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Who killed Joffrey?


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172 replies to this topic

#1 Incest_La_Vie

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:24 PM

Certainly the most accepted theory is that the Queen of Thorns placed one of the black amethysts from Sansa's hair net into Joffrey's chalice, poisoning him. There is also evidence to suggest that Littlefinger was involved in this plot. I was struck by a couple things from ASOS, however, and I'm interested to hear others opinions.

When Joffery was receiving gifts before his wedding (among others his golden chalice and Widow's Wail) Prince Oberyn gave him "a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion". After the gift-giving ceremony, Oberyn has a lengthy conversation with Tyrion and Sansa about Viserys poisoning Baelor and also about Baelor being deranged by venom from the many viper bites he received when rescuing the Dragonknight from a Dornish snakepit. Sansa initially suggests that Baelor was untouched "because he was so pure and holy"' after which Oberyn responds: "If you were a viper, my lady, would you want to bite a bloodless stick like Baelor the Blessed? I'd sooner save my fangs for someone juicier...". To me this hints at Oberyn saving his fangs for someone who is the opposite of Baelor, i.e. Joffrey. The scorpion brooch would have presumedly been used to fasten a cloak at Joffrey's throat - could it have somehow poisoned him when used? Perhaps a slow poison that took most of his wedding day to really do its work? It's never explicitly stated that Joffrey wore the brooch, but the symbolic nature of the gift combined with Oberyn's reputation and conversation certainly makes me wonder...

On a separate note, could Ilyn Payne's sword have been used to poison the pigeon pie? There is very little to suggest this, however I thought it curious that Margaery stopped Joffrey from cutting the pie with Widow's Wail so that another blade could be used. Also Sansa and Tyrion seem somewhat struck by the appearance of the blade, as if it had not been seen before.

Any thoughts from the other readers out there?

#2 Independent George

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

Also Sansa and Tyrion seem somewhat struck by the appearance of the blade, as if it had not been seen before.


Sansa was just noticing that Ser Ilyn was no longer wielding Ice; when she saw that, she realized that Widow's Wail had been forged from her family's heirloom.

#3 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

"The Tyrells" is probably as close as we'll ever get.

#4 John W

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

Interesting theory. There is already a good theory our there that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, so it is within the realm of possibility.

I guess the question is who has more motive and opportunity? The Tyrells, looking to protect Margeary from Joffrey or the Martells looking to avenge Elia's murder.

I'll have to re-read that portion of the novel again.

#5 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:31 PM

Interesting theory. There is already a good theory our there that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, so it is within the realm of possibility.

Oberyn poisoned Tywin?

I've never heard that theory. Isn't Tywin's death pretty clear-cut from the Tyrion chapter..?

#6 Lady Sansa Stark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:33 PM

Well, he is called the Red Viper after all, but I still believe it was the combination of the Queen of Thorns and Littlefinger. Sansa's hairnet, the amethyst who disappeared, leaving a sort of substance. Those amethysts really looked like the one Maester Cressen used to try to poison Melisandre but got himself killed instead when he drank from the cup. The Strangler.

And what about the quote from the Ghost of High Heart, in one of Arya's chapters:

“I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs...”

#7 Lady Sansa Stark

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:35 PM

Oberyn poisoned Tywin?

I've never heard that theory. Isn't Tywin's death pretty clear-cut from the Tyrion chapter..?

I came across the theory a while ago:

http://asoiaf.wester...poisoned-tywin/

It is really interesting to read. While Tyrion murdered him, Oberyn could well have poisoned him before that with the intention to kill him. Plenty of motivations. I was sold immediately. Also explains the stink of Tywin's corpse.

Edited by Lady Sansa Stark, 23 August 2012 - 12:37 PM.


#8 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:38 PM

I came across the theory a while ago:

http://asoiaf.wester...poisoned-tywin/

It is really interesting to read. While Tyrion murdered him, Oberyn could well have poisoned him before that with the intention to kill him. Plenty of motivations. I was sold immediately. Also explains the stink of Tywin's corpse.

Huh. I'd never really considered that.

Oberyn tries to kill Tywin by giving him a big dose of Ex-lax. /stillsick.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':stillsick:' />

#9 oakenhelm

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:41 PM

"The Tyrells" is probably as close as we'll ever get.

Maybe not. I certainly hope there is a reveal coming up. The death itself was very unsatisfying, imo and not really knowing what happened makes it worse.

#10 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:44 PM

Maybe not. I certainly hope there is a reveal coming up. The death itself was very unsatisfying, imo and not really knowing what happened makes it worse.

Well, we know what happened. Ghost of High Heart and Maester Cressen are both foreshadowers/setups for what happened at the Purple Wedding. We also know how Sansa received the hairnet. The only thing we don't know is who took the stone and put it in the cup. Most likely Oleanna or Garlan Tyrell, with Littlefinger's word that Tommen would be a better husband to Margaery, and Sansa/Tyrion as easily-fingered patsies.

#11 Saint Arya

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

I've always thought that it was the pie and not the wine that was poisoned, and Tyrion was the intended target. Garlan Tyrell complimented Tyrion and reprimanded Joffery, perhaps out of guilt for what was coming? And the QoT and Margery don't even notice Tyrion when they come over, further guilt?
Regardless of the method of delivery, the Tyrells with Littlefinger.

#12 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

I've always thought that it was the pie and not the wine that was poisoned, and Tyrion was the intended target. Garlan Tyrell complimented Tyrion and reprimanded Joffery, perhaps out of guilt for what was coming? And the QoT and Margery don't even notice Tyrion when they come over, further guilt?
Regardless of the method of delivery, the Tyrells with Littlefinger.

But where is the motive? Why would the Tyrells want to kill Tyrion? They have much more reason to want to remove the monster Joffrey to keep Margaery safe.

#13 Sweet-N-SourRobin

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:06 PM

GRRM has apparently said in interviews that we have enough clues in the text to figure out exactly who it is, for what it's worth.

My Gut Feeling: the poison moves from Sansa's hairnet to Olenna's hands to Garlan's hands to Margaery's hands, who actually poisons Joffrey herself.

#14 three-eyed monkey

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, I read some thread that put the scene together in a pretty forensic fashion from the text, where everyone was exactly in the lead up to Joff's death, etc, and it concluded that Garlan was the most-likely person to access Sansa's hair net and the royal chalice at the relevant time. Can't find it to link it up there now but it was pretty convincing.

#15 The Wolves

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:13 PM

Who killed Joffery?

Someone really fuckin awesome!!!

#16 Septon Meribald

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:16 PM

Who killed Joffrey? A lot of people. It was a team effort. It doesn't matter who actually placed the poison in the end, just that Littlefinger and the Tyrells were in on it. And outside of Mace all the Tyrells were at least complicit even if they didn't actively play a role.

#17 Saint Arya

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:18 PM

But where is the motive? Why would the Tyrells want to kill Tyrion? They have much more reason to want to remove the monster Joffrey to keep Margaery safe.



To free Sansa up to marry Willas, so the Tyrells would get the North. Remember QoT asks her to join her again to HG before dinner, and Sansa declines citing marital duties.
Also, LF tells Sansa he sang Jofferys praises while letting his men spread the real tales. Would QoT try to plot against Joff with someone singing about how awesome he is?

#18 Greywater Reed

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:21 PM

To free Sansa up to marry Willas, so the Tyrells would get the North. Remember QoT asks her to join her again to HG before dinner, and Sansa declines citing marital duties.
Also, LF tells Sansa he sang Jofferys praises while letting his men spread the real tales. Would QoT try to plot against Joff with someone singing about how awesome he is?

It's a smoke-screen. I don't believe they ever intended to have Sansa marry Willas. They wanted to use her to find out whether Joffrey was as bad as they assumed (he was worse), then use her as a pawn in the murder game (delivering the weapon and taking the fall).
They (the Tyrells) wouldn't *get* the North. It's already been well established that no-one can hold the North who isn't of the North.

#19 Saint Arya

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

It's a smoke-screen. I don't believe they ever intended to have Sansa marry Willas. They wanted to use her to find out whether Joffrey was as bad as they assumed (he was worse), then use her as a pawn in the murder game (delivering the weapon and taking the fall).
They (the Tyrells) wouldn't *get* the North. It's already been well established that no-one can hold the North who isn't of the North.


I agree, that the north can only be held by a Northerner but they might not think that. And Sansa gives up the goods on Joffery before they make a mention of Willas.

Ok I just re-read the scene and it makes since for Margery to have poisoned the wine herself.

#20 Cat of the Canal Girl

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

Ok check this:

LF had set Sansa up as his patsy for Joff's murder all along. He would sneak her out when he died. Combined with her other motives, this makes her look SUPER guilty.

But when it played out, Tyrion became the suspect. Bonus surprise for LF! Not only does he clear Tyrion out of the mix, he also ends up with a spare young highborn maiden who looks just like the woman he loved AND happens to be the likely heir to Winterfell.