Jackanapes at the Wall: A Retrospective

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I feel like I have no time for this place anymore, but I'm dropping in to give my whole-hearted approval. Well done.

[Faint]

Her one redeeming quality is sparing Mance Rayder from the fires, which should be noted . . .

I think you somewhat undervalue this contribution. Her saving of Mance Rayder allowed for the escape of Theon Greyjoy and 'Arya Stark' and in so doing probably set in the motion the end of Bolton rule.

One can only hope that if she saves Jon Snow's life she gets credit for, you know, saving Jon Snow's life.

[Jolene Brown]

I think you somewhat undervalue this contribution. Her saving of Mance Rayder allowed for the escape of Theon Greyjoy and 'Arya Stark' and in so doing probably set in the motion the end of Bolton rule.

One can only hope that if she saves Jon Snow's life she gets credit for, you know, saving Jon Snow's life.

That's not really why she did it though...

[Faint]

That's not really why she did it though...

It's her specialty; inadvertently saving the world.

[nepaliman_7]

Dolorous Edd is the only one with any sense.

[butterbumps!]

I think you somewhat undervalue this contribution. Her saving of Mance Rayder allowed for the escape of Theon Greyjoy and 'Arya Stark' and in so doing probably set in the motion the end of Bolton rule.

One can only hope that if she saves Jon Snow's life she gets credit for, you know, saving Jon Snow's life.

But I did note the fact that Mance was saved. Even though I approve of anything that enables Mance's life to be saved, I think the point still stands that she is invariably more trouble than she is worth, and an ulcer inducing presence to Jon. He fantasizes about the day Selyse will finally leave the Wall, and that she'll hopefully take Melisandre with her ("if the gods be good"). Doing good things inadvertently only goes so far in my opinion. She is obviously up to something only she knows about, and she's so misguided in her operations, I don't find her to be an asset. She's not working for the greater good- she's working for her own aims, and as she hasn't revealed what those aims are, I think we all have good reason not to trust her. She could have easily spared Mance's life from burning only to get him into even more devastating trouble; the same with Jon.

[Fender]

But I did note the fact that Mance was saved. Even though I approve of anything that enables Mance's life to be saved, I think the point still stands that she is invariably more trouble than she is worth, and an ulcer inducing presence to Jon. He fantasizes about the day Selyse will finally leave the Wall, and that she'll hopefully take Melisandre with her ("if the gods be good"). Doing good things inadvertently only goes so far in my opinion. She is obviously up to something only she knows about, and she's so misguided in her operations, I don't find her to be an asset. She's not working for the greater good- she's working for her own aims, and as she hasn't revealed what those aims are, I think we all have good reason not to trust her. She could have easily spared Mance's life from burning only to get him into even more devastating trouble; the same with Jon.

Well, to support that, I'm of the belief that the reason Ramsay knew enough about the state of the Wall to be able to write that letter is because after killing the spearwives, he flayed parts of Rayder as well to get the information. Everyone, say hello to the new prospect for Reek 4.0.

[butterbumps!]

Well, to support that, I'm of the belief that the reason Ramsay knew enough about the state of the Wall to be able to write that letter is because after killing the spearwives, he flayed parts of Rayder as well to get the information. Everyone, say hello to the new prospect for Reek 4.0.

Well, actually, I don't think Ramsay wrote that letter. I think Mel sent Mance to Winterfell for some yet-to-be-seen purpose (remember, he was supposed to intercept "Arya," whose location Mel knew when she sent Mance out; I think she gave Mance additional instructions that Jon wasn't privy to that had him bypass "Arya" and head straight to Winterfell.) So I don't think Mance is actually being flayed or anything like that; I think he wrote that letter under Mel's instruction. Mel's been so consumed with getting Jon to trust in her and make her a counselor, that I think it was her idea to send him a letter like that so that he'd turn to her upon receiving it. The first paragraph of the letter tells Jon explicitly to "go see Mel" to confirm the rest of the contents.

So my mistrust of Mel has more to do with what she is trying to achieve by infiltrating Winterfell rather than the idea that Mance has been captured and getting flayed. I'm concerned about whether this is some ploy to undermine the Northmen, or about stealing/ using some kind of magic/ power she might believe exists at the castle.

[Loras]

So it seems like everyone who disagrees with Jon Snow is a moron? More than anything else, this post highlights what an unreliable narrator Jon is! He needs to heed the wisdom of his father and know his men - but he also has to kill the boy and let the man be born. My interpretation is that he has to understand that each man has value!

Thanks for the post BB - brilliant as always :-)

[Fender]

Well, actually, I don't think Ramsay wrote that letter. I think Mel sent Mance to Winterfell for some yet-to-be-seen purpose (remember, he was supposed to intercept "Arya," whose location Mel knew when she sent Mance out; I think she gave Mance additional instructions that Jon wasn't privy to that had him bypass "Arya" and head straight to Winterfell.) So I don't think Mance is actually being flayed or anything like that; I think he wrote that letter under Mel's instruction. Mel's been so consumed with getting Jon to trust in her and make her a counselor, that I think it was her idea to send him a letter like that so that he'd turn to her upon receiving it. The first paragraph of the letter tells Jon explicitly to "go see Mel" to confirm the rest of the contents.

So my mistrust of Mel has more to do with what she is trying to achieve by infiltrating Winterfell rather than the idea that Mance has been captured and getting flayed. I'm concerned about whether this is some ploy to undermine the Northmen, or about stealing/ using some kind of magic/ power she might believe exists at the castle.

Well, guess we won't agree on this detail till the next book comes out, then. (And for the record, when it does, I told you so. =p)

[Kittykatknits]

Well, actually, I don't think Ramsay wrote that letter. I think Mel sent Mance to Winterfell for some yet-to-be-seen purpose (remember, he was supposed to intercept "Arya," whose location Mel knew when she sent Mance out; I think she gave Mance additional instructions that Jon wasn't privy to that had him bypass "Arya" and head straight to Winterfell.) So I don't think Mance is actually being flayed or anything like that; I think he wrote that letter under Mel's instruction. Mel's been so consumed with getting Jon to trust in her and make her a counselor, that I think it was her idea to send him a letter like that so that he'd turn to her upon receiving it. The first paragraph of the letter tells Jon explicitly to "go see Mel" to confirm the rest of the contents.

So my mistrust of Mel has more to do with what she is trying to achieve by infiltrating Winterfell rather than the idea that Mance has been captured and getting flayed. I'm concerned about whether this is some ploy to undermine the Northmen, or about stealing/ using some kind of magic/ power she might believe exists at the castle.

This is a great theory, makes more sense to me than others I've heard. I don't think the letter came from Stannis, not his style. I don't believe Ramsey wrote it either. When it comes to Mel, I took away two things from Dance, she wants Jon to (blindly) trust her and she has motives beyond what even her POV would reveal. I don't trust her at all, would not surprise me if she ultimately causes harm to Jon.

On a related note, completely agree with your OP. Jon was surrounded by people who struck me as being either thick, idiotic, spiteful, vengeful, close-minded, or untrustworthy. Or a combination of those. He reminded me of the manager who has the revelation that he's the smartest person in the room, which is a horrible place to be. I'd much rather surround myself with people who are smarter, it raises the bar of an institution. Unfortunately for Jon, the NW serves for life.

[mcb]

I meant on you, insulting him like this. I mean, with Bowen's charm, winning personality and strategic prowess, he's exactly the man the Watch needs leading it during the apocalypse*

He’s the man you want in front when the foes are in the field. He’ll count them right up for you. A regular demon for counting, that one.

[Fat Mac]

Well, luckily Thoren Smallwoods not alive anymore, he'd just be another pain in Jon's ass.

[LordBloodraven]

If Thoren Smallwood was alive, he might have been chosen LC over Jon

[Fat Mac]

If Thoren Smallwood was alive, he might have been chosen LC over Jon

Are we sure? A lot of good officers and commanders threw their name in, and it kind of seemed deadlocked. I feel like he'd be the type to throw support behind Janos.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think you somewhat undervalue this contribution. Her saving of Mance Rayder allowed for the escape of Theon Greyjoy and 'Arya Stark' and in so doing probably set in the motion the end of Bolton rule.

I'm not sure I buy this. Stannis was going to face the Boltons regardless, even knowing that "Arya" was still in their possession and could end up as a hostage. Stannis didn't need Theon to tell him about the Karstarks; he would've learned from Jon's letter. So where are you getting that Melisandre sending Mance "set in the motion" the Boltons' demise, when Stannis was marching anyway?

[LordBloodraven]

Are we sure? A lot of good officers and commanders threw their name in, and it kind of seemed deadlocked. I feel like he'd be the type to throw support behind Janos.

Well, he was pretty competent and independent-minded. He convinced Ser Mallador Locke to endorse his plan and didn't back out when the Old Bear disagreed with him at the Fist. I don't see him backing Janos, he's more of a Cotter Pyke guy in some ways. The deadlock was between Ser Denys and Cotter Pyke; it's reasonable to believe that he could be a via media between these two polarized camps. And he would surely gets the vote of Castle Black, Bown and Yarwyck never stood a chance

[Naathi Prince]

Well, luckily Thoren Smallwoods not alive anymore, he'd just be another pain in Jon's ass.

where do you get the idea that Thoren Smallwood was a pain? He was one of the three men trusted enough by the Old Bear to be send on the scouting mission.

[Fat Mac]

where do you get the idea that Thoren Smallwood was a pain? He was one of the three men trusted enough by the Old Bear to be send on the scouting mission.

He would have been a pain for Jon specifically. He hated the wildlings, he thought he was all that, and he was good friends with Alliser Thorne. These three means he would most likely have been another thing for Jon to deal with. But no doubt if Jon was LC, he would have probably given Thoren command of a fort along the wall.

[Naathi Prince]

He would have been a pain for Jon specifically. He hated the wildlings, he thought he was all that, and he was good friends with Alliser Thorne. These three means he would most likely have been another thing for Jon to deal with. But no doubt if Jon was LC, he would have probably given Thoren command of a fort along the wall.

Thoren doesn't seem to have any special hate for wildings, at least not one that I noticed. Most people in the Nights Watch and especially rangers aren't big fans.