24 replies to this topic

[Rhaegar's Ghost]

Hey guys,

First time posting, just finished all the books and have been really enjoying all the discussion and theories. R+L=J for sure. There is, however, one storyline that I haven't seen much discussion about, and that's Victarion's involvement in Dany's quest for Westeros. At the end of DwD, we see Victarion and Moqorro discussing the aptly-named Dragonbinder given to Victarion by Euron to claim Dany and her dragons. Let's assume for a minute that Dany finds her way back to Meereen or some nearby coast along Slaver's Bay, and that Victarion and Dany will at some point confront each other.

Victarion currently is of the mind to take Dany and her dragons for himself (the Iron price) and crown himself king of the Iron Throne. We don't exactly know the full power of the horn as a weapon, but we do know that is is in fact very powerful. As such, it is a weapon to be feared, yet Dany's stubbornness and ignorance of it's power will likely lead the two to have a less than friendly first encounter. I see two main options for how this scenario plays out:

1) Dany and Victarion befriend each other with a common goal, sail to Westeros and claim the Iron Throne. After 5 books, I can confidently say this will not happen, due to a combination of Iron-born culture and Dany's stubbornness to claim what she wants and make little or no sacrifice along the way, let alone her hesitation to trust due to her beliefs in the prophecy (3 treasons). Though Dany befriendin/using Victarion for his ships is something she could potentially do, I just don't see these two incredibly proud characters finding a way to work together, unless she falsely believes him to be one of the heads of the dragon. Either way, this team up will not end well and I don't think it's gonna happen so I'm not gonna talk about it more.

2) Victarion will attempt to subdue and claim Dany, in keeping with Iron-born custom. Yea, he gonna lose, but the price of his defeat is what is up for debate.

It is likely that he takes control of at least one of the dragons (rhaegal or/and viserion). What this means in terms of damage and casualties is uncertain. The ensuing battle could set dragon against Drogon, burn all of his ship, destroy Meereen, or some small combo of all of the above in varying degrees. It is unlikely that the one of the dragons will die, but we don't know the full power of the Dragonbinder. Does it kill the dragon once the user is defeated or the horn is broken or does the hypnosis lose hold of the dragon and return it to its own free will?

Either way I believe Victarion's defeat will require the sacrifice of a major character, the likes of Mormont, Tyrion, or Missandei. It could be they die killing Victarion/destroying the horn (which I believe are simultaneous events), saving Dany, or using the Dragonbinder to bind the dragons back to Dany, though I think their innate love for Dany as their mother will not necessitate the latter.

Once Victarion is defeated, Dany will take his remaining fleet, and with her newfound sense of resilience and duty to honor said sacrifice, she will finally sail West.

What do you guys think?

[Winterfellian]

Welcome to the board!

Is really difficult to determine Victarion's role in Dany's storyline. I always felt that Victarion was just part of a ploy by Euron to steal the dragons but at the same time Euron never factor in Moqorro in his plans. Since Moqorro along with the red priests in Essos have asigned some kind of Messiah role to Dany I seriously doubt him being on Victarion's side. In other words the person that stands to loose the most is Victarion. He might be the major sacrifice you talked about in your post.
I don't really see them becoming friends to be honest. Victarion, like you said, plans to claim the iron price concerning Dany and I don't really see her taking a back seat, specially taking into account her last ADWD chapter.
One thing I do think is that the Iron fleet is the fleet Dany will be taking to Westeros which might be seriously bad PR for Dany considering the bad image the Iron Born has in Westeros and the foreigness of Dany's entourage..

[Stoned Dragon]

First off, totally excited for a maritime post - totally underrated on this forum!

1) I don't think Dany is going to actually encounter Victarion. It seems to me that Dany is about to begin her whole Luke-Skywalker-Training-in-isolation-Phase. She ends ADwD basically realizing that her entire plot in Mereen was a failure and a sham and that wasn't her damn job anyway. She had dragons to look after, but adopted thousands of freed slaves she couldn't care for. The whole idea of her big prophesy from Quaithe (...to go forward, you must go back...) seems to set up a return to the Dothraki Sea and a new opportunity to be a Khalesi. She also had that vision in the house of the undying where the crones from the Vaes Dothrak (IIRC) emerge from the water and that hasn't happened yet. Lastly, she promises that the next time she ran into Drogo's blood rider again she was going to kill him, and she just happens to be perfectly placed to that. It sucks that we are going to spend the entire Battle of Mereen hearing each character wonder where the hell Dany is, but girl has an opportunity here to do something interesting and exciting with her storyline, so I kinda hope she takes it and stays away....

2) ....but knowing Dany she probably won't, but assuming you're right I don't think Victarion is actually going to be able to control the horn. Not only does he have a fire priest who willingly boarded a doomed ship and then jumped off and somehow survived in the ocean without water merely to get to her, but Euron gave that horn to Victarion and - to quote Vic, "Euron's gifts are cursed". Which also brings me to the mute woman that Vic keeps around, as she is a gift too - a gift that he has told every single one of his plans to. Lastly, that horn has to be claimed and the inscription is in High Valeryian (which Vic doesn't speak) and was probably already claimed by Euron. The real question I think we should ask is a) is Euron in the fleet and how can Euron control the dragons (assuming the horn is bound to him) if he isn't around to actually instruct them? The only person that would possibly help him is Tyrion, and Tyrion needs Dany to win the war if he hopes to have any sway or power - especially since Aegon's presence would no doubt complicate that Vic-having-a-dragon-thing-thanks-to-Tyrion thing.

3) Even if the horn works, I think its doubtful that Vic enjoys it long enough to matter. Even if Euron isn't in the fleet, Vic still has to deal with Moqorro. He still has to the deal with blockade surrounding Mereen. He still has to contend with the 300 Volantine ships that are coming to help Mereen, but are staffed by slaves loyal to both the Red God and the "Breaker of Chains". If somehow Vic manages to get through all of those obstacles, he still has to deal with Dany's forces within Mereen, Tyrion is probably going to swing the sellswords her way, and there is an incredibly knowledgable Archmaester on his way to Dany right now. Lastly, Dany herself has the most powerful of the Dragons already bonded to her as well as a possible Khalisar and a woman (Quaithe) who can see through the glass candles and communicate events to Dany. [WOW! Writing it out like that makes it really clear how much plot armor actually surrounds Dany!]

4) So if we know that Vic is probably going to die, and we know that Dany probably won't even be in the city, I think the only purpose of the Battle (narratively) is to destroy Mereen. I happen to think that the MMD "prophesy" about the sun rising in the east, setting in the west is actually being fulfilled and since the Sun (Quentyn) has obviously set, it is time for the "mountains crumble" bit, which to me seems like the pyramids of Mereen. Destroying the city frees Dany from her obligations and pretty much ends this Eastern adventure. Moreover, the slave ships from Volantis and whatever remains of the Iron Fleet would clearly be enough ships to move the newly freed slaves to Pentos (where a revolution is apparently coming) or the Braavos, which is all about freeing slaves. Or hell, they could be used to help man the Wall. In either case, the lack of sufficent ships for her people was her reason for even staying in the region to begin with, so I'm hoping these ships sail these people away from the destroyed Mereen.

[Pellaeon]

I see Dany fall for Victarion, he is this badass warrior type like Drogo, and he is a skilled navy commander, she needs ships and men who can board more ships for her. If Dany really develop a crush on Victarion the Dany hater will cheer, we all kow what happens to his women

[MrsManderly]

Isn't Victarion a bit like Rosencranz and Guildenstern in "Hamlet" - i.e. a more or less hapless plot vehicle to get Dany some ships?  (Not a perfect storyline parallel of course.) If I'm right this doesn't spell a very good ending for old Vic...

[Rhaegar's Ghost]

@stoneddragon i'm really down with your analysis, a lot of that stuff i hadn't thought of, especially the MMD prophecy fulfilled by Aegon. I always figured she was just speaking in prose to explain how unlikely dany is to have kids, not an actual prophecy. I do think you're right that she will take control of the khalasar in some fashion, whether its to defeat the khal or have drogon just scare the crap out of them into following her.

Euron hiding among the men too is an interesting point that i hadn't thought of before. we really don't know how the whole binding thing works, and it could very well be that the dragonbinder is bound to Euron, who is present. I'm also not sure how the ironborn will deal with the other ships guarding the bay, but something tells me they didn't just sail half way across the world not even to be involved in the battle for meereen.

[Serie]

Pellaeon, on 17 August 2012 - 02:37 AM, said:

I see Dany fall for Victarion, he is this badass warrior type like Drogo, and he is a skilled navy commander, she needs ships and men who can board more ships for her. If Dany really develop a crush on Victarion the Dany hater will cheer, we all kow what happens to his women

naaaaah! really? she's aware of his coming due to Quaithe's prophecy and she won't be... friendly, I suppose...

[Florina Stark]

Dany falling for Victarion? Fat chance. However, the idea that she could gain his fleet is in fact, a solid one. She might be able to conquer him somehow (Drogon) and take his ships. How the horn works, we dont really know yet. Does it call dragons or controls them? Either way, i see a conflict arising.

[Serie]

Florina Stark, on 17 August 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Dany falling for Victarion? Fat chance. However, the idea that she could gain his fleet is in fact, a solid one. She might be able to conquer him somehow (Drogon) and take his ships. How the horn works, we dont really know yet. Does it call dragons or controls them? Either way, i see a conflict arising.

a horn blows in the far east, a Wall falls apart in the far north I'm kiddin
I think the horn has to control dragons. What's the good if just to call them? besides isn't it written somewhere that the Valyrians used horns and sorcery to control their dragons? For Dany to use the fleet doesn't it mean that she should find a way to control the ironborn crew? where would she find the sailors to man the ships otherwise?

if I was her, I'd play Victarion for a fool, pretend to be in love and stuff and travel with him back quite dishonest, I know... btw. aurane's waters fleet of ex-lannisters ships? any idea where this is?

[SerGrahamando ofUttershill]

It seems so obvious that Vic's plan is going to fail and that he will die. Almost too obvious. When does the obvious ever happen in ASOIAF? I don't think Vic will die in Mereen, but I don't think he'll get a dragon either. Although I like the idea of Mereen being completely destroyed.

[Florina Stark]

I think Aurane is actually Team Tyrell so....>_> (He might be Team Dorne though...it is unclear as of yet.)

Dany COULD be all tricksy with Victarion but something tells me he wouldnt buy it. I think she would have to take the fleet by force.

[SerGrahamando ofUttershill]

Serie, on 17 August 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

For Dany to use the fleet doesn't it mean that she should find a way to control the ironborn crew? where would she find the sailors to man the ships otherwise?

Aren't most of the crew thralls, who are essentially just slaves? I'm sure they would happily serve the "Breaker of Chains"

[Serie]

SerGrahamando ofUttershill, on 17 August 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Aren't most of the crew thralls, who are essentially just slaves? I'm sure they would happily serve the "Breaker of Chains"

Ser, I bow before your greatness!

[Pellaeon]

Serie, on 17 August 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

if I was her, I'd play Victarion for a fool, pretend to be in love and stuff and travel with him back quite dishonest, I know... btw. aurane's waters fleet of ex-lannisters ships? any idea where this is?

I doubt Victarion would fall for that, he isn't Tyrion For me it seems he is done with women and just want to marry Dany to piss of Euronn

[Serie]

Pellaeon, on 17 August 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

I doubt Victarion would fall for that, he isn't Tyrion For me it seems he is done with women and just want to marry Dany to piss of Euronn

I think a broken heart is twice as dangerous to be fooled again than a solid one (a hopeless romantic this one ). He plays it tough but still he treats the slave Euron gave him almost... nicely. And he's not THAT clever. He believed Dumphair that he's gonna be the winner of the Kingsmoot!!! (yeah I know he had a good chance, but .... Dumphair???? really???)

[Pellaeon]

Serie, on 17 August 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

I think the horn has to control dragons. What's the good if just to call them? besides isn't it written somewhere that the Valyrians used horns and sorcery to control their dragons?

But if we assume the dragonriders are somehow chosen by fate, I doubt a "magical"  horn could change that, IMO the horn just reviel the dragonriders or let the dragons find them

Edited by Pellaeon, 17 August 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[Stoned Dragon]

I did a major post a while ago about the maritime situation in Westeros: http://asoiaf.wester...tegy-long-post/

It should explain what we know about Aurane Waters and the missing ships, as well as the other missing ships that are all seemingly hanging out around the Stepstones.

[Serie]

Stoned Dragon, on 17 August 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I did a major post a while ago about the maritime situation in Westeros: http://asoiaf.wester...tegy-long-post/

It should explain what we know about Aurane Waters and the missing ships, as well as the other missing ships that are all seemingly hanging out around the Stepstones.

great! thank you the things I've missed while I've been away...

[Pellaeon]

Serie, on 17 August 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think a broken heart is twice as dangerous to be fooled again than a solid one (a hopeless romantic this one ).

I'm not sure that "I beat my wife to death because she slept with my brother" count as brocken heart

Edited by Pellaeon, 18 August 2012 - 04:47 AM.

[Grimwolfe]

Dany doesn't know much of iron born culture or the Greyjoys. But who does, and has fought against them in the past, leading the vanguard and being the first over the walls? Barristan Selmy and Jorah Mormont.

I'm guessing some interesting conflicts will arise, and the unsullied may actually end up doing what they were literally made to do.