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The sphynx is the riddle, not the riddler!


FittleLinger

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He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.

As others have said, Aemon realizing that the sphinx is not the riddler means that his first thought was that the sphinx was just the riddler. It also means that the sphinx-riddler must have spoken of a real riddle and all this probably happened in a dream. So the questions are:

1) Who saw the dream?

2) What was happening in the dream when the sphinx appeared?

3) What was the riddle that the sphinx gave during this dream?

4) Is there somebody speaking through the sphinx?

1) It could be the first Daenerys` dream that caused the Targ ancestor to leave Valyria and spoke of a PtwP. But I think it is more likely that it is Egg`s dream since it goes together with "eggs that don't hatch"

2) No real proof but I think that the sphinx appears in a destroyed landscape with dead dragons all around and speaks of a war that is coming

3) The sphinx speaks of a prince that is going to fight this war and bring back the dragons and finishes by saying that the dragon will have 3 heads.

4) I think that the greenseers and the CotF are speaking through these dreams (we know they are capable of entering a dream and speaking through it to the sleeping person) so the sphinx is the latest and current greenseer, Bloodraven and after his death Bran.

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Sam - "The gates of the Citadel were flanked by a pair of towering green sphinxes with the bodies of lions, the wings of eagles, and the tails of serpants. One had a man's face, and one a woman's."

I think that during the voyage Aemon realizes the connection to the sphinx, due to the male and female dragon duality and the faces on the sphinxes at the Citadel. Throughout the story the sphinxes always seem to come in pairs. I think the riddle is the 3 parts of the sphinx. He already exclaimed that the thing he got wrong was that the prince that was promised could be a princess, so I think the fact that the sphinxes at the citadel have male and female faces made him realise the significance of the sphinx and then led him to think that the sphinxes themselves could be the answer to the riddle of the 3 heads of the dragon. Whether or not they represent individuals or Houses who knows?

The fact that sphinxes come in pair in fact does not prove that they are genderless but the opposite, that they do show gender! We only know that the word "dragon" has no gender in Valyrian, and that dragons are neither male nor female. We have nothing saying that the same happens to sphinxes.

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He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.

As others have said, Aemon realizing that the sphinx is not the riddler means that his first thought was that the sphinx was just the riddler. It also means that the sphinx-riddler must have spoken of a real riddle and all this probably happened in a dream. So the questions are:

1) Who saw the dream?

2) What was happening in the dream when the sphinx appeared?

3) What was the riddle that the sphinx gave during this dream?

4) Is there somebody speaking through the sphinx?

1) It could be the first Daenerys` dream that caused the Targ ancestor to leave Valyria and spoke of a PtwP. But I think it is more likely that it is Egg`s dream since it goes together with "eggs that don't hatch"

2) No real proof but I think that the sphinx appears in a destroyed landscape with dead dragons all around and speaks of a war that is coming

3) The sphinx speaks of a prince that is going to fight this war and bring back the dragons and finishes by saying that the dragon will have 3 heads.

4) I think that the greenseers and the CotF are speaking through these dreams (we know they are capable of entering a dream and speaking through it to the sleeping person) so the sphinx is the latest and current greenseer, Bloodraven and after his death Bran.

Where does all this info come from? Also the Dreamer was Daenys, not Daenerys...

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Well mostly it is wild speculation :cool4: but there are a few bits that aren't completely crackpot. Since no real sphinx has ever been witnessed it leaves the possibilities of either being a symbolic reference to something else real (and I don't think Aemon was in a state to make such symbolisms) or a part of a dream, a prophesy or a story. I went for the dream because the Targs seem to be capable of some kind of prophetic dreams involving dragons.

The second and third question are more difficult because they involve the PtwP story. In my mind the PtwP prophesy and the AA prophesy should be considered completely separately. The AA one is old and widely known and there are probably more than one versions of it. The PtwP one, though was relatively resent, it was made to the Targs and referred to them. So the one who knows this prophesy best of all is Aemon who is a learned maester and has the family's inside information.

He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.

The dreams, the glass candle and the eggs that Aemon speaks of are linked to the lack of dragons and their promised return in the PtwP prophesy. I think that it is reasonable that the next clue, the sphinx, is also from the same prophesy.

If that is correct (and I know that there are a lot of ifs gathered here) then the sphinx could be part of the prophesy and actually is the one who gives the prophesy in the form of a riddle.

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Well mostly it is wild speculation :cool4: but there are a few bits that aren't completely crackpot. Since no real sphinx has ever been witnessed it leaves the possibilities of either being a symbolic reference to something else real (and I don't think Aemon was in a state to make such symbolisms) or a part of a dream, a prophesy or a story. I went for the dream because the Targs seem to be capable of some kind of prophetic dreams involving dragons.

The second and third question are more difficult because they involve the PtwP story. In my mind the PtwP prophesy and the AA prophesy should be considered completely separately. The AA one is old and widely known and there are probably more than one versions of it. The PtwP one, though was relatively resent, it was made to the Targs and referred to them. So the one who knows this prophesy best of all is Aemon who is a learned maester and has the family's inside information.

He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant.

The dreams, the glass candle and the eggs that Aemon speaks of are linked to the lack of dragons and their promised return in the PtwP prophesy. I think that it is reasonable that the next clue, the sphinx, is also from the same prophesy.

If that is correct (and I know that there are a lot of ifs gathered here) then the sphinx could be part of the prophesy and actually is the one who gives the prophesy in the form of a riddle.

Sorry, but what is PtwP and AA?

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Ok, I'm making this up as I go, so bear with me if the thought-clarity isn't so hot.

A Sphinx as a riddler in (this world's) mythology has the purpose of being a guardian. So could Aemon be saying that the Sphinx -whoever he's referring to- is not actually a gaurdian? The riddle is just a lock that must be opened with the proper key(answer).

Could Aemon have some knowledge of Jon Snow's parentage? Jon thinks that he's meant to be the gaurdian (NW oath), but in reality he's the riddle. His true identity, when revealed, will allow him to open up and become his destiny, ie dragon rider.

Seeing it laid out, I actually think it's a bit far-fetched, since Aemon was talking about Dany mostly. But he was also thinking about the Targaryen line itself, so....I dunno. :dunno:

I still think there's something worthwhile in the "guardian" part of the idea.

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The fact that sphinxes come in pair in fact does not prove that they are genderless but the opposite, that they do show gender! We only know that the word "dragon" has no gender in Valyrian, and that dragons are neither male nor female. We have nothing saying that the same happens to sphinxes.

That is true. But how would you recognize a ladyboy sphinx? The only way to show the dual gender aspect is to have the sphinxes with a male and a female face. If you wanted to show the sphinx's gender you'd give it boobs if it was a female(Neverending story :leer:), and a cock if it was male. Both sphinxes at the Citadel are exactly alike apart from the face. There are no gender specific body parts. If the male sphinx was actually of a male gender it would've had a lions body with a lions mane, whereas the female sphinx would've had a lion's body without a mane.

I think the sphinx question is an interesting one. The sphinxes at the Citadel seem to be different to Valyrian Sphinxes. Like the Egyptian sphinx, of which is all lion with a human face, the Valyrian Sphinx is all dragon with a human face. Why the Citadel sphinx has 3 different parts to the body, I don't really know, it just fits nicely with the 3 heads of the dragon aspect of the riddle.

As to the riddle - having a quick look at various sources for the Egyptian and Greek Sphinx the riddle seems to be - "Which creature walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs in the evening?" The answer being Man—who crawls on all fours as a baby, then walks on two feet as an adult, and then walks with a cane in old age. There also seems to be a second riddle - "There are two sisters: one gives birth to the other and she, in turn, gives birth to the first. Who are the two sisters?" The answer is "day and night" When checking out the Greek version, the answer, day and night, is given in the feminine grammatical gender. Although I doubt this has any relevance to ASOIAF.

The main relevance I believe is that the sphinx is used to guard the city of Thebes(Greek), and therefore I believe that the sphinx at the Citadel is guarding something. What is it guarding though? A secret chamber? Knowledge?

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PtwP is the prince that was promised to the Targaryen. It is reffered by Aemon (and he thinks it is Dany), Reagar must have known it well. Whether the prophesy was done for the first time from the wood wicht or she was just reaffirming an older prophesy, is not clear to me. Was it the second part of the Daenys's "get out of Valyria because the Doom is coming" worning? It could follow the line of "I am saving your family because there is a higher purpose for you in the future" but we don't have any evidence for it. (If that is true then Marwan probably also has good knowledge of this prophesy and probably others might have heard parts of it). The only things we know for sure about the prophesy itself (and we learn it from Aemon before his sickness) is that it involves the waking of dragons and that the Dragon has 3 heads.

AA is Azor Ahai and there is a prophesy that when darkness falls he will return to save the world from it. It is a very old prophesy (5000 years old?) We don't know who made it and under what sercumstasnes but it was recorded in Assai its knowledge of existance is widespread and it has influenced the red priests a lot. And also there are more than one versions of it (Others speak of Lightbringer as a sword and others speak of dragons and it is not clear which is the older version)

Many in the book, among them Aemon and Melissandre believe the 2 prophesies reffer to the same person and I think have the tendency to merge them in their minds which makes it difficult to seperate what each one says exactly.

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That's true, though I'm still sure that the PtwP is AA.

The only real link is that Aemon, when speaking to Melisandre at The Wall about the Long Night, asks her where the PtwP is. In response Melisandre states that Stannis is AA. It seems that both Aemon and Melisandre believe that the PtwP and AA are the same person. They also have the same prophecy relating to their re-birth I believe?

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“Swords alone cannot hold this darkness back. Only the light of the Lord can do that. Make no mistake, good sers and valiant brothers, the war we’ve come to fight is no petty squabble over lands and honors. Ours is a war for life itself, and should we fail the world dies with us.”

... Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”

He had to get down on his knees to gather up the books he’d dropped. I should not have brought so many, he told himself as he brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar’s Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax’s Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate.

“Lord Snow,” Maester Aemon called, “I left a book for you in my chambers. The Jade Compendium. It was written by the Volantene adventurer Colloquo Votar, who traveled to the east and visited all the lands of the Jade Sea. There is a passage you may find of interest. I’ve told Clydas to mark it for you.”

Sam brings Aemon 2 books when he wants to confirm his suspicions that Stanis is not AA. The first is a book from the east and I think Aemon considers it a reliable source of the AA prophesy. The second book is from Westeros, it is more resent and it definitely speaks of Daneys and her dream and maybe other prophetic dreams that other Targaryen had. I think it is reasonable to assume that he asks for it to refresh the details of the PtwP prophesy.

Notice that when he speaks to Melissandre he mentions the war for the Dawn (from the AA story) and the PtwP (showing that he considers them fulfilled by the same person) and she answers with only Azor Ahai, the warrior of fire, the red comet and Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes (all linked more to AA than the PtwP). She does not speak of waking dragons with 3 heads. Why is that? Doesn't she know the PtwP story?

I think she has heard of this second prophesy but maybe she doesn't know the details of it. So she doesn't feel confident enough to discuss it with Aemon.

So to your question: They also have the same prophecy relating to their re-birth I believe?

He refers to 2 prophesies, she answers with one of them and they disagree with its interpretation. I think it’s really a mess and it leaves all possibilities open for now.

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:agree:

The only thing I would like to add is that maybe the original prophecy may have taken different "routes" after the Doom, the same prophecy branching off in two different theological directions. That being said though - If you have Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised as two independant heroes - who is the Last Hero?

"So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions."

The last hero seems to be a hero of Westeros, particularly the First Men. So now you have the Targaryen hero the PtwP, the Essos/Asshai hero Azor Ahai and the Westerosi version the Last Hero.

Three different heroes or three different interpretations of the same person?

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:agree:

The only thing I would like to add is that maybe the original prophecy may have taken different "routes" after the Doom, the same prophecy branching off in two different theological directions. That being said though - If you have Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised as two independant heroes - who is the Last Hero?

"So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions."

The last hero seems to be a hero of Westeros, particularly the First Men. So now you have the Targaryen hero the PtwP, the Essos/Asshai hero Azor Ahai and the Westerosi version the Last Hero.

Three different heroes or three different interpretations of the same person?

The dragon has 3 heads!

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:agree:

The only thing I would like to add is that maybe the original prophecy may have taken different "routes" after the Doom, the same prophecy branching off in two different theological directions. That being said though - If you have Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised as two independant heroes - who is the Last Hero?

"So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog and a dozen companions."

The last hero seems to be a hero of Westeros, particularly the First Men. So now you have the Targaryen hero the PtwP, the Essos/Asshai hero Azor Ahai and the Westerosi version the Last Hero.

Three different heroes or three different interpretations of the same person?

I'd say different interpretations of the same person. Aemon and even GRRM use them interchangeably, and that's enough for me. They all refer to a hero defeating the cold/eternal winter/long night, so that's where my money is put - different interpretations.

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I'd say different interpretations of the same person. Aemon and even GRRM use them interchangeably, and that's enough for me. They all refer to a hero defeating the cold/eternal winter/long night, so that's where my money is put - different interpretations.

Yes I'd have to agree - having 3 heroes would be rather confusing......a bit like Spider-man 3, and it's many villains! :)

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  • 2 years later...

I don't have AFFC nearby, but didn't Aemon tell Sam that in the midst of his other musings, which included "the dragon has three heads".

One thought I had was what makes up a sphinx. A quick look up of information basically reveals that at minimum it consists of a hybrid of two things, but can be more. Often the body of a lion with the head of a man. One traditional sphinx of note was the body of a lion, the head of a woman and the wings of a great bird.

Combining the ideas, could the sphinx and more specifically, what makes up the sphinx, be the answer to the riddle "the dragon has three heads" which most assume to be the answer to the question of who will be the dragon riders...

The head of a woman = Danaerys
Body of a lion = Tyrion
Wings = ?

Of course, there was no description of a third animal on the sphinx Tyrion saw. Anyway, just a thought.

there are two plausible people that could be wings i think

most people are saying bran as bloodraven told him that he would be fly which is why i think hes the strongest candidate

but they seem to forget jon. i mean he is/was a crow and if he comes back he could be a candidate + targaryen blood always helps

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  • 7 months later...
On 2012. szeptember 23. at 6:38 AM, A Book Would Be My Sigil said:

Ok, I'm making this up as I go, so bear with me if the thought-clarity isn't so hot.


 

A Sphinx as a riddler in (this world's) mythology has the purpose of being a guardian. So could Aemon be saying that the Sphinx -whoever he's referring to- is not actually a gaurdian? The riddle is just a lock that must be opened with the proper key(answer).


 

Could Aemon have some knowledge of Jon Snow's parentage? Jon thinks that he's meant to be the gaurdian (NW oath), but in reality he's the riddle. His true identity, when revealed, will allow him to open up and become his destiny, ie dragon rider.


 

Seeing it laid out, I actually think it's a bit far-fetched, since Aemon was talking about Dany mostly. But he was also thinking about the Targaryen line itself, so....I dunno. :dunno:


 

I still think there's something worthwhile in the "guardian" part of the idea.

Wow. Mind blown.
Also if a sphinx is of mixed races, than Jon can be considered a (the ultimate) sphinx if: R+L=J is correct.
- Valyrian - Targaryen - dragon blood.
- First man- Stark - wolf blood.
Ryanair blood- by Nymeria and the Martel's.

- Children of the forest blood  - If the children of the forest has anything to do for warging, like the Reeds-are-related-to-the CotF, so can the Starks.

- Other's blood - If the Starks are descendant of the others somehow (Nights King, etc)
 

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