20 replies to this topic

[SerStinger]

I know it's fun to fall in love with characters and defend them passionately, but ultimately, if we want our reading and interpretation to produce meaningful results we need to focus more on events and not on characters. It seems here in this site we have a tendency to blame things on characters, saying things like this:

• Cat caused the Red Wedding
  
• Sansa caused Ned's death
  
• Ned caused Ned's death
  
• Danny caused her problems
  
• Stannis caused this or that
  
• etc etc

But all of these, and anything of that nature, is false and simplistic. Let me tell you why. Because every situation which happens in ASOIAF is the result of a web of events, cultural conventions, and accidents, in which not a single character can be blamed for an outcome.

You must realize that it is the action of all characters which ends in an event. A sum. When you're blaming something on one character you are ignoring gazillions of factors. Gross oversimplification.

We need to change the language of blame to the language of analysis.

This mistake will not only lead to a lame understanding of the story, it undermines the worth and complexity of GRRM's creation.

Do you agree?

[Mr Motte]

Well, as much as I love him, I can say that Littlefinger caused a lot of shit. But of course that was his intention.

But as for those you mentioned, they all had their flaws which led to those events, but it wasn't solely 100% their fault.

Edited by Mr Motte, 19 August 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[Every]

SerStinger, on 19 August 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Do you agree?

Yes. Isn't that the entire point of the series?

[SerStinger]

Every, on 19 August 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

Yes. Isn't that the entire point of the series?

I think it is.

[pat]

If we didnt blame people it wouldnt be so real to so many.

[SerStinger]

pat, on 19 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

If we didnt blame people it wouldnt be so real to so many.

But... but... in the real world it is exactly the same way. Only in  bad fiction there are people to be entirely blamed for things.

[ElizaMartell]

People who believe Cat caused the Red Wedding are the most blatant example of mis-reading I have ever witnessed.

Edited by ElizaMartell, 19 August 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[LuisDantas]

SerStinger, on 19 August 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

But... but... in the real world it is exactly the same way. Only in  bad fiction there are people to be entirely blamed for things.

And in politics.

[SerStinger]

LuisDantas, on 19 August 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

And in politics.

That's because they want to win not to find the truth

[The GreatRon]

If only Baelor Hightower could have held it in....

[Kittykatknits]

SerStinger, on 19 August 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

Do you agree?

Oh, yes I agree. Statements like those you bring up tend to lead to rather divisive discussion rather than textual analysis. It also simplifies characters quite a bit. The challenge is that we are emotional creatures and this is a series that invites emotional reactions from many of us. I think it's normal though to look for someone to blame in a situation, especially with events as upsetting to many readers as the RW or the death of Ned. Threads based upon re-reads or with a focus on textual analysis are much more likely to lead to the type of discussions that you describe. Threads with title like "Why does every hate <insert name here>?" do not.

[SerStinger]

Kittykatknits, on 19 August 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Oh, yes I agree. Statements like those you bring up tend to lead to rather divisive discussion rather than textual analysis. It also simplifies characters quite a bit. The challenge is that we are emotional creatures and this is a series that invites emotional reactions from many of us. I think it's normal though to look for someone to blame in a situation, especially with events as upsetting to many readers as the RW or the death of Ned. Threads based upon re-reads or with a focus on textual analysis are much more likely to lead to the type of discussions that you describe. Threads with title like "Why does every hate <insert name here>?" do not.

Maybe I should frequent re-read part.... but I would feel guilty, cuz I don't have time for a reread just now

[Rheagar Prime]

true and thats what makes the story so good

[Kittykatknits]

SerStinger, on 19 August 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Maybe I should frequent re-read part.... but I would feel guilty, cuz I don't have time for a reread just now

No need to re-read the entire series. I've done character re-reads before, every chapter for Sansa, Jaime, Jon, or who ever. It's a really great way to focus on character development and focus on just what the character knows. Lot less work too.

[Brony Stark]

I agree that there isn't a single person responsible for events, but there are characters that were the main cause of the event.
For example: the Red Wedding

The Boltons, Freys, and Robb all had responsibility for the Red Wedding happening (there were many other people responsible that I havent mentioned, but those three are the main)

Freys/Boltons plotting it
Robb for marrying Jeyne Westerling

But between them the Freys were the main contributors

[Dma2282]

ElizaMartell, on 19 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

People who believe Cat caused the Red Wedding are the most blatant example of mis-reading I have ever witnessed.

Why is that? Her release of Jamie weakened Robb's position significantly, allowing Tywin to act with impunity. It also caused discord in the camp among those who had wished to see Jamie killed, potentially also tempting Bolton to cleave a large fraction of Robb's force for himself post-Red Wedding.

[TalalOfDorne]

Dma2282, on 26 March 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Why is that? Her release of Jamie weakened Robb's position significantly, allowing Tywin to act with impunity. It also caused discord in the camp among those who had wished to see Jamie killed, potentially also tempting Bolton to cleave a large fraction of Robb's force for himself post-Red Wedding.

Really? We are turing this in to a Catelyn-hate thread already? Tywin marked Jaime as a dead man and planned the RW before Catelyn could release him. Roose Bolton decided to betray the Starks when Theon took Winterfell.

[TalalOfDorne]

As for the OP. Yes I agree that nothing in these events is ever totally one persons fault.

[Kienn]

You have it backwards.

Just because other people contributed doesn't mitigate each person's blame.

If you and 9 other people witness a slow beating to death and no one calls the cops, it's 100% the fault of EACH person, not 10% for each of you.

Edited by Kienn, 27 March 2013 - 02:34 AM.

[Dma2282]

Kienn, on 27 March 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

You have it backwards.

Just because other people contributed doesn't mitigate each person's blame.

If you and 9 other people witness a slow beating to death and no one calls the cops, it's 100% the fault of EACH person, not 10% for each of you.

That's not a crime, by the by.