403 replies to this topic

[Barristan the Boss]

YES finally a thread where I can say this

I enjoyed reading Catelyn's chapters. They are well written, have interesting history tidbits, and give an insight into how selfless Cat really is. No, she's not perfect; in fact when she blindly trusted LF I threw my book at the wall. But on second thought, it's understandable - on the surface he was a childhood friend. In retrospect, I see her as the female version of Ned, just slightly more fluent in politics.

I don't understand why people blame her for Ned's death. If anything, Cersei and LF are to blame; they are the ones who should go down in flames for what they did (especially Petyr).

[Queen Cersei I]

LordofWinter, on 19 August 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

myself along with a plethora of other people on
this site would really appreciate it if you and the
rest of the Sansa/Cat brigade would please stop
speaking on behalf of all mothers (or women for that matter) as none of you are qualified to do
so. I understand that doing so gives you all the
feeling that you cannot be argued with, but
instead it mainly just shows how out of touch you are with the world and the diversity within the world

And I would appreciate it
if people
like you
would stop speaking for "a plethora of other people on this site"
as if you are qualified to do so.
And dismissing other poster’s arguments
based on your own prejudices.
Also
you might want to stop
typing your posts as though you are attempting some sort of post modernist forum experiment
in free verse.
It may be a problem with your computer
but if not
It comes off as incredibly pretentious.
And confusing.
I'm
just
saying.

[SerStinger]

Queen Cersei I, on 19 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

And I would appreciate it
if people
like you
would stop speaking for "a plethora of other people on this site"
as if you are qualified to do so.
And dismissing other poster’s arguments
based on your own prejudices.
Also
you might want to stop
typing your posts as though you are attempting some sort of post modernist forum experiment
in free verse.
It may be a problem with your computer
but if not
It comes off as incredibly pretentious.
And confusing.
I'm
just
saying.

I have NEVEr laughed so much in a forum. Must have woken my parents.

Edited by SerStinger, 19 August 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[Barristan the Boss]

Queen Cersei I, on 19 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

And I would appreciate it
if people
like you
would stop speaking for "a plethora of other people on this site"
as if you are qualified to do so.
And dismissing other poster’s arguments
based on your own prejudices.
Also
you might want to stop
typing your posts as though you are attempting some sort of post modernist forum experiment
in free verse.
It may be a problem with your computer
but if not
It comes off as incredibly pretentious.
And confusing.
I'm
just
saying.

HAHA I had to voice it out just to read the post. And then I had to read it again so I could understand it.

Edited by Sully's Moustache, 19 August 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

pat, on 19 August 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

For me a character is an empty suitcase till they fill it with actions and thoughts.
My theory can be backed up by text. Timelines in harrenhal can be established  by when they learn of outside events. Although a time line isnt necessary.

You assign Tywin a crime and actions even though he denies it. He clearly states in the converstion that the freys and boltons received a promise of protection.

Tyrion says walder would be too timid to pull it off.

A lot of real book evidence points to Roose. and i point out the Walders as leverage.

No evidence points to tywin no evidence points WF

If you posit that Tywin did it. then i say that Sansa did it

Tywin did not plan for the massacre of the RW but he planned to have Robb killed while the Stark and their bannermen where at the wedding. Remember when Tyrion and Tywin are talking about the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa? The question of how Sansa can be the heir if Robb is dead and Tywin says some wars are won with words and some with swords. In other words, he knew Robb would be dead soon. Later, when Tyrion learns about the RW, his father then tells him about his role. Devan Lannister has to marry a Frey as a prize to the Freys. Roose Bolton got made warden of the North and the fake Arya as his prize.

Tywin correctly denied that he did not plan for the large wholesale massacre that was the RW, he points out that he wanted Catelyn kept alive as a hostage.

Right now, you're pretty much making stuff up

Ser Lepus, on 19 August 2012 - 04:56 PM, said:

She should have known, however, that Jaime wouldn't (and in fact couldn't) release Sansa and Arya. They were Cersei's and Joffrey's captive, and later, when Tywin arrived, the latter's captive, not Jamie's. Jamie had no chance in hell to release Sansa or Arya, and she was freely given up the Stark's best bargaining chip.

I think at that point she wasn't in her right mind, but it's strange how she seems all rational and sensible in later chapters.

P.S.: Edited some errors.

She was not counting on Jaime, she was counting on Tyrion. This is a fact that even Jaime realizes in one of his own chapters. She realeases Jaime before the BBW happens, when Tyrion is still the Hand. She knew that he had promised to exchange Jaime for her daughters and she took a chance on that. She also knew that Stannis and his fleet would be attacking KL soon which would likely mean the death of the Lannisters and the loss of Jaime's value as a hostage. She made a judgment call based upon the information she had. Catelyn had no way to know at this time that there would be an alliance with the Tyrells or that Tyrion's time as Hand was limited. We as the readers had more information than she did and we didn't know that.

[lilenadheas]

Kittykatknits, on 19 August 2012 - 04:35 PM, said:

That's not quite right. Tywin was working with both Roose and the Freys on the Red Wedding. His plan was for Robb to die in a hunting accident or something similar along with some of his retainers. He was also expecting that many others would be kept as hostages, inculding Catelyn. Remember that line just before she is killed about how she was supposed to be left alive but the decision was made to slit her throat instead? Roose and the Freys worked together on the more extreme RW, a wholesale slaughter. Tywin just didn't know that part of it, big difference. But he was very engaged in the plot to kill Robb.


Oh, I didn't know he had said this, thanks for sharing. If you ever happen to come across that video again, I'd love to see it.

FOUND IT!!!! skip to the 6:00 mark. GRRM talks about difficulties reconciling plot to characters and the interviewer asks "who is the most unruly character?", to which he answers "Cat".

EDIT: @theguyfromthevale, No I actually just forgot to link it haha. my bad.

http://www.youtube.c...re=results_main

Edited by lilenadheas, 19 August 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[LordBloodraven]

Grrr, Catelyn Tully Stark is a saint, dammit. She's too intelligent for her own good.#Endofthethread

[theguyfromtheVale]

The link somehow got lost. Care to post it again (or better even, edit the post?)

[lilenadheas]

Queen Cersei I, on 19 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

And I would appreciate it
if people
like you
would stop speaking for "a plethora of other people on this site"
as if you are qualified to do so.
And dismissing other poster’s arguments
based on your own prejudices.
Also
you might want to stop
typing your posts as though you are attempting some sort of post modernist forum experiment
in free verse.
It may be a problem with your computer
but if not
It comes off as incredibly pretentious.
And confusing.
I'm
just
saying.

Fanfuckingtastic.

[Kittykatknits]

Queen Cersei I, on 19 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

And I would appreciate it
if people
like you
would stop speaking for "a plethora of other people on this site"
as if you are qualified to do so.
And dismissing other poster’s arguments
based on your own prejudices.
Also
you might want to stop
typing your posts as though you are attempting some sort of post modernist forum experiment
in free verse.
It may be a problem with your computer
but if not
It comes off as incredibly pretentious.
And confusing.
I'm
just
saying.

This was golden!! I always love your stuff...

lilenadheas, on 19 August 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

FOUND IT!!!! skip to the 6:00 mark. GRRM talks about difficulties reconciling plot to characters and the interviewer asks "who is the most unruly character?", to which he answers "Cat".

Thank you!! Going to listen to it now. His answer doesn't surprise me. She's one of the few characters that acts like a person, not a character.

ETA: The link is gone now for some reason..

Edited by Kittykatknits, 19 August 2012 - 05:55 PM.

[Garlan Marius]

LordofWinter, on 19 August 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

rest of the Sansa/Cat brigade would please stop

Protip:  Those two don't always overlap.  You've named my favorite and least favorite POV characters.

[theguyfromtheVale]

lilenadheas, on 19 August 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

FOUND IT!!!! skip to the 6:00 mark. GRRM talks about difficulties reconciling plot to characters and the interviewer asks "who is the most unruly character?", to which he answers "Cat".

EDIT: @theguyfromthevale, No I actually just forgot to link it haha. my bad.

http://www.youtube.c...re=results_main

Thank you so much!

The 11:30 mark is very interesting too, as GRRM talks about 'hated' characters he didn't envision as such, and basically says that 'there are characters that are basically good, but still threaten a fan favorite and are reviled among the fans' - I do think he had Cat in the back of his mind while saying that.

[Kittykatknits]

Garlan Marius, on 19 August 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Protip:  Those two don't always overlap.  You've named my favorite and least favorite POV characters.

I thought Bran was your favorite? Or am I thinking of some else?

[Garlan Marius]

Kittykatknits, on 19 August 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I thought Bran was your favorite? Or am I thinking of some else?

I know he's Ser Patrek's favorite, if that's who you're thinking of.

[Ser Lepus]

Kittykatknits, on 19 August 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

She was not counting on Jaime, she was counting on Tyrion. This is a fact that even Jaime realizes in one of his own chapters. She realeases Jaime before the BBW happens, when Tyrion is still the Hand. She knew that he had promised to exchange Jaime for her daughters and she took a chance on that. She also knew that Stannis and his fleet would be attacking KL soon which would likely mean the death of the Lannisters and the loss of Jaime's value as a hostage. She made a judgment call based upon the information she had. Catelyn had no way to know at this time that there would be an alliance with the Tyrells or that Tyrion's time as Hand was limited. We as the readers had more information than she did and we didn't know that.

I don't know if even Tyrion would have released Sansa; an exchange of captives is arranged between the opposing factions, and Robb didn't release Jamie and in fact tried to capture him again; technically speaking Jamie wasn't released by Robb, he escaped with Cat's help against Robb's will.

I don't know how that works in ASOIAF, but in our own world Sansa would never be released.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 19 August 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[lilenadheas]

theguyfromtheVale, on 19 August 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

Thank you so much!

The 11:30 mark is very interesting too, as GRRM talks about 'hated' characters he didn't envision as such, and basically says that 'there are characters that are basically good, but still threaten a fan favorite and are reviled among the fans' - I do think he had Cat in the back of his mind while saying that.

  Um, he's clearly talking about Gregor.
I definitely think he's talking about Cat among others at that part. He has previously stated his surprise at the amount of hate mail she (and Sansa) received.

you're welcome

Edited by lilenadheas, 19 August 2012 - 06:19 PM.

[LordBloodraven]

Ser Lepus, on 19 August 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

I don't know if even Tyrion would have released Sansa; an exchange of captives is arranged between the opposing factions, and Robb didn't release Jamie and in fact tried to capture him again; technically speaking Jamie wasn't released by Robb, he escaped with Cat's help against Robb's will.

I don't know how that works in ASOIAF, but in our own world Sansa would never be released.

Tyrion would have never realized Jaime, that's plain. Cat committed a folly there, she could only pray for Tyrion to release her daughters.

[Kittykatknits]

Garlan Marius, on 19 August 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

I know he's Ser Patrek's favorite, if that's who you're thinking of.

That must be it. I remember it coming up in another thread (which I will not name here) and must have gotten the two of you mixed up.

lilenadheas, on 19 August 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Um, he's clearly talking about Gregor. you're welcome

Listening to it now, thank you!

[The Frosted King]

KhaleesiDany, on 19 August 2012 - 05:16 PM, said:

Excuse me then, X-ray. SerStinger, you are right about hindsight bias. Does that make me like her? No. Cat thought Joff would be a good match for Sansa, which shows arranged marriage culture in Westeros but also that Cat is unwilling to get to know her daughter's future family before she agrees to a match between their houses. In the same breath she sends Ned down to be Hand when he doesn't want to, she is in no position to make this judgement call when Ned knows Robert and the Lannisters better. She is more stubborn than she is supportive. I think leaving her two youngest children really made me dislike her as they were too young to be without their mother. Freeing Jaime was just foolish, you can't trust that guy, and done at a time when Robb made a huge political breach by killing Karstark. She assumes Lysa told the truth in her letter (of course she did, that's her sister) but I thought it was strange that she burned it. I am frustrated by all of her decisions. They do show a lot about the culture and the world, though, who is honorable and not, and I think she's one of the most realistic characters in the book.

Cat realized that someone turning down the offer to sit your blood on the throne is highly suspicious, in any measure.
Cat didn't know Joff aside from him being crown prince. And she could get to know him in KL. And if they didn't agree with his character, they could end the betrothal.
Cat realized that the best way Ned could help his family, immediate and extended was by going to find out how how his brother in law, father figure who went to war on his behalf died. And perhaps prevent the same from happening to his best friend the king.
Catelyn wasn't stubborn, she was cognizant of the realities of the situation.
What would her presence back in Winterfell do? Highborn women didn't raise their children, truely.
They had input and voices, but septas and maesters and Master at arms taught them mostly.
Better she be with her son making war, giving him priceless advice about the lords of the south, which she as a southron would know, where he might not.

[butterbumps!]

If I may, what about the way Cat treats Brienne, another of society's cast-offs?   I ask this, because the way Cat treats Brienne is one of the acts that raises her incredibly in my esteem; the respect they mutually hold for each other is something of a testament to each other's worth- that Brienne trusts and respects a woman, who on the surface appears to be just like all the women who have laughed at her and treated her sub-humanly, and Cat sees the good and honesty in Brienne and believes that this woman has the strength to do a job more conventionally reserved for a man.  (The way people treat Brienne is something of a litmus test for me in the series, and I think Cat "passes" more than admirably).

I think a lot is being made about what amounts to Cat's "snobbery" in terms of Jon- it's not just the fact that she ignores him, but some of the discontent seems to stem from readers disliking the aristocratic implications of this.  I won't deny that she is very much a subscriber to the dominant political order, but I think she deserves credit for seeing individual worth.   I think the way she interacts with Brienne shows us that Cat isn't necessarily fussy about titles and convention as much as a person's qualities form her judgments.  As this pertains to Jon, I think this shows us that there are much deeper-seated issues with regard to this one particular boy than a systemic treatment of people.  Anyway, I got the sense that it's not just the ignoring of Jon, but the implicit "snobbery" that influences opinion (but I could be wrong about whether this is something that bothers people, or if it's the fact that she ignores him at all).

Edited by butterbumps!, 19 August 2012 - 06:25 PM.