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Who killed Joffrey?


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#121 Sworn Shield

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:27 AM

I was just thinking about the Laws of Hospitality, if Garlan poisoned Joffrey he is breaking the Laws of Hospitality. However if Margery did the deed she wouldn't be breaking the guest right as now that she is married the Laws of Hospitality doesn't apply as it is her home.

#122 Apple Martini

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:28 AM

The WoIaF app seems to have confirmed what most people already figured out: The Tyrells did it.

#123 Sworn Shield

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:32 AM

The WoIaF app seems to have confirmed what most people already figured out: The Tyrells did it.


Well I think it was already pretty much a guarantee that the Tyrell's did it, but which one slipped the poison into the chalice is the question. As if any Tyrell other than Margery slipped the poison in they are breaking the laws of hospitality and would be cursed by the gods. That is if there are gods to curse them.

#124 direwolf_of_white_fangs

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:53 AM

Who killed Joffrey? One of the biggest mysteries yet to be clarified:

first to one of your questions: "On a separate note, could Ilyn Payne's sword have been used to poison the pigeon pie?

No, definitely not. A wild speculation. For the simple reason that the poisoned sword would contaminate other pie eaters and not only Joff.

So going back to your question: who killed Joff?

Very likely Joff's killing involved more than one person I say and it was carefully planned.

the suspects:

-tyrion
-Sansa
- The Tyrrels
- the dornishmen (red viper)
-Littlefinger
-Varys
-Pycelle

1) Sansa is the first one I would rule out. She didn't know what was going on around her.

2) Tyrion admitted to be the culprit and is one of top suspects but I have a feeling he didn't do it although the fact he did emptied the poisoned wine glass and got rid of the proof is suspicious. He was the main suspect for being sited close to Joff and for their previous quarrels. Other than that he seemed oblivious to the poisoning plan until the boy actually started choking, and he actually liked it. He was on the front seat, privileged spectator of Joff's death.

3) The tyrrels are also one of the top suspects. Sansa's hair net with the crystallized poison like an ametyst is so far the only explanation GRRM gave us. This is the only official murder plot revealed so far. Someone grabbed the poison from sansa's hairnet and dropped at the boy's chalice. But who and when ? MAergarrys mother during the dance? there are a few missing parts but this is officially how it happened that Joff was killed.

4) The Dornishmen? Maybe. I leave to your imagination who and how. Maybe you have the gift of foresight.

5) LF? I just say it's possible. It is strange that LF had all the sansa escape plan in place that night. Precisely at the right timing. Like always he didn't do it but maybe he masterminded the whole thing, the brains behind it. After all this is LF guys!!! never underestimate LF! I say if he didn't do it he knew it!

6) Varys ? I think Varys knew Joff would be killed although I don't think he did it nor planned it. But almost nothing happens in KL without him knowing.

7) The old man does have a lot of poisons in his chambers. Maybe he provided the poison.

Edited by direwolf_of_white_fangs, 11 December 2012 - 09:57 AM.


#125 Lord Paolo Stark

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

The Queen of Thorns took that stone from Sansa's tiara, one of them, and gave to someone to put in Joffrey's glass

But the mentor of the crime was LF, remember, he rescued Sansa, he order to eliminate Ser Dontos (ok, a witness of the whereabouts of Sansa, but also a witness who probably knew who murdered the king)

LF = Mentor
Queen of Thorns = Intermediate
Ser Dontos = Probably the one who put the poison in Joffrey's glass (he was a fool, and he was near the king doing his jokes along with moon boy and that reach fool I don't remember his name, he could manage to put the poison in without being noticed)
Kettleblack senior (Father of the Kettleblacks) = Transport

#126 Ingelheim

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 11:21 AM

The WoIaF app seems to have confirmed what most people already figured out: The Tyrells did it.


But that app uses information we already have, but that does not mean it's the right information. For example, imagine that in Winds Martin tells us that Jaime and Cersei are Aery's sons. The app would be wrong.

#127 tydides

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:37 AM

I just read the chapter. I definitely don't think the Red Viper did it, though he does look like he played a part in Tywin's death. I was immediately struck by the amount of Tyrells mentioned when Joffrey started to choke. Of course, their Lord Paramount's daughter is getting married to the king, but still. Margaery and QoT are the first to react, followed by Mace and Garlan. If Joff was indeed poisoned by Sansa's black amethysts, then Baelish must have been involved. Joffrey's death could have been part of the Tyrell's deal to side with the Lannisters, so they could marry Margaery to the easier to control Tommen. Petyr was responsible for getting the net to Sansa, and one of the Tyrells to slip him the poison, either Olenna or someone she gave an amethyst to. Another person to help was Osmund Kettleblack, who was in Littlefinger's pocket. The Tyrell's motives are easy enough to understand. They wanted to have Tommen to control. However, what were Littlefinger's incentive? And how could the Tyrells have done anything with Tywin still in the way? The only way the Tyrells could have gained more power would be to have Tywin either dead or fighting. Did the Tyrell's seek the Red Viper's help? Or did they rely on Baelish to start an uprising using Sansa in the Vale, and perhaps Harrenhall and the North? Were they expecting war to break out with the Dornishmen? All things to consider.

#128 stu1987

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 07:46 AM

However, what were Littlefinger's incentive?


I'm sure LF mentions to Sansa that he did this just to throw a spanner in the works/be unpredictable/be a tool. It certainly had other benefits for him too, including hugely increasing Cersei's (and the Lannisters') suspicions towards the Tyrells which would inevitably lead to conflict. I also like the idea that it was Margaery. She seems quite ambitious and it's clear that she doesn't care who is king, as long as she is the queen.

#129 Roadside Rose

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:21 PM

Some quotes from Clash of Kings regarding 'the Strangler'….



The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos... and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel.

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshaii gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man’s throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim’s face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.




He offers Melisandre the poisoned wine, she drinks it (it has no effect on her) and then asks him to finish the rest. As soon as he drinks it…..


Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat. His cough became a terrible thin whistle as he strained to suck in air. Iron fingers tightened round his neck. As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying her, denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god.




Tyrion seeing the purple wine residue
Sansa wearing 'strangler' in her hair net
Joffrey choking soon after he drank the wine

All point to -> the fact that his wine was poisoned with 'the Strangler'.

Who ever did it had to take 'the Strangler' from Sansa's hair net.
Then place it in Joffrey's chalice, or place it in the wine flagon from which wine was served to Joffrey in the end.

There are three people who touched Sansa's hair net that day 1> Shae 2> Sansa 3> Olenna Tyrell
There are two people near Tyrion when he served the wine at the end 1> Sansa 2> the serving girl with the flagon.

Even though it appears LittleFinger masterminded the whole operation. The person with the biggest motive among them, and the easiest access was Sansa herself. (If we don't completely believe her POV). But if she really had no idea what was on her head - then it could be anyone, even a faceless man. (Come to think of it, if one of those beads had fallen onto Sansa's plate...she'd be dead instead. So I have a feeling she knew what she was into.)

Edited by Minerva of Alamut, 10 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#130 Andrea Darling

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:42 PM

The evidence for this seems pretty cut and dried. It was Littlefinger, Ser Dontos, Olenna Redwyne and possibly Margaery Tyrell.

#131 unSonofStannis

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

It was the Tyrells more specifically the QOT, they didn't like that Joeffrey wasn't nice to women and feared for Margery so they offed him.

#132 Stark Wolf

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:21 PM

LF and Olenna negociated this prior to the Tyrell's agreeing to join thier forces with Tywin at the Blackwater. Both LF and Olenna intended the blame to fall to Tyrion and or Sansa. This didn't matter to LF because he had already planned to get Sansa out during the chaos of the moment.

Oberyn had other plans, to rid the world of the man who gave the orders for his sister and her children's death.

Tyrion gets blamed for Joff, which he didn't do. He thinks he killed his father, but his father was already dieing. Why did Oberyn offer to help Tyrion, a small slice of guilt maybe.

WINTER IS COMING !

#133 Downright Daario

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 06:25 PM

It was the Tyrells with perhaps some help from Littlefinger,I also like how someone above mentioned that Garlan was kind to Tyrion out of guilt, as Tyrion was their fall-man.

#134 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:05 AM

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s
another singer waiting.”
“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter
had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.”
“Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.”
I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be
my cupbearer.”
“I would be most honored.”
“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the
handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the
thing
. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees,
dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice onehanded,
drank deep, and set it on the table
. “You can get up now, Uncle.”
His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him
a hand
. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them.
“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”
The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of
the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and
thumpings coming from inside it.
Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair. All he needed now was for a dove to shit on him and his day would be complete. The wine had
soaked through his doublet and smallclothes, and he could feel the wetness against his skin. He ought to change, but no one was permitted to
leave the feast until the time came for the bedding ceremony. That was still a good twenty or thirty dishes off, he judged.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s
Wail was not meant for slicing pies.”
“True.” Joffrey lifted his voice. “Ser Ilyn, your sword!”
From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King’s Justice
stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he’d lost his tongue. He would have been a different
man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his
back.
Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He
knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in
the shape of a grinning skull.
Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?”
Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too
silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s
sword?”
I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.
Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves
burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from
the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around
merrily.
A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and
truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either.
“You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. “You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet.” He stood and offered her his hand.
“Come.”
But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?”
“I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?”
“No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.”
The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and
drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places.
Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”



So, the the wine was not poisened when Joffrey walked to cut the pie, but it was when he drank from it after the pie. The chalice is still filled with the same wine, so someone had to put the Strangler in there sometime between Joffrey going to cut the pie, and coming back for more wine. There are only two moments when this is possible:

1. When Tyrion had to get off his seat in order to fill the chalice, Joffrey puts the chalice done after he drank from it, and walks away. He goes all the way to the pie across the hall before Tyrion pulls himself back up onto his chair. This is a perfect time for someone to spike the wine.

2. When Tyrion leaves his seat with Sansa, before Joffrey cals him back - We don't know how long Tyrion and Sansa were walking away, but we know that Tyrion managed to get off his seat and walk away, as he needs to get back onto his seat after it.

Now, considering that Sansa and Tyrion are not the killers, who is? Who also sat near the chalice? Garlan.

Olenna took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet earlier, and needed to get it into the chalice. Considering that she sat near Leonette, who sat next to Garlan, who sat next to Tyrion and the chalice, she is too far away. What she could have done, is to pass the strangler to Garlan behind Leonette's back, for him to place it in the chalice. Garlan is in the right place, at the right time. Garlan also has the perfect motive: He knows that Joffrey is a twisted shit, and will likely abuse his sister.

So, the conspirecy includes:

Littlefinger - Provided Dontos with the Strangler.
Dontos - Gave the hairnet to Sansa.
(Sansa - Brought the poisen to the wedding)
Olenna - Took the poisen from Sansa's hairnet.
Margery - Took Joffrey away from the chalice, so it could be spiked without him noticing.
???Leonette - Got the poisen from Olenna and gave it to Garlan???
Garlan - Got the poisen from Olenna/Leonette and placed it in Joffrey's chalice.

Edited by Nyrhex, 11 May 2013 - 06:25 AM.


#135 Master Forel's Fro

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:10 AM

If Joffrey put the cup next to Tyrion n Sansa wasn't ser garlan sitting next to them n closest to the cup?

#136 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:19 AM

If Joffrey put the cup next to Tyrion n Sansa wasn't ser garlan sitting next to them n closest to the cup?


Yes. The chalice was placed infront of Tyrion. Sansa was sitting on one side, Garlan on the other. Other then Tyrion ans Sansa, Garlan is the closest to the chalice and the only one who could place it there before Tyrion gets back up into his seat the first time, or before Tyrion and Sansa turn back when Joffrey calls Tyrion to serve him again.


Food -> Chalice -> Food -> Food -> Food
Sansa -> Tyrion -> Garlan -> Leonette -> Olenna.


Edited by Nyrhex, 11 May 2013 - 06:21 AM.


#137 deady neddy

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:34 AM

Certainly the most accepted theory is that the Queen of Thorns placed one of the black amethysts from Sansa's hair net into Joffrey's chalice, poisoning him. There is also evidence to suggest that Littlefinger was involved in this plot. I was struck by a couple things from ASOS, however, and I'm interested to hear others opinions.

When Joffery was receiving gifts before his wedding (among others his golden chalice and Widow's Wail) Prince Oberyn gave him "a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion". After the gift-giving ceremony, Oberyn has a lengthy conversation with Tyrion and Sansa about Viserys poisoning Baelor and also about Baelor being deranged by venom from the many viper bites he received when rescuing the Dragonknight from a Dornish snakepit. Sansa initially suggests that Baelor was untouched "because he was so pure and holy"' after which Oberyn responds: "If you were a viper, my lady, would you want to bite a bloodless stick like Baelor the Blessed? I'd sooner save my fangs for someone juicier...". To me this hints at Oberyn saving his fangs for someone who is the opposite of Baelor, i.e. Joffrey. The scorpion brooch would have presumedly been used to fasten a cloak at Joffrey's throat - could it have somehow poisoned him when used? Perhaps a slow poison that took most of his wedding day to really do its work? It's never explicitly stated that Joffrey wore the brooch, but the symbolic nature of the gift combined with Oberyn's reputation and conversation certainly makes me wonder...

On a separate note, could Ilyn Payne's sword have been used to poison the pigeon pie? There is very little to suggest this, however I thought it curious that Margaery stopped Joffrey from cutting the pie with Widow's Wail so that another blade could be used. Also Sansa and Tyrion seem somewhat struck by the appearance of the blade, as if it had not been seen before.

Any thoughts from the other readers out there?

pretty good theorys but I think the Red Viper's brooch is correct. It may not have been the brooch ,but the way Dorne has been plotting it would seem that Doran Martell would send his brother to do something like that and I really doubt that the Red Viper will just disappear from the plot. Yes he did stir up Dorne but I think that we will find out that he had a hand in killing Joffrey because his character is the type to cause havoc even after he is gone.



#138 Ours if the Fury

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Posted 18 November 2013 - 04:43 AM

I think it was queen of thornes...

with little finger setting it up with her



#139 SuperTechmarine

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Posted 15 March 2014 - 01:25 PM


So, the the wine was not poisened when Joffrey walked to cut the pie, but it was when he drank from it after the pie. The chalice is still filled with the same wine, so someone had to put the Strangler in there sometime between Joffrey going to cut the pie, and coming back for more wine. There are only two moments when this is possible:

1. When Tyrion had to get off his seat in order to fill the chalice, Joffrey puts the chalice done after he drank from it, and walks away. He goes all the way to the pie across the hall before Tyrion pulls himself back up onto his chair. This is a perfect time for someone to spike the wine.

2. When Tyrion leaves his seat with Sansa, before Joffrey cals him back - We don't know how long Tyrion and Sansa were walking away, but we know that Tyrion managed to get off his seat and walk away, as he needs to get back onto his seat after it.

Now, considering that Sansa and Tyrion are not the killers, who is? Who also sat near the chalice? Garlan.

Olenna took the Strangler from Sansa's hairnet earlier, and needed to get it into the chalice. Considering that she sat near Leonette, who sat next to Garlan, who sat next to Tyrion and the chalice, she is too far away. What she could have done, is to pass the strangler to Garlan behind Leonette's back, for him to place it in the chalice. Garlan is in the right place, at the right time. Garlan also has the perfect motive: He knows that Joffrey is a twisted shit, and will likely abuse his sister.

So, the conspirecy includes:

Littlefinger - Provided Dontos with the Strangler.
Dontos - Gave the hairnet to Sansa.
(Sansa - Brought the poisen to the wedding)
Olenna - Took the poisen from Sansa's hairnet.
Margery - Took Joffrey away from the chalice, so it could be spiked without him noticing.
???Leonette - Got the poisen from Olenna and gave it to Garlan???
Garlan - Got the poisen from Olenna/Leonette and placed it in Joffrey's chalice.

 

+1

 

I agree with this guy.



#140 Nahlim

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:28 AM

One thing that keeps coming back to me is Sansa as the unreliable narrator. We don't really know how much of her POVs is actually true.

 

For me, there would be a lot of personal satisfaction in Sansa having an active (willing) part in the whole thing. But it's more likely the Tyrells.