182 replies to this topic

[Jaime L]

So I've been thinking about getting a dog for some time now. I've been a dog lover for decades now but have never gotten the chance to have my own. I've lived in group houses with dogs but they were never my responsibility. My parents were not what you would call pet-lovers and since college and beyond I've always been too fluid, too poor, too unsettled, too busy - that has now changed. I own my own place and I'm fairly settled where i am. My roommate moved out in the past week so I wouldn't be stepping on his toes with a pet and I now have more space in flexibility in bringing on a pet. Considering I've considered kidnapping 5-6 dogs I've encountered in the past week in the park - just flat grabbing it in my arms and sprinting off - I think it's probably time to start seriously looking this.  I feel like this is a good topic to crowdsource the board and especially the dog-owners among it and get a sense for their thoughts on it.

Ideally I'd be seeking out a bigger dog - one that can go running/hiking with me or just play fetch at the park. Really I'd want a dog that fit my lifestyle and that I wouldn't have to leave behind when out in nature. Not that I would rule out a smaller dog out of hand but the ones that come to mind are Labradors or Retrievers and half a million variations of mutts that make for awesome, active dogs.

My plan would to be adopt from one of the shelters in town as those are the dogs most in need of a home - either the Max Fund or Dumb Friends League. My heart just breaks for the dogs in there and would love to help one if I can. Young/old I'm less concerned just so long as I feel like I can connect with the dog and that this will work long-term. I plan to have this dog for the length of its life or mine - I don't plan to return it to the shelter. Cost isn't really a concern either.

However I still have two related concerns:
  1) I have no fenced in yard
  2) I'm gone for long periods of the day and longer still in busy season

And so I wonder what I will do with the dog during the day. I'd feel awful kenneling it all day. I have a friend with a boxer puppy (now grown) which is kenneled all day long and I just feel horrible for it. A dog with separation anxiety would be a non-starter in this situation...but even one without is bound to be lonely. I'm concerned about my capability to provide a good home for a dog when I'll be gone for long periods of time every day. And I work far enough way that lunchtime visits can't be regular occurrences. This concern goes double considering that I'd be looking at a larger more active dog - not a smaller house dog. I have friends/gf/a neighbor that will occasionally be able to check in on it, the occasional walk, but this won't be regular. For the most part they all work during the day too.

So with the scene set, I have several questions:

1) Is it cruel to adopt this dog without a yard to provide for it and long periods of time where it'll be alone.
2) Is it likely to tear up the house if I don't kennel it?
3) If the above is true, can this be mollified by either obedience school or doggy daycare?
4) Are there breeds I need to stay away from based on my living situation? Moreover are there breeds I should take a longer look at based on the kind of qualities I'm looking for?
5) As someone who's never owned a dog what are the biggest things I need to know? What will I be surprised by?
6) How much do you budget for your dog (i.e. food/pet accessories/vet visits etc.)? Just helps give me a sense of what I need to be prepared for.

Any answers to the above or even better sharing your adoption experience will be greatly appreciated just to give me a sense of what I might be in for and whether this makes sense giving my living situation. Plus, I understand I get evicted from Denver if I remain the last person in this town without a dog... so if we can make this work out that would be fantastic.

Thanks guys!

Edited by Jaime L, 15 August 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[kalbear]

I'm not a big dog expert, so take my advice with a bit of salt.

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1) Is it cruel to adopt this dog without a yard to provide for it and long periods of time where it'll be alone.

Depends a lot on the dog. Some dogs - even some larger dogs - are fine being inside for a while and even enjoy it. If you're going for a higher-energy dog the important thing is to establish a routine - that when you're there, it's time to party. When you're not, it's time to chill.

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2) Is it likely to tear up the house if I don't kennel it?

At first, yes (if it would do so at all). Otherwise, no. You can mitigate this by making one room where they mostly stay and put a lot of stuff in there for tearing shit up.

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3) If the above is true, can this be mollified by either obedience school or doggy daycare?

Somewhat. Obedience school works better when doing actual commands; it's hard to tell a dog to 'not destroy shit for 8 hours' and have them understand. Doggy daycare would work okay because they'll get used to that routine. Ultimately you need to set in stone what they can and can't do. After that, they'll get the hang of it. But that's going to be tough.

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4) Are there breeds I need to stay away from based on my living situation? Moreover are there breeds I should take a longer look at based on the kind of qualities I'm looking for?

I still can't recommend corgis enough. If you want to be super active with them they'll be a super trooper, do fetching and frisbee and run with you as long as you want. But they'll also chill, and they only really need about half an hour of exercise daily. They're very smart and not very territorial, really good with people and very social. They also don't mind being indoors (ours certainly doesn't) and learn fast.

That being said, breed is not as important as personality and prior training when dealing with rescue dogs. I hate to say it but you might be better off not going with a rescue. It will certainly be more work to figure out what works best.

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5) As someone who's never owned a dog what are the biggest things I need to know? What will I be surprised by?

The most important thing that I've found is being consistent. In everything. Here's an example. Dog owners had a rule - don't go on couch. They finished housebreaking the dog, and all was good. Then they decided to let the dog on the couch. Immediately the dog started losing all housebreaking. Why? Because the dog associated the rules. Once it could do what it wanted in one place it did what it wanted elsewhere.
Other slightly more obvious ones:
-Dogs are scent based learners. They associate greatly with a smell. use this to advantage - use certain treats in some ways, others in other ways. Use the same bowl for food. Use the same blanket for sleeping. Don't vary it up a ton.
-Dogs will do what you let them. You need to be the boss. If you don't want an excited dog when you come home, don't reward the behavior with attention. Back off, don't let them jump on you, and wait for them to calm down. Reward them when they calm. Same thing for behavior around other humans; it's very easy to let them go nuts when someone comes and pets them, but if you don't want that behavior you have to say 'no' and let the humans know not to reward it. Tell them you're training the dog not to jump up.
-Dogs will tell you what is going on, but it's not always obvious how. Posture and expression are big things for dogs. A lot of times it seems very human, but a lot of times it's peculiar to a specific dog. Pay attention to things like how they act around other dogs, how they act around other humans.
-Distracting dogs with other activities works well. For instance, we didn't want our dog to bark - so when he was barking at something we'd wait a sec and then do something else. The waiting a sec is key - you don't want to have them associate barking with getting fun happy times.
-Many dogs want a job. Whether it be herding cats into the basement, catching fish, shredding papers - many are job-oriented. That's how they were bred. For those breeds you should find them a job. That can be things like 'bring the newspaper' or 'fucking kill the shit out of this hand puppet'.
-Dogs don't need to eat nearly as much as they say they do. Don't listen to their beggings and awesome looks of sadness. Be very firm about meal times and meal sizes.
-Dogs shed a lot. Even shorthaired ones. And they do need grooming. Look for specific easy breeds if that's not for you. (Corgis rock in this respect as well)

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6) How much do you budget for your dog (i.e. food/pet accessories/vet visits etc.)? Just helps give me a sense of what I need to be prepared for.

Food is obviously going to vary on breed and activity level. Vet visits have not been horrible, and for a rescue dog it's basically a yearly checkup, so maybe a couple hundred bucks. You can spend as much as you want on a dog - the bed, the crate, the fancy food - but most of that is for you, not for them. Dogs tend to have a lot of ability to eat whatever, don't need awesome beds, and will figure things out.

Also, I'd recommend against getting some higher-maintenance breeds. Things like bulldogs, where you need to manually wipe away the deposits of dirt from their face and their ass - maybe not the right choice.

[Fragile Bird]

I live in a neighbourhood full of single people who are crazy about dogs.  Some have simply decided not to own a dog for many of the situational reasons you mention.  Others handle it by hiring a dog walker, or by using doggy day care.

You are right to wonder about breeds - a highly intelligent dog like a golden retriever or a lab could very well take to ripping your house apart while you are out.  They are smart, and get bored.  There's a vet who's written all kinds of books about dogs, Dr. Stanley Coren, including one called The Intelligence of Dogs.  He points out studies have shown that if a dog is going to be left alone for long periods of time, it may be better to own a less intelligent breed, because they will not get bored so easily.  And decide to unstuff the couch, for example. You may feel horrible for the boxer, but they aren't the brightest lights of the dog world and are in fact one of the breeds reccommended for someone away from home all day.

Training will definitely help, and train when the dog is young.  If it's a pound dog, they may already have training, the pound may have determined that.

And yeah, having a fenced in yard is probably a must.  It can be an electronic fence (ie buried cable and the dog has a collar that will shock him if he approaches) or an actual fence.  Your dog will want to go outside every day, and therefore the fence is necessary.  You don't want to have to be out with him all the time.

I'll leave some of the cost questions to other responders, you'll get lots of replies.

I've had a dog for 42 of the last 46 years (don't have one right now) you'll have great joy for owning one.

ETA:  Dr. Coren has ranked Dogs for Obedience and Working Intelligence, from the smartest (Border collie) to the dumbest at no. 79 (afghan Hound), and he suggests choosing a dog ranked 45 or lower if you will be leaving the dog alone a lot.  Kalbear's corgis are ranked no. 11, which is why they're so wonderful.

Edited by Fragile Bird, 15 August 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Tears of Lys]

Great post by Kalbear.  I would recommend Corgis too.  I don't have one, but my sister did.  Winston was AWESOME.  My dog was a rescue who had a checkered past.  It took a little while for him to learn the rules of the house, but he has and is the love of our lives.

Good luck in finding a great companion and friend!

[Nukelavee]

Hmmm.

We had a golden retriever growing up, Bear.  He was totally fine with being alone.  Never tore up the house, never had accidents if he wasn't sick, although he slept on Mom's bed.  Once he was older, we never needed to tether him, he only wandered over to the neighbours, because, treats were to be had.

We got him at 2 from a newspaper add.  He got old and fat and blind, but he was always a happy guy, died at 16.

Squiggle-pig was abandoned at 8-10 months in a field, and was starting to go a bit feral when they trapped her.  She was totally withdrawn when I got her.  Zero house training (and some serious issues with the training, just putting out pads or paper terrified her.)

Anyways - only had a couple of months where she shredded stuff.  Now, she's house trained, an attention whore, everybody's favourite fat little dog...

She hates being alone, and hates being away from me.  Bad seperation issues now.  She's chihuahua/jack russel.

The only issue with rescues is you don't know what trauma's it might have, so it might take a while to figure out the dog's quirks.

Sounds like you could handle a dog now, so, why not?

[Ixodes]

Jaime L, on 15 August 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

So with the scene set, I have several questions:

1) Is it cruel to adopt this dog without a yard to provide for it and long periods of time where it'll be alone.
2) Is it likely to tear up the house if I don't kennel it?
3) If the above is true, can this be mollified by either obedience school or doggy daycare?
4) Are there breeds I need to stay away from based on my living situation? Moreover are there breeds I should take a longer look at based on the kind of qualities I'm looking for?
5) As someone who's never owned a dog what are the biggest things I need to know? What will I be surprised by?
6) How much do you budget for your dog (i.e. food/pet accessories/vet visits etc.)? Just helps give me a sense of what I need to be prepared for.

1) Not cruel, as long as you plan on spending quality time.  It's the quality, not necessarily the quantity of time, you spend with a dog.  A yard is more of a convenience for you, rather than a necessity for the dog.  Without a yard you will have to walk her/him multiple times rather than opening the door and letting them go but don't think that a yard substitutes walks, play, quality time, etc.  As long as you make time for bathroom breaks, walks, play, you should be fine, yard or no.

2) Totally dependent on the personality of the dog.  A kennel is actually your friend and I would not consider bringing a dog into your situation without a kennel (at least initially).  Ideally, a kennel will serve as a secure area for the dog, where the dog is comfortable and you are comfortable.  I've had my rescue for 5+ years and I still kennel him every time I leave, mainly for my piece of mind rather than for house issues.  When you are gone the dog isn't going to be running laps or anything.  For your situation, if the dog is not comfortable in a kennel when you are away it will be the wrong dog for you situation.  Once you and s/he have adapted to each other, the kennel will be optional but initially it will be the way you will develop a level of trust and security.

3) Good obedience teaches you to communicate with the dog, so it is a great idea but not a replacement for your absence.  Doggy day care is great but keep in mind it is just kenneling with more activities.  If you can swing it, a good day care will be awesome but it is a luxury, not a necessity (as long as you do your part to spend good time with the dog when you can).

4) You will be in the market for a mixed breed dog so there are alot of variables that can be hard to predict.  Myself, if I were in your shoes I would stay away from anything with terrier, rottweiler, or husky in the mix.  I wish I could go with you because it will be the personality of the individual that will be most important and someone who knows dogs will be a great resource.  Retriever mixes are going to be the most common and the typical traits are probably what you are looking for.  Essentially, you want a dog that is confident, outgoing, and not hyper.  Many shelters will have a good staff that work hard to pair the right dog with the right owner, so don't discount their opinions.

5) If you want, contact me for some propaganda I can send you.  I work 10 hour days and my dogs do spend alot of time restricted.  I do have the advantage of taking them to work, so that negates alot of it.  Otherwise, I include the dog on days off/weekend activities and this compensates very well.  In terms of having a buddy to hike with/play ball with/etc, this may work out really well for you.  A dog is going to be an investment, in both time (most important) and resources (less important but still vital).  Overall, what you invest in your pet is going to correlate with what you take out of the relationship.  If you spend the time to do things (e.g., basic obedience, dog parks, agility, etc etc) you will find the relationship is more beneficial.  If you want something that will give you attention in the moments you aren't working then you may be let down.

6)  Here is what is going to cost money:  1) good quality diets are not cheap but in my experience dogs on quality foods do better.  Don't go cheap on the food.  There are alot of good products and I can provide my opinion, if wanted.  2) all dogs will need at least yearly exams with basic vaccinations.  Typically this will cost you anywhere from $90-120 a year.  3) In addition to basic shots, you will need to provide monthly parasite control.  This varies with geography but expect to pay anywhere from $120-300 a year, dependent on size/what is needed.  4) screening tests are the last routine cost that is worth your resources.  Annual heartworm disease/tick disease tests and annual fecal tests will run $50-100 yearly.  It is money well spent, IMO.  As the dog gets older routine bloodwork is something that I would recommend but if it is too much, that can be skipped (I don't think it should be skipped but money doesn't grow on trees...)

This doesn't include urgent visits, which do happen from time to time.  Just to give you an idea, my average visit transaction is around $170.  For simple things (e.g. skin infection) it will be a bit under but if you run into something complicated then the prices can go up quite a bit.  Again, it's so variable that it's hard to predict.  One thing that I see very commonly is dental disease (a dental visit isn't cheap!) so if you do get a dog, let me know and I'll give you some pointers on how to keep the mouth (and the rest of the body) healthy.

Wow.  I hope I didn't get too far off base for you.  Bottom line is this:  In your situation, with the right dog, I do feel that you both could be happy with your lifestyle/arrangement.  You will need to find the right dog for you, so don't get crazy and grab the first thing that comes your way.  I am more than happy to offer whatever advice/support I can offer.

[WillWork4NinjaPowers]

I have 2 pound puppies.  One is a high energy beagle/Aussie mix.  She's about 6 now, and still can get puppy style hyper.  I also have a Lab/GermShep/Pit mix.  She was the runt and is about 55lbs.  

Now, the Beagle/Aussie is completely unable to go outside without a leash, even though she is an adult.  The Lab/GermShep/Pit mix is about 11 months old, and will run around the yard without taking off, and even can go on walks without leaving us.  Both have crates for dogs 4x their size, (like Pyrenees size), and they have a giant gerbil type water feeder attached to their kennels, as well as toys and "snacks" in their kennel.  

Neither seem to dislike being in their crates, and happily go to them at night.  When I turn the living room lights off, they actually walk downstairs on their own and lay down.  

Both of my dogs are great runners.  The beagle/Aussie doesn't go for runs much, because she had a serious injury, (stabbed through chest by a tree branch.  Very bizarre).  The other loves to run.  She's very muscular and loves it.  

A lot of people don't want to pet my puppy because she has shepard markings, but pitt eyes.  She is the sweetest and most gentle dog I have ever had.  She's only chewed 2 pairs of shoes, (my faves, I was pissed), and has had minimal accidents.  She is a fairly calm house dog.  She has been a wonderful puppy, considering most of the time, she is more laid back than the adult dog.

Don't count a dog out because it looks "mean."

I've heard Rhodesian Ridgebacks are great for runners to own.

[drawkcabi]

Jaime L, on 15 August 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

So with the scene set, I have several questions:

1) Is it cruel to adopt this dog without a yard to provide for it and long periods of time where it'll be alone.
2) Is it likely to tear up the house if I don't kennel it?
3) If the above is true, can this be mollified by either obedience school or doggy daycare?
4) Are there breeds I need to stay away from based on my living situation? Moreover are there breeds I should take a longer look at based on the kind of qualities I'm looking for?
5) As someone who's never owned a dog what are the biggest things I need to know? What will I be surprised by?
6) How much do you budget for your dog (i.e. food/pet accessories/vet visits etc.)? Just helps give me a sense of what I need to be prepared for.

Any answers to the above or even better sharing your adoption experience will be greatly appreciated just to give me a sense of what I might be in for and whether this makes sense giving my living situation. Plus, I understand I get evicted from Denver if I remain the last person in this down without a dog... so if we can make this work out that would be fantastic.

Thanks guys!

With these questions and criteria I'd consider along with  going to local shelters to go to petfider.com where the people there who have taken time to put up the dog's photo's and stats they usually also have taken the time to know a little bit more about each dog's individual personality. These are still dgs from shelters, always starting at the most local and go out as far as your search criteria states, some of them have all ready been "rescued" from shelters but are in foster homes and still really need their "for good" homes.

1.
There are some dogs that think it is their job to watch the home and are fine with being left alone for hours as long as they get walks 2-3 times a say at least one of them being a nice long one. So no, I don't think it's cruel to adopt a dog if you don't have a yard as long as you've done research as best you can that the dog will be able to be ok with it. Again you can sometimes learn a lot about a particular dog from the shelter/rescue people.

2.
Dog are peculiar about new territory, it might be perfectly respectful of everything in your home except this one pair of shoes or this one trash can, they just get it in their heads it's theirs to do with as they please. Or they could be total terrors until they get used to their new home, or it might take extensive training to get it straight what they are allowed to touch - toys, bones, water dish, etc. and what they aren't - trash cans, shoes, laundry, furniture, etc.

3.
Obedience training can help the more faithful you are to the training the more faithful the dog will be. But they are some seriously stubborn dogs out there.

4.
If you are looking for a shelter dog you are mostly likely going to be finding mixed breeds. If you are looking for a bigger dog please, please, please look into pet codes in your area. Pitbulls are banned in Denver and this means pitbull mixes or maybe dogs that just look like pitbulls.

Otherwise there are breeds that are known for personality traits but there are always exceptions and misrepresentations, again talk to anyone who might know particular dog at least semi-well.

5.
From my experiences there will be surprises but most of them will be good as you get to know your dog and they get to know you.

6.
I can't do better than Ixodes on cost assessments for a dog.

[Nukelavee]

Do you think different breeds of dog are aware of their differences.  Like, do Schnauzers look at Boxers and think "Holy, shit, that guy is an idiot!"

[Sci-2]

not sure if this was mentioned -> if you never had a dog, you may want to dog sit and the like.

eta: also maybe walk shelter dogs.

Edited by sciborg2, 15 August 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[LacyinTX]

Schnauzers think everybody is an idiot.

[Tears of Lys]

WillWork4NinjaPowers, on 15 August 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

/snip

I've heard Rhodesian Ridgebacks are great for runners to own.

I'm pretty sure my Benny is a Ridgeback, or at least part.  He looks exactly like them.  He's a wonderful dog and, boy, does he like to run!  He used to take off after deer on our property, but now is trained to stay in our un-fenced yard.

I totally agree with Ixodes upthread about not getting a Husky.  My parents and I, between us, owned around three of them.  They definitely did NOT like to be left alone and were quite emphatic about it.  They totally destroyed a couch - right down to the wood frame.

BTW, I'd love to hear Ix's recommendations on keeping a dog's teeth cleaned.  Benny's look pretty good, but could always be improved.

[LacyinTX]

Short answers because I'm posting from my phone:

A yard is nice, but not required.

The crate is a must. Just don't use it as punishment. It should be the place your dog wants to spend his down time.

And lastly, I like German Shorthaired Pointers if you want a larger breed. Great indoors or out. We have had them for years. They are very versatile and really smart.

Best of luck!

[naz]

Not much to add (esp. after Ixodes' post), but here's two things:

1. A dogwalker as an alternative to doggy daycare. This person will have access to your home, which you may not feel 100% comfortable with, but it's an option.

2. One of the best books I've seen on dogs is Katz on Dogs, by Jon Katz. It debunks a lot of myths that people have about dog training and behavior. Actually, I'd really be interested in what Ixodes thinks about this book, because it's also rubbed a lot of dog-owners the wrong way, mainly because of the myth-debunking which some dog-owners refuse to accept. Here's an excerpt from an Amazon review:

Quote

I came across a column by Jon Katz online (which was taken from this book) which basically said it's dangerous to put too much of our own emotions onto our dogs - to think that they're mad at us for going to work, for example. Being reminded that my dog was just a dog, no matter how lovable or personable she can be, was the nudge that I needed. Shortly after reading that article, I saw this book at the bookstore and picked it up.

This book does not provide any grand theory on dog training. It will not teach you how to teach your dog to sit, shake, or roll over. But it is an extremely helpful book because it teaches us - the humans - the importance of training. Training, according to Katz, is how we help dogs navigate our big and confusing world. Training is ongoing. A six week course or one week of focusing on 'sit' is a good thing, but it doesn't end there. Our dogs need boundaries, and they're often looking to us to figure out how to get through situations. Untrained dogs are the ones stealing food from the table, jumping on guests, and so on. It's our responsibility as dog owners to recognize this, including its impact on other people (people met on the street, visitors to the house, etc).

[Tears of Lys]

Benny is defnitely given boundaries.  For example, he's not allowed in the kitchen.  He knows the cut-off line and won't go beyond.  (Sometimes maybe a paw will creep in as he's watching me cook.)

He's not allowed upstairs.  After the first couple of years, he settled right down into this groove and now won't go upstairs.  At first, though, he'd carry down an item from upstairs while we were gone just to show us he could.  It was pretty hard not to laugh!

[Nukelavee]

Squig isn't actually formally forbidden many things, but doesn't have any behaviours I see as issues.  I can leave a package of her favourite treats open on the ground, she won't go near them.  She very rarely wanders away, but she's never left the building's grounds.

(it's odd when she does, because she's usually on her leash, and she hates getting it between her feet.  She has this crazy roll she does to wind it up over her back, and just trots along like that.  I'm convinced she thinks she's fooling people into thinking she has permission or something)

I didn't formally train her, it was more vague than that, lol.  With her, just ignoring her is a horrible punishment, so, it was easy to let her know i was displeased with her, and she was smart enough to give up the habit.  And praise when she is good.

It's kind of ironic that the issues from her first owners made her so eager to please.

[Jaime L]

Thanks guys! Lot of really good responses here and stuff I hadn't considered. Will look into Corgis specifically and other breeds mentioned here*. I get I won't get a purebreed at a shelter, though helps me get a sense of the common traits of the different breeds that might make up some of the ones I've been reading up about online. It's like online dating, but with dogs. So obviously awesome.

Ixodes, gonna reach out with a PM to you in the next day or so.

*Was actually visited by a Rhodesian Ridgeback while outside at Chipotle the other day - was an awesome dog. Could actually feel my risk of lion attack go down 95%

[Triskele]

Jaime - Please, if you bear any love for me at all (and I do not assume that you do) do not even consider the hellbeast that is the "golden."

[Triskele]

Fragile Bird, on 15 August 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

You are right to wonder about breeds - a highly intelligent dog like a golden retriever or a lab could very well take to ripping your house apart while you are out.

Call off your hellhound before it's allowed to take root.

[Tears of Lys]

Jaime L, on 15 August 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

Thanks guys! Lot of really good responses here and stuff I hadn't considered. Will look into Corgis specifically and other breeds mentioned here*. I get I won't get a purebreed at a shelter, though helps me get a sense of the common traits of the different breeds that might make up some of the ones I've been reading up about online. It's like online dating, but with dogs. So obviously awesome.

Ixodes, gonna reach out with a PM to you in the next day or so.

*Was actually visited by a Rhodesian Ridgeback while outside at Chipotle the other day - was an awesome dog. Could actually feel my risk of lion attack go down 95%

As an aside, Corgis are chick magnets.  Ridgebacks are sort of intimidating.  Don't know if that works into your decision-making or not.