure Ned had the greatest wishes and concept of Sansa, yet I think that he wasn’t aware of just how much she resembled him or how strong she could be. When he has one of his many talks with Arya after they are in KL he tells her that both Sansa and her will marry and keep some castle and have children. I think Ned was more than confident Sansa could win the title for the best qualified for these things, yet I am also sure that where he to somehow return from the dead to see how his children are doing, he would be not only so pleased with his eldest daughter, but speechless. The little girl he raised would have survived many of the strongest players in the game, enduring physical and emotional tortures without end and forcing to marry against her will and then forced into a weird father thing with LF. Without counting what is in store for her. So I wish to think that where Sansa to decide for herself who would be her husband, he would not protest (I think many will suspect who I have in mind here). Not after Sansa had managed to find someone brave and gentle and strong, which are after all the qualities Ned wished to seek for in her daughter’s husband.
About one of very good questions:
1-. It says about the culture of the North that people who are born there are mostly proud of it. It has such a heritage and inspires loyalty and survives winter after all, drawing its children to it and it’ traditions sooner or later.

Edited by Caro99, 11 August 2012 - 05:37 PM.