403 replies to this topic

[The Frosted King]

I've never understood this complaint.
Her chapters shed the most light on one of the most popular characters in the books, and she's got the most history of Winterfell packed into her chapters as well.
Her pov has seen the most of Westeros by far, and always offers the most mature and realistic prose in the novels.

Even the claims of her being depressing are unfounded in my eyes.
There is a tangible doom around her, but she always offers an optimistic alternative. Always.

To Catelyn, the best woman in the series, and a mother to contrast all others poorly.

[Florina Stark]

Well i think a lot of people really hate her for the things she said to Jon. Personally, while im not a fan of her actions there, its not the reason i have a mild beef with her. My beef is that she didnt quite think things through. While she had good intent, a lot of her actions are the ones that caused the war in the first place. She just HAD to kidnap Tyrion and hold him in the Eyrie. She just HAD to let Jaime go. Onward and so forth. It almost felt like she just didnt think about what she was doing at all. While i understand her brooding, it got to the point where i wanted to reach into the books and shake her and say "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!"

UnCat just....no.

[Lion of Judah]

I think it's just a matter of opinion honestly, personally I'm not a fan of her. Just found her actions too impulsive and her thought process kind of lacking. However I don't question her intentions as far as wanting to protect her children.

Edited by Black Lord, 17 August 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[grindylow]

Florina Stark, on 17 August 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Well i think a lot of people really hate her for the things she said to Jon. Personally, while im not a fan of her actions there, its not the reason i have a mild beef with her. My beef is that she didnt quite think things through. While she had good intent, a lot of her actions are the ones that caused the war in the first place. She just HAD to kidnap Tyrion and hold him in the Eyrie. She just HAD to let Jaime go. Onward and so forth. It almost felt like she just didnt think about what she was doing at all. While i understand her brooding, it got to the point where i wanted to reach into the books and shake her and say "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!"

UnCat just....no.

I just don't see letting Jaime go as being either a horribly bad move or having horribly bad results: Robb had made it clear that he didn't think his sisters were worth ransoming.  While releasing Jaime hasn't secured either Sansa's or Arya's safety or release yet, Jaime has sent Brienne out to find them and keep them safe, and I believe that if either of them fell into Lannister hands again, Jaime would do what he could to protect them.  Yes, this infuriated some of Robb's bannermen, but they were never going to get satisfaction from Robb even if Jaime remained a prisoner.

[Dany4eva]

I am not a fan of cat but I do enjoy reading her bits. My jaw was on the floor more so when she got killed than rob.

I am very very interested to see what uncat does and what her fate is. I am annoyed that she has a shredded face and can't really speak and looks like death. I woulda liked it if  she just looked a bit more alive and less scary for the sake of possible stark reunions

[Jem]

I don't hate Cat, not at all, but one thing that I did find interesting about my reactions to her over the course of her chapters is that I did start to distrust her judgement. And I assume that this was GRRM's intent, because he is such a clever writer. By the time we got the the RW and the whole of Cat's chapter was about her feeling uneasy, I dismissed as it  paranoia, simply because I didn't trust her any more. And it was for that reason that the RW came as such a shock to me. The whole time where Cat is describing what is happening at the Twins before and during the wedding, I was thinking 'yeah, yeah, woman, get over it'. So by the end of the chapter I was thinking 'whoops! looks like she was right (for once)'.

Edited by Jem, 17 August 2012 - 06:27 PM.

[Florina Stark]

Dolorous Jen, on 17 August 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I just don't see letting Jaime go as being either a horribly bad move or having horribly bad results: Robb had made it clear that he didn't think his sisters were worth ransoming.  While releasing Jaime hasn't secured either Sansa's or Arya's safety or release yet, Jaime has sent Brienne out to find them and keep them safe, and I believe that if either of them fell into Lannister hands again, Jaime would do what he could to protect them.  Yes, this infuriated some of Robb's bannermen, but they were never going to get satisfaction from Robb even if Jaime remained a prisoner.

While thats true, it was just another domino in the effect that ruined so much in the long run. Part of why some of Robb's bannermen defected, etc.

[The Frosted King]

Florina Stark, on 17 August 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Well i think a lot of people really hate her for the things she said to Jon. Personally, while im not a fan of her actions there, its not the reason i have a mild beef with her. My beef is that she didnt quite think things through. While she had good intent, a lot of her actions are the ones that caused the war in the first place. She just HAD to kidnap Tyrion and hold him in the Eyrie. She just HAD to let Jaime go. Onward and so forth. It almost felt like she just didnt think about what she was doing at all. While i understand her brooding, it got to the point where i wanted to reach into the books and shake her and say "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!"

UnCat just....no.

Tyrion saw her, after he noted her absence at Winterfell.
He saw her a days ride away from KL, where her husband is hand.
Tyrion knows his family.
He knows the Starks.
He sides with his family in everything.

Should she have let him go on to KL, where he'd likely ask his brother and sister if the lovely lady Stark had been to court?
They of course say no, she hadn't been.
He smartly asks them why then had he just seen her a days ride away from the capitol, with only her master at arms for escort and veritably trying to look inconspicous?
Cersei paranoid git that she is, goes wild with suspicions of secret acts and manuevering.

[Dany Jon or Bust]

Well I truly hate her.  But I also understand where her mind was when she made some of her decision... with her children's best interest in mind.

Jerk to Jon.  I support her because he's the symbol of Ned's apparent fling.

Prematurely arresting Tyrion Lannister.  Don't support her.  It's self explanitory, she should have waited untill more information was presented on the Bran assassination attempt.  This crazy act is one of the rising actions leading to the death of Jory, and eventually NED.

Offering Robbs hand to daughter of Walder Frey, without first asking Robb himself.  Don't support her.  Robb was the newly appointed KING IN THE NORTH, who was put into an incredibly difficult situation at the drop of a dime.  Robb never experienced the actually falling in love, so I feel like Cat was taking advantage of Robbs Youth and inexperience in order to get closer to her other children without Robbs best interest in mind.

Releasing the Kingslayer.  Don't support her. Once again, I realize she did it for her kids, but she put the entire North at risk, while also giving her son King Robb's reputation a MAJOR blow.

.  I pray UnCat can redeem the old Cat by allowing Brienne and Jaime both to live, although I'm sure she will kill them both and cause me to scratch my face until someone cuts my throat à la Red Wedding.

Edited by Maester of Philadelphia, 17 August 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Her thought process is frustrating to me because she seems far to critical of people in tough situations. Her POV is basically, all of these people are doing all of this wrong, and they are all silly. She's right/rightfully concerned about a lot of it, but its a weird kind of arrogance that annoys me. I don't think many people would call her arrogant though, because she rarely vocalizes her criticisms.

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 17 August 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[Lion of Judah]

Dolorous Jen, on 17 August 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

I just don't see letting Jaime go as being either a horribly bad move or having horribly bad results: Robb had made it clear that he didn't think his sisters were worth ransoming.  While releasing Jaime hasn't secured either Sansa's or Arya's safety or release yet, Jaime has sent Brienne out to find them and keep them safe, and I believe that if either of them fell into Lannister hands again, Jaime would do what he could to protect them.  Yes, this infuriated some of Robb's bannermen, but they were never going to get satisfaction from Robb even if Jaime remained a prisoner.

I don't think Robb made any of the sort clear, I think his beef was Cat taking the word of a known oath breaker. She should never have released Jamie, Why? He was the golden piece if the war turned bad for Robb he could use Jamie to get back his sisters and minimize his losses in case of defeat. You give him away for his word and what do you have? His word? He's an oath breaker.

[Stormcloak]

Well compared to the characters around her a lot of the time she's the least interesting and that's annoying. It worked fine in Game but in Clash and Storm I'd much rather have had a Robb or a Blackfish or a Greatjon point of view then just getting second hand updates on them through Cat on the sidelines.

I think most of the hate's because she does some really impulsive things with terrible consequences though. Taking Tyrion captive and freeing Jaime being the big ones but there's also arranging the Frey marriage, encouraging Ned to go south and calling for putting Roose Bolton in charge of the infantry.  And her hate for Jon's not exactly likeable, even if he is her husband's bastard he was just a kid.

Edited by richardpale, 17 August 2012 - 06:54 PM.

[The Frosted King]

Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, on 17 August 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Her thought process is frustrating to me because she seems far to critical of people in tough situations. Her POV is basically, all of these people are doing all of this wrong, and they are all silly. She's right/rightfully concerned about a lot of it, but its a weird kind of arrogance that annoys me. I don't think many people would call her arrogant though, because she rarely vocalizes her criticisms.

Could you give me any examples, because i'm blank.

[King Aemon I]

She is an idiot..  She offers a second cousin of Ned from Vale who never even saw the north instead of Jon as Robb's heir.. And when Robb speaks of making Jon legitimate, Cat says he and his children would be a danger for Robb and his sons, like it wasn't the same for Rickon.. Or Benjen for Ned..Rickon and Jon are brothers of Robb but idiot Cat only trusts her blood.. And in aGoT, when Ned decides he will go south and says he will leave Jon in Winterfell she says "he is your son not mine, I don't want him here" When I read this, I wanted to be there and kill Cat with my hands.. Who are you to send a boy away from a place that his ancestors lived for thousands of years?? You aren't a Stark of Winterfell lady Catelyn, and you kept thinking about Starks as "fruits of our marriage" not a member of a great house.. You carried a Stark name even though you don't have that blood (as far as we know) but the boy is a stark even though he doesn't carry the name... In here we say there is a good thing in everything, even in the worst disasters, and Cat's death was the good side of Red Wedding...

Edited by King Aemon I, 17 August 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The Vigilant Bannerman, on 17 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Could you give me any examples, because i'm blank.

I'd have to do a reread to come up with any quotations honestly.

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 17 August 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[David Selig]

It's pretty simple.  Many people don't appreciate more realistic writing and original characters and prefers characters who are "cool", "badass" or speaking in witty one-liners most of the time.

And as a woman who dared not to sit at home and leave everything to the men, she gets blamed for everything which goes wrong.

Edited by David Selig, 17 August 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[Lion of Judah]

David Selig, on 17 August 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

It's pretty simple.  Many people don't appreciate more realistic writing and original characters and prefers characters who are "cool", "badass" or speaking in witty one-liners most of the time.

And as a woman who dared not to sit at home and leave everything to the men, she gets blamed for everything which goes wrong.

ha ha...talk about giving naysayers a tongue lashing.

[grindylow]

Black Lord, on 17 August 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

I don't think Robb made any of the sort clear, I think his beef was Cat taking the word of a known oath breaker. She should never have released Jamie, Why? He was the golden piece if the war turned bad for Robb he could use Jamie to get back his sisters and minimize his losses in case of defeat. You give him away for his word and what do you have? His word? He's an oath breaker.

But it turns out that she was right.  I understand Robb's frustration and his bannermen's rage, but she was right about Jaime.  That logic tells you that she should have been wrong doesn't change the results, just like logic telling her that she should have been able to take Tyrion to the Vale and not find a sister who had become downright enthusiastic about Cocoa Puffs didn't make it so.

And he did make it clear to Cat - he only made offers he knew wouldn't be accepted.  I'm not blaming him or judging him about that at all - he was thinking as a general.  Sure, he wants his sisters back, but winning this war was the most important thing to him.  For Cat, it was flipped: absolutely, she wants Robb to succeed, and in almost every situation she supports him, she doesn't cross him, she advises him well, she explains truthfully where he messes up.  But nothing is more important to her than the safety of her children.

[The Frosted King]

King Aemon I, on 17 August 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

She is an idiot..  She offers a second cousin of Ned from Vale who never even saw the north instead of Jon as Robb's heir.. And when Robb speaks of making Jon legitimate, Cat says he and his children would be a danger for Robb and his sons, like it wasn't the same for Rickon.. Or Benjen for Ned..Rickon and Jon are brothers of Robb but idiot Cat only trusts her blood.. And in aGoT, when Ned decides he will go south and says he will leave Jon in Winterfell she says "he is your son not mine, I don't want him here" When I read this, I wanted to be there and kill Cat with my hands.. Who are you to send a boy away from a place that his ancestors lived for thousands of years?? You aren't a Stark of Winterfell lady Catelyn, and you kept thinking about Starks as "fruits of our marriage" not a member of a great house.. You carried a Stark name even though you don't have that blood (as far as we know) but the boy is a stark even though he doesn't carry the name... In here we say there is a good thing in everything, even in the worst disasters, and Cat's death was the good side of Red Wedding...

You may have read the books, but for all the nuance, context and placement present in the story, you're as blind as the man in your avatar.

[King Aemon I]

The Vigilant Bannerman, on 17 August 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

You may have read the books, but for all the nuance, context and placement present in the story, you're as blind as the man in your avatar.

waow, cool words.. can you say why is that too?