477 replies to this topic

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Where whores go <&#045;, on 20 September 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Woah woah i was definitely not opening that can of worms. Merely stating that chapters featuring sweet Robin are almost impossible to read for his annoying demeanor.

Not to mention i don't hear anyone defending Joffery the same way....since the parallels  are unmistakable. The Kid wants to throw everyone of the top of a mountain to his whims and thoughts. He is a total sociopath. He is the ultimate stark relief of why monarchy is fallacy. He is the weakest least suited, cruelest choice to rule yet in a position of power because of his birth.

For the Arry to remain viable he has to go eventually.

Comparing sweetrobin to joffrey is a tad to much. Because I cant recall the moment where sweetrobin cut a pregnant cat? Sweetrobin only wanted two people to fly. Tyrion a guy he thought that killed his father, and marillion who apparently killed his mother. He saw them as the bad guys. Completely different from joffrey. Sweetrobin may be annoying, but it is not a good reason for him to die. sweetrobin is actually showing some improvement. He shows he is capable of being brave and save Sansa, wants to be a lord worthy of the vale, and has lessened his bratty attitude a little bit. There is hope for this boy.

[Where Boars Glow]

Queen Sansa Stark, on 20 September 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Comparing sweetrobin to joffrey is a tad to much. Because I cant recall the moment where sweetrobin cut a pregnant cat? Sweetrobin only wanted two people to fly. Tyrion a guy he thought that killed his father, and marillion who apparently killed his mother. He saw them as the bad guys. Completely different from joffrey. Sweetrobin may be annoying, but it is not a good reason for him to die. sweetrobin is actually showing some improvement. He shows he is capable of being brave and save Sansa, wants to be a lord worthy of the vale, and has lessened his bratty attitude a little bit. There is hope for this boy.

Only two people he almost had thrown wrongly to their deaths without a moments hesitation like a child playing with toys....Oh thats cool then. We definately aren't talking about the same kind of bad parenting that make children into monsters.

[Jalapenohitchhiker]

Where whores go <-, on 20 September 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Only two people he almost had thrown wrongly to their deaths without a moments hesitation like a child playing with toys....Oh thats cool then. We definately aren't talking about the same kind of bad parenting that make children into monsters.

Have to agree here. We never saw what Joffrey was like at that age. Who is to say he didn't start out the same way as sweetrobin?

[Dǽmon Blackfyre]

She was rescued by Little Finger. and no one will re-rescue her because no one knows where she is. Also, LF intends to marry her to the heir of the vale (once Robert dies and he will die) and at the wedding it will be revealed that Sansa is actually a stark and thus heir to winterfell and the vale will want to win it back for her. YES. Plus LF is good to Sansa, albiet in a creepy way, but he is still an angel compared to her days with Joffrey.

[Fire Eater]

Queen Sansa Stark, on 18 September 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Plus I will say it again Sansa represents the deconstruction of the classic princess/damsel in distress trope. Since Grrm is a major troll and likes to pull a twist to the typical fantasy archertype I fully expect that Sansa will save herself, sweetrobin and the vale from pedobear by taking him down. Brienne, jaime ore lady stoneheart could do the killing. That would be fitting.

It could also be a deconstruction of a knight coming to rescue a damsel in distress trope as Ser Shardich AKA the Mad Mouse is at the Eyrie not to rescue Sansa, but to deliver her to Cersei. Sansa will save herself, and Sweetrobin as well.

Edited by Fire Eater, 21 September 2012 - 12:45 AM.

[Zman1863]

Queen Sansa Stark, on 20 September 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Comparing sweetrobin to joffrey is a tad to much. Because I cant recall the moment where sweetrobin cut a pregnant cat? Sweetrobin only wanted two people to fly. Tyrion a guy he thought that killed his father, and marillion who apparently killed his mother. He saw them as the bad guys. Completely different from joffrey. Sweetrobin may be annoying, but it is not a good reason for him to die. sweetrobin is actually showing some improvement. He shows he is capable of being brave and save Sansa, wants to be a lord worthy of the vale, and has lessened his bratty attitude a little bit. There is hope for this boy.

The thing about the Joff/Sweetrobin comparison is that they are both children by our standards, but by the standards of the world they live in Joffrey's extra few years of age make him close to being considered a full grown man. I think that makes us forget how young he was. If its alright for all of us to have been happy that Joffrey got his comeuppance, I don't think it is completely wrong of us to be cynical and indifferent about LF's plan's to nurse (or steer) Sweetrobin to his grave. Still  Sweetrobin definitely is a more sympathetic character because he has debilitating physical problems and his stunted emotional development can be traced to Lysa in a way that Joffrey's innate cruelty cannot be squarely put on Cersei and King Robert.  

As others have pointed out, we don't really know what kind of emotional reaction Sansa has to LF's plan to marry her to the heir and wait for Sweetrobin death, other than surprise. I would have to agree that knowing that LF is orchestrating her cousin's death might bring a change. Giving the kid dangerous drugs to keep him quiet had a purpose- getting him down safely before they couldn't get down at all.

I think Sansa's past also points to her protecting her cousin. Since she has in the past screwed over her family members because of stupidity (Ned) and because of spite (Arya), I think she is due for some redemption. Protecting her cousin would also be a good contrast to the treatment she received at the hands of her insane aunt. Finally, the fact that Sansa has always been a pawn in the games, and now understands that, I think it would make sense if she helped the weakest pawn of all, her little cousin.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

The reason why the comparison of Joffrey and Sweetrobin is weird to me is because Joffrey and Robert are two complete different people with different life environments. Joffrey has unfortunately inherited certain and very obvious character traits from Cersei as having been influenced by Robert (disrespect to women, lacking responsibility and that ridiculous notion that a king should be bold). However Joffrey also ordered to kill  Ned, ordered his guard to beat the crap of a young girl.

Just what are we holding against SweetRobin exactly? That he wanted Tyrion and Marillion to fly out of the moon door? This poor kid has been manipulated by Lysa into thinking that Tyrion was responsible for his father´s death. And Marillion was accused for the death of his mother. Instead of pitying this poor kid for loosing both of parents at the age of eight/nine years people are wanting him to die only because he is spoiled? And do not get me wrong he is horrible spoiled, but being spoiled is not enough valid reason of wanting a character died let alone if the character is an already traumatized eight year old boy. Plus him being spoiled should be pointed at the horrible parenting of Lysa and Jon NOT at the kid. Thank god that Sansa has some good influence on him. This is another factor why SweetRobin is different from Joffrey and have other fate then him. Unlike Joffrey, SweetRobin is young enough to have some influence that could be good for him. Like I have stated before Robert Arryn showed us that he is capable of being brave, actually believing he could be a lord worthy of the vale and honestly I find him, even if its little bit, just a little bit less spoiled then before.

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I think Sansa's past also points to her protecting her cousin. Since she has in the past screwed over her family members because of stupidity (Ned) and because of spite (Arya), I think she is due for some redemption. Protecting her cousin would also be a good contrast to the treatment she received at the hands of her insane aunt. Finally, the fact that Sansa has always been a pawn in the games, and now understands that, I think it would make sense if she helped the weakest pawn of all, her little cousin.

I beg to differ. Sansa has never betrayed her family. To actually betray someone you must have a complete conscious of the picture. What Sansa did was wrong, but she was kept in the dark by Ned which is something everyone conveniently seems to forget. There is a stark difference between being disobedient and actually committing a betrayal. And all Sansa did was disobeying Ned, and that could have been all avoided if Ned was crystal clear to Sansa as he was to Arya. And NO the line "It is better that no one should know of our plans" from Ned is far far to ambiguous to be good explaining what was going on. It was purely a stupid move from Ned, and even more stupider move to throw Arya a sweetener and completely ignore Sansa. Just when did Sansa do something against Arya out of spite. I cannot ever recall that in AGOT. Unless you're talking about the whole Micah/lady incident? "I don't remember" line is neither in favor for Arya ore Joffrey. It is completely neutral.

Sansa actually needs an redemption ? Yes of course a kid who was ignorant, naive, kind of a snob and a little bit silly seriously needs an redemption arc.

Sansa is right now at a crossroad. Sweetrobin is obviously her very first moral test. What will she do: Will she let SweetRobin being killed, and therefore allying with Little Finger and tainting her moral compass for the very first time, ore will Sansa actively go against Little Finger by deciding to protect Sweetrobin?

Edited by Queen Sansa Stark, 22 September 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Tini]

I am not sure that SweetRobin will have to die to lose the Vale. If the Vale lords realize the extent of his health problems, they might support passing the lordship to his heir Harry while Robin is still alive.

Robb Stark considered to set aside his siblings' claims to the North in favor of Jon. Sure, at the time he had no sons, Sansa was married to Tyrion, Arya's whereabouts were unknown, and Bran and Rickon were thought dead. But Robb told Catelyn that even if they were still alive, even if he had children, they were too young to lead the North. He told her that the North needed a strong leader. A strong grown-up leader. That was why he intended to legitimize Jon.

I think it possible that Littlefinger plans something similar. Robin is a sickly child while Harry is a healthy man with leadership potential. If Harry marries the rightful Lady of Winterfell, they might follow Sansa and Harry while Robin lives. Especially if Robin lives, and Sansa and Harry guarantee his well-being.

Robin's position will only become precarious (well, more precarious) when news about Rickon's return start spreading. Rickon's claim to Winterfell surpasses Sansa's, it  weakens Sansa's position and therefore poses a danger to Littlefinger's plans. The North will likely choose Rickon over Sansa. The Vale lords might support Sansa's claims against the Boltons but not against her own brother. Sansa herself would refuse to fight her own brother, she would support him.

Littlefinger will be forced to adjust his plans for Rickon's return, he might have to speed up his plans and move before Sansa and the Vale hear the news. And that might include killing little Robert. I think it would be enough to turn Sansa against Littlefinger but it might be too late for little Robert. But then this thread is not about who will rescue Robert Arryn.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

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But then this thread is not about who will rescue Robert Arryn.

Yes this thread may not be about who will rescue Robert Arryn. However when, yes I say when, Sansa rescues herself I think she would also save SweetRobin this is the best twist you can ever give the damsel in distress trope. Not only saving herself, but also someone who is weaker then her .

[houseHB]

Sandor Clegane's final act will be doing what Brandon Stark should have completed, killing littlefinger and rescuing his jonquil.

[cforrester]

i think sansa will be saved because littlefinger is much more practiced at the game than she is. Im not questioning her ability to save herself (that is an extremely likely option) but i can see the Hound saving sansa in from littlefinger with the aid of Jaime, Brienne and the Blackfish. Jaime gets them in, Blackfish knows the Vale and the other two fill a support role.  

I could also see in the last book, tying into the valonquar and the fact i think Sansa will be Aegon's Queen rather than Margaery (because she is Tommen's Queen and the Tyrell power rests on Tommen's Crown) or Daenerys (who is actually infertile after the debacle with Mirri Maz Duur, which would simply end the Targaryen bloodline and restart the power vacuum) that sansa returns to KL with an army from the Vale and maybe the Golden Company and there Cersei tries to kill her because of Maggy's prophecy when the Hound strangles her and finally kills Gregor.

Alternative killers could be Blackfish, Aegon, Tyrion, Jaime even Stannis  because they are all little brothers that Cersei has wronged

[gingerpunk]

I love the idea of Sansa ending up with a valiant, handsome prince after going through hell. True that she was one of my least favorite characters at the starting point, with all her fairy tale dreams that ended up biting her family in the ass, but I really started to feel badly for her when Ned was killed and she spent her days at the mercy of Joffrey and Cersei. People like Tyrion being protective over her is the way she seems to have stayed in tact, and it did annoy me how dismissive she was of Tyrion's kindness, and how her thoughts about him always seemed to hover on where she felt he was lacking. On the other hand, Tyrion is a Lannister and he himself can hardly blame Sansa for not trusting him. I think though that Sansa Stark has done a lot of growing up these five books, but I also think she has a lot of growing up yet to do. I would love to see her marry Aegon and get her happy ending, but not until she does for herself. I want to see her make a play to rescue her cousin, because he is a frail child, and helping him is the right thing to do. I want to see her become more worldly and stop leaving her fate in the hands of others. So, really, I'd rather Sansa earn a happy ending than be given one.

[Newstar]

My problem with Sansa as Aegon's queen is that there is some strong hinting in the books to suggest that Varys' confidence in Aegon as leadership material is misplaced, that Aegon is going to be the one left holding the bag when everything goes to Hell in King's Landing, and that whatever success/popularity he experiences will be fleeting. If that's the case, whoever is Aegon's queen when things go to Hell in King's Landing will likely get taken down with him. (I doubt it will be Margaery or Dany...maybe someone affiliated with the Martells? Myrcella hasn't been technically crowned yet, although I don't know why he would wed her. Aegon also seems young and impulsive enough to make a dumb marriage, like Robb did.) I wouldn't wish that fate on Sansa.

I kind of feel like Jaime and Brienne are going to be busy with Stoneheart and the Riverlands, when (if?) Jaime gets Stoneheart to keep him alive. Jaime and Brienne might be our POV eyes and ears for a possible Red Wedding 2.0 at Riverrun (Daven Lannister's Frey wedding), so practical reasons would keep them from the Vale, at least for a little while.

Edited by Newstar, 23 September 2012 - 04:13 PM.

[aryagonnakill]

Where whores go <-, on 20 September 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Only two people he almost had thrown wrongly to their deaths without a moments hesitation like a child playing with toys....Oh thats cool then. We definately aren't talking about the same kind of bad parenting that make children into monsters.

even tho I have disagreed with queen sansa on other occasions I have to agree here because where joffrey seems evil robin just seems stupid and manipulated by his mother, I think he can be saved from becoming evil, I also think ignorance and evil are different. If your parents had raised you terrible you would have come out/could have come out like robin, if your parents had raised you terrible you would only have come out like joffrey if you were born a certain way, imho.

[Fire Eater]

Queen Sansa Stark, on 22 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Yes this thread may not be about who will rescue Robert Arryn. However when, yes I say when, Sansa rescues herself I think she would also save SweetRobin this is the best twist you can ever give the damsel in distress trope. Not only saving herself, but also someone who is weaker then her .

What will be the point where she snaps and does so? Could it be when Petyr goes too far and makes the same attempt as Marillion, or when she learns of the large role he played in her father's fall, like influencing Joff to behead Eddard and what he did with her friend Jeyne?

[aryagonnakill]

Queen Sansa Stark, on 22 September 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

The reason why the comparison of Joffrey and Sweetrobin is weird to me is because Joffrey and Robert are two complete different people with different life environments. Joffrey has unfortunately inherited certain and very obvious character traits from Cersei as having been influenced by Robert (disrespect to women, lacking responsibility and that ridiculous notion that a king should be bold). However Joffrey also ordered to kill  Ned, ordered his guard to beat the crap of a young girl.

Just what are we holding against SweetRobin exactly? That he wanted Tyrion and Marillion to fly out of the moon door? This poor kid has been manipulated by Lysa into thinking that Tyrion was responsible for his father´s death. And Marillion was accused for the death of his mother. Instead of pitying this poor kid for loosing both of parents at the age of eight/nine years people are wanting him to die only because he is spoiled? And do not get me wrong he is horrible spoiled, but being spoiled is not enough valid reason of wanting a character died let alone if the character is an already traumatized eight year old boy. Plus him being spoiled should be pointed at the horrible parenting of Lysa and Jon NOT at the kid. Thank god that Sansa has some good influence on him. This is another factor why SweetRobin is different from Joffrey and have other fate then him. Unlike Joffrey, SweetRobin is young enough to have some influence that could be good for him. Like I have stated before Robert Arryn showed us that he is capable of being brave, actually believing he could be a lord worthy of the vale and honestly I find him, even if its little bit, just a little bit less spoiled then before.



I beg to differ. Sansa has never betrayed her family. To actually betray someone you must have a complete conscious of the picture. What Sansa did was wrong, but she was kept in the dark by Ned which is something everyone conveniently seems to forget. There is a stark difference between being disobedient and actually committing a betrayal. And all Sansa did was disobeying Ned, and that could have been all avoided if Ned was crystal clear to Sansa as he was to Arya. And NO the line "It is better that no one should know of our plans" from Ned is far far to ambiguous to be good explaining what was going on. It was purely a stupid move from Ned, and even more stupider move to throw Arya a sweetener and completely ignore Sansa. Just when did Sansa do something against Arya out of spite. I cannot ever recall that in AGOT. Unless you're talking about the whole Micah/lady incident? "I don't remember" line is neither in favor for Arya ore Joffrey. It is completely neutral.

Sansa actually needs an redemption ? Yes of course a kid who was ignorant, naive, kind of a snob and a little bit silly seriously needs an redemption arc.

Sansa is right now at a crossroad. Sweetrobin is obviously her very first moral test. What will she do: Will she let SweetRobin being killed, and therefore allying with Little Finger and tainting her moral compass for the very first time, ore will Sansa actively go against Little Finger by deciding to protect Sweetrobin?

not trying to restart an unending argument but if your argueing that sansa saying she didn't remember was neutral than you are also argueing that she was a total idiot that couldn't remember the largest event of her life only a day before, i mean really that wouldn't make her dumber than sweetrobin?  To use a real life example it is like saying that someone who ran a marathon really couldn't remember how long it took them, they can remember perfectly it just doesn't benefit them to do so. But not remembering benefits one side over the other.  I can completely understand why Sansa said I don't remember, but if my cat had suddenly been sentenced to death because of what I said I would have changed my statement instantly(I don't have a direwolf I have a cat) So in conclusion I am saying that since it benefitted joffrey and hurt both herself and arya it wasn't neutral. Again not trying to get into an unending argument about the meaning of the word betrayal.

[brashcandy]

Fire Eater, on 23 September 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

What will be the point where she snaps and does so? Could it be when Petyr goes too far and makes the same attempt as Marillion, or when she learns of the large role he played in her father's fall, like influencing Joff to behead Eddard and what he did with her friend Jeyne?

I don't think it's going to be anything so dramatic. I think Sansa has been longing for freedom for a while, and as Alayne Stone she may just have the confidence to seize it. Now that LF is threatening SR's life, and wants to marry her off again, she'll have to take some action to bring about her desired future.

[aryagonnakill]

brashcandy, on 23 September 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

I don't think it's going to be anything so dramatic. I think Sansa has been longing for freedom for a while, and as Alayne Stone she may just have the confidence to seize it. Now that LF is threatening SR's life, and wants to marry her off again, she'll have to take some action to bring about her desired future.

I think littlefinger will try to take Sansa's maidenhead, as he has repeatedly said he did, but didn't with Catlyn, and as Viserys tried to do with Danaerys.  I think it will be here where Sansa kills him with the choker, not sure if he succeeds or not.  Simple forecast but profound, she will arrive at her wedding with Harry without Littlefinger dressed as Sansa.

[aryagonnakill]

Just to be clear, i am only saying that Sansa was not being neutral when she said she didn't remember, since it benefitted Joffrey and not Arya/Sansa. I am saying she was stupid enough/timid enough to not say anything to save Lady.

[Newstar]

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I think littlefinger will try to take Sansa's maidenhead, as he has repeatedly said he did, but didn't with Catlyn, and as Viserys tried to do with Danaerys.

Littlefinger trying to rape Sansa is so predictable that it almost seems...trite. It seems so clear and so obvious that things are headed in that direction that I hope it doesn't happen, especially since Sansa's arc is full of guys fixing to rape her (Joffrey, Marillion, etc. etc.). Can't GRRM come up with something different for once? Really, though, Sansa's had so many near misses with rape that I worry someone at some point along the line is going to succeed, and if anyone were to succeed, it would likely be Littlefinger, whose sexual interest in her was telegraphed all the way back in AGOT ("Something about the way the small man looked at her made Sansa feel as though she had no clothes on").

...Of course, Sansa seems to be getting to be so messed in the head by Littlefinger's manipulations and sexual boundary pushing that by the time he actually does try to have sex with her, she might just go along with the abuse and not feel able to refuse him or fight back. Littlefinger is basically "grooming" Sansa the way pedophiles groom their victims to lower the victim's inhibitions and resistance and accept the pedophile's advances as normal, and it seems to be working. This doesn't mean that Sansa wouldn't necessarily fight back or resist, but Littlefinger's manipulations are aimed at taking away her defences, and these tactics are often successfully employed by pedophiles to ensure that their victims will not fight back or resist. It doesn't mean that Sansa's weak, any more than any victim of a pedophile is weak; it means that her abuser's a sick freak. Still, it could go that way, although I'm hoping GRRM does not go that route.

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I think it will be here where Sansa kills him with the choker, not sure if he succeeds or not.

How would that work, exactly? She'd have to have a cup of some liquid on hand, get a stone free from the hairnet, somehow manage to dissolve it in the liquid, and force it down Littlefinger's throat, all while he's trying to rape her. I can't really picture that happening.

The use of the hairnet as poison would involve premeditated murder. It's not like a knife you can just whip out and wave around to defend yourself. I don't think Sansa is capable of coldly planning to murder someone ahead of time and then following through, even now, no matter what the provocation, even if it were to save an innocent child's life. She just isn't wired that way.

With all that said, the hairnet does seem to be a bit of a Chekhov's gun. Littlefinger's unlikely to get shoved out the Moon Door as the Eyrie is shut down for the winter, but him choking to death as Joffrey did would be a fitting punishment. I'm not sure how he gets there, though, if Sansa isn't going to poison him, and Sansa's the only one who knows the truth about her hairnet amethysts aside from Littlefinger. (Could Littlefinger be accidentally poisoned? Again, it doesn't seem possible.)

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Simple forecast but profound, she will arrive at her wedding with Harry without Littlefinger dressed as Sansa.

I can't imagine her willingly marrying Harry without Littlefinger backing her into it. I personally hope she stays far away from Harry, since he is 1) handsome and 2) gallant/charming, and no good can come of that combination in these books. (Do we even know that his bastards were conceived through consensual sex? I'm not saying he's a Joffrey-level psychopath, but Joffrey could be plenty charming as well, when it suited him. Not that I'm looking forward to another would-be rapist in Sansa's storyline.)

Edited by Newstar, 23 September 2012 - 11:53 PM.