Who killed Joffrey?

[chrisdaw]

They were certainly orchestrating an attempt, that it was carried through with and succesful doesn't necessarily follow.

[Ther Thapphireth]

Interesting theory. There is already a good theory our there that Oberyn poisoned Tywin, so it is within the realm of possibility.

I guess the question is who has more motive and opportunity? The Tyrells, looking to protect Margeary from Joffrey or the Martells looking to avenge Elia's murder.

I'll have to re-read that portion of the novel again.

In either case, it's interesting to see two families that hate each other having common cause here.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Even when her other knightly brother is the one that asked the evil ogre to marry her as a boon to satisfy her tender heart in the fist place?

I was just rereading the book, and Garlan is actually the one who asks Joffrey to marry Margaery. I had thought the same thing but I think the show substituting Loras in for Garlan is what confused us. So, if Garlan did poison Joffrey, he rescued his sister from himself.

[Vanilla Fire]

I thought it was pretty clear from the text that the Queen of Thorns was ultimately the one who poisoned the wine. LF masterminded the whole thing when he went to treat with the Tyrells and win their alliance. This alliance is what won the day at Blackwater (with no small help from Tyrion's wildfire). LF confesses the whole scheme to Sansa after bringing her to his holdfast on the Fingers. The use of the hairnet may have been necessary as the Tyrells may not have had access to the poison at King's Landing - poisons etc are kept by a Maester and they would not have access to Pycelle's stores. So LF imports the poison from Essos in the form of the hairnet.

This was an incredibly risky plan and therefore required not one but two scapegoats. My intuition is that the blatantly obvious poison-equipped hairnet was a fall-back plan, in case Tyrion managed to slip out of this situation, or Sansa failed to escape. Also, it was the only plan the Tyrells were aware of. They had no gain from Tyrion being accused. In their eyes LF set up Sansa, as the most likely of suspects and personally implicated them, to reduce the chance of a loose-tounged servant ratting him out. He may have even demanded compensation as, apparently, he has nothing to gain from this.

Managing to frame someone else than Sansa LF confuses not only his enemies, but his allies. Since the 'original' plan required Sansa to take the fall it seems pretty far-fetched for LF to be the one that abducts her subsequently. That is what he means by 'actions that seem not to make sense'. Therefore, everybody is in the dark as to how and where Sansa vanished, which was precisely his plan. The Tyrells had too much insight into LF's plans and not confusing a player as capable as QoT could have proven fatal in the long run.

[chrisdaw]

Martin may be playing a game here, the Tyrells/LF may be the first red herring, Oberyn another come next book, and the real culprit will be revealed near the end of the series.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Tyrion was sitting at the end of the dais. The official dinner plans didn't seem to include any instance where he would get anywhere near Joffery. No one could predict Joffery or Tyrion's reactions to the dwarf jousting, so there was no way a plotter could know that Joff would bring his wine chalice near Tyrion or Sansa. They couldn't predict that Cersei would instantly accuse Tyrion. If they wanted to frame Tyrion and/or Sansa, the plotters were going to have to be flexible, in order to provide a possible opportunity for T or S to put the poison in the cup.

If I'm devising the plan, I would come up with several possible ways to lure Joff and his chalice down to Tyrion's end of the dais, none of which in the end were used. If Garlan or his wife were in on the plot, seating them next to Tyrion would be a good way to provide for multiple opportunities. So who made the seating chart? Cersei, right? There's no way she helped poison Joff. So someone must have influenced her to put Garlan and wife next to Tyrion. I wonder who that was.

Having Sansa wear the hair net provided another alternative way to accuse T&S, in case no one caught on. Somebody (who was part of the plot) would have asked what the poison looked like, and "suddenly" remembered Sansa's hair net.

[Ygrain]

Tyrion was sitting at the end of the dais. The official dinner plans didn't seem to include any instance where he would get anywhere near Joffery. No one could predict Joffery or Tyrion's reactions to the dwarf jousting, so there was no way a plotter could know that Joff would bring his wine chalice near Tyrion or Sansa. They couldn't predict that Cersei would instantly accuse Tyrion. If they wanted to frame Tyrion and/or Sansa, the plotters were going to have to be flexible, in order to provide a possible opportunity for T or S to put the poison in the cup.

Quite the contrary, I believe that their reactions were both very predictable - in the sense that Joffrey will insult Tyrion and Tyrion will respond with one of his usual snarky comments. All it required after that was one or two remarks how his Majesty might cool down the dwarf, hint at the size of the chalice that would be fitting for that, and Joffrey's action was a safe bet. It is mentioned that he and Margaery were whispering something in each other's ear, so she was in a perfect position to plant the idea in his head.

As for the seating order: isn't it possible that Garlan or Leonette were used as poisoners because they were seated next to Tyrion, not vice versa? While influencing Cersei's decision might have been problematic, finding out the seating order and employing the particular Tyrell seated nearby would be way easier.

[Vanilla Fire]

If I'm devising the plan, I would come up with several possible ways to lure Joff and his chalice down to Tyrion's end of the dais, none of which in the end were used. If Garlan or his wife were in on the plot, seating them next to Tyrion would be a good way to provide for multiple opportunities. So who made the seating chart? Cersei, right? There's no way she helped poison Joff. So someone must have influenced her to put Garlan and wife next to Tyrion. I wonder who that was.

Having Sansa wear the hair net provided another alternative way to accuse T&S, in case no one caught on. Somebody (who was part of the plot) would have asked what the poison looked like, and "suddenly" remembered Sansa's hair net.

The seating chart was not as necessary as you might think. If we dwell into the realm of predictable behaviour - Cersei was bound to point fingers at Tyrion and no sane soul would believe Sansa on her own managed to acquire an exotic poison. Therefore any facts such as distance from the chalice would be dismissed. Group psychology would cause everybody to 'remember' Tyrion or Sansa suspiciously close to the chalice.

There did not have to be any exchange between Sansa's hairnet and Joffreys chalice. For all intents and purposes every single one of the Tyrells could have had a poison-crystal up their sleeve, disposed at the first convenience. QoT playing with Sansa's hairnet could have just been simple misdirection. If addressed - it would be Sansa's word against hers - not a hard competition.

And nobody had to be seated close to Joffrey. He was suspiciously drunk the entire evening and was probable to flail around the entire hall, leaving his chalice in random places. If worst came to worst and the poisoning plan failed - they could have just encouraged him to drink himself unconscious, leaving Joff unaware of his unconsumated marriage.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Quite the contrary, I believe that their reactions were both very predictable - in the sense that Joffrey will insult Tyrion and Tyrion will respond with one of his usual snarky comments. All it required after that was one or two remarks how his Majesty might cool down the dwarf, hint at the size of the chalice that would be fitting for that, and Joffrey's action was a safe bet. It is mentioned that he and Margaery were whispering something in each other's ear, so she was in a perfect position to plant the idea in his head.

Joff could have been primed with the insult, yes. But the wedding was the first time in his life Joff had ever got drunk. There's no way to predict if he's going to be angry, mellow, silly, or just sleepy. Joff's actions would have all but impossible to predict. Tyrion's predicted response would have depended on Joff's actions. There are far too many uncertainties to predict what would happen. And there is utterly no possibility anyone could have predicted that Joff would leave the chalice down at Tyrion's end of the dais while he cut the pie, giving Tyrion an opportunity to slip in some poison. Some plotters had to be around to nudge things in the right direction, like Margaery in your example. But Garlan was in a better place to help.

As for the seating order: isn't it possible that Garlan or Leonette were used as poisoners because they were seated next to Tyrion, not vice versa? While influencing Cersei's decision might have been problematic, finding out the seating order and employing the particular Tyrell seated nearby would be way easier.

What if the person seated next to Tyrion refused to take part? That would be a major plot security breach. No, you don't want to take that chance. You pick your plotters first, then get the seating changed. (Which wouldn't have been hard. All Garlan had to say was, "If no one wants to sit by the dwarf, I will.") But who said it to Cersie?

[Ygrain]

Joff could have been primed with the insult, yes. But the wedding was the first time in his life Joff had ever got drunk. There's no way to predict if he's going to be angry, mellow, silly, or just sleepy. Joff's actions would have all but impossible to predict. Tyrion's predicted response would have depended on Joff's actions. There are far too many uncertainties to predict what would happen. And there is utterly no possibility anyone could have predicted that Joff would leave the chalice down at Tyrion's end of the dais while he cut the pie, giving Tyrion an opportunity to slip in some poison. Some plotters had to be around to nudge things in the right direction, like Margaery in your example. But Garlan was in a better place to help.

Not the first time. If I recall correctly, when he went for that ride with Sansa which ended with that fight with Arya, he was also intoxicated, and aggressive, and I don't think this was the first, or the last, time when he acted under the influence of alcohol, so a pattern of his behaviour could be established. And, it wasn't even necessary for him to leave the chalice at Tyrion's place (though it was quite logical that he would not be taking it along as he went to cut the pie): it would be enough for the whole hall to see that Tyrion had access to the king's wine at one point.

What if the person seated next to Tyrion refused to take part? That would be a major plot security breach. No, you don't want to take that chance. You pick your plotters first, then get the seating changed. (Which wouldn't have been hard. All Garlan had to say was, "If no one wants to sit by the dwarf, I will.") But who said it to Cersie?

Refused? Like the Freys did? - Oh, wait, they didn't, and those who might have because they personally knew and admired Robb were not there. I doubt any Tyrell had such warm feelings towards Joff, whereas they definitely liked Margaery and feared Olenna. It's really a question how many and which ones were on it, given that Taena Merryweather gave false testimony to make sure the guilt is pinned on Tyrion.

BTW, was it really Garlan who sat next to Tyrion, not Leonette? Normally, the seating order would alternate lords and ladies but I couldn't conclude this from the description.

[StygianOni]

Here's a crackpot theory: what if Tywin was involved?

Remember after Blackwater during a council meeting Joffrey insults Tywin and leaves the room and Tywin says, "that boy is in need of a sharp lesson," which makes Tyrion shiver at the thought.

Could Tywin have, knowing Joffrey was born of incest, and was a maniac like Aerys, wanted him out of the way? The fact that Tyrion was implicated was just the cherry on top.

It seems to me that Tywin viewed himself as the true King, just as Cersei saw herself as the true Queen when she was the regent.

This is exactly what I thought. Then he could have better control over Tommen and could even drill him to become his puppet.

But still LF and QoT seems way more likely.

[Okonomiyaki3000]

No. This is very straight forward. It was QoT and Margaery. They got word of what an asshat Joff was from LF but they needed the marriage for political reasons. QoT was not about to let her granddaughter get stuck with that kind of guy so she offed him. It's very clear in the chapter where Sansa has dinner with the Tyrell women that they know all about Joff but are not too concerned about the situation.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

R'hllor killed Joff.

"Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches, "Say the name," Melisandre commanded. The leech was twisting in the king's grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. "The usurper," he said. "Joffrey Baratheon."

[cuendillar]

R'hllor killed Joff.

"Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches, "Say the name," Melisandre commanded. The leech was twisting in the king's grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. "The usurper," he said. "Joffrey Baratheon."

That scene was just Melisandre being theatrical. At most she had seen their eventual demises in her fires, but it might just have been a guess. It's pretty darn likely that kings going to war against each other will die before it's all over. There was nothing supernatural involved in this, not even a curse. Stannis actually saw through this, too. He commented the RW dryly with “Is the hand of R’hllor spotted and palsied?” , “This sounds more Walder Frey’s handiwork than any god’s.”

[R'hllor's Bastard]

That scene was just Melisandre being theatrical. At most she had seen their eventual demises in her fires, but it might just have been a guess. It's pretty darn likely that kings going to war against each other will die before it's all over. There was nothing supernatural involved in this, not even a curse. Stannis actually saw through this, too. He commented the RW dryly with “Is the hand of R’hllor spotted and palsied?” , “This sounds more Walder Frey’s handiwork than any god’s.”

Robb Stark and Balon Greyjoy scoffed at Rhllor.

Stannis will no longer scoff when Rhllor takes him as well.

[R'hllor's Bastard]

And like most other areas in his life, Stannis has earned zero trust for anyone to believe anything he says about his religious views or lack there of.

[Lion of Judah]

I always wondered if the Tyrells questioning of Sansa was them gauging if and when to kill Joffrey.

[Independent George]

I always wondered if the Tyrells questioning of Sansa was them gauging if and when to kill Joffrey.

I thought that was pretty explicitly the case.

[Lion of Judah]

I thought that was pretty explicitly the case.

Yeah it would be smart because it implies that they didn't completely trust LF and wanted first hand information from Sansa before they acted.

[Ludd]

Just reread the section

I think either Joffrey killed himself by accidentally putting the wrong hand into the pie OR Tywin put the poison in.

The Tyrells had nothing to gain by killing Joffrey - Margaery was queen. Let her have a son first - THEN dispose of Joffrey

Little finger (who put Joffrey up to it) no doubt wanted Sansa to believe she of poisoned Tyrion and to flee with Sir Dontos - possibly even to be accused. Easy enough for Little finger to comment to Lady Oyanna that the hairnet was crooked and not a good look to anger Joffrey. She straightens the net - or Lady O is part of the plot - hoping still to wed Sansa to Willas.

What does LF gain - firstly as married to Lyssa he can offer to take care of Sansa - exile in the Eyrie rather than beheading - there might be some sympathy for this. After a few years Lyssa tragically dies and Little finger weds Sansa

LF is Lord of the Vale, Riverlands and has the best claim on the North. Just as he still plans. He has revenged himself on the three houses who insulted him. Over time he weds/betroths his daughter/son to the son/daughter of Margaery and Joffrey and becomes Regent. LF has it all.

However what went wrong - Joffrey stuffed up OR someone did a switch. My guess is Tywin . Probably someone gave him a hint of what Joffrey intended. - He saw Joffrey at his worst - he would have seen Aerys in the boy. Another mad king - maybe he began to suspect that the twins are not his. Perhaps Varys or another has whispered in his ear about the incest.

Alternatively (or perhaps at the same time) Tywin was aware of the plot to poison SOMEONE - and to blame it on Oberyn. Perhaps the plot was supposed to be averted at the last moment. Tywin however suddenly realised what a disaster for the realm Joffrey was and perhaps that he was no grandson of HIS.

Note that Twin spent the time LOOKING at Joffrey