Moondancer Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 http://m.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-on-who-killed-joffrey-20140414#ixzz2ytSi9CmF Martin: In the books and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Santa's hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 http://m.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-on-who-killed-joffrey-20140414#ixzz2ytSi9CmFMartin: In the books and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Santa's hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.Interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jairion Lannister Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 It seems clear that Olenna did it and LF was aware of the whole thing. What we don't know is if anyone else was involved, and if Margaery knew. Theories that Tywin knew and let it happen could have some legitimacy too, but with the whole hairnet thing it's fairly clear who actually did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywolf2375 Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 The ONLY mystery here is the hair net. Why was the poison sneaked in using a hairnet when it could've easily been brought inside someone's pocket? That's it, and it's not exactly an essential mystery. Everything else is incredibly straight forward. The show helped confirm that it was QoT with a very conspicuous shot of her directly after the poisoning. If necessary it then implicates Sansa. Who did she get it from? Dontos. Where is Dontos? Dead in the water. Both of them have significant reasons to have something against Joffrey. As far as what was shown in the TV show - that answers the question for the TV show. There were other players in the book (Garlan) that may have or even have been required to participate. (there's a question based on how tall QoT is if she could actually reach into a 3' tall chalice on top of the table easily given the descriptions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 If necessary it then implicates Sansa. Who did she get it from? Dontos. Where is Dontos? Dead in the water. Both of them have significant reasons to have something against Joffrey. As far as what was shown in the TV show - that answers the question for the TV show. There were other players in the book (Garlan) that may have or even have been required to participate. (there's a question based on how tall QoT is if she could actually reach into a 3' tall chalice on top of the table easily given the descriptions) Garlan totally did it. He was ever so nice to Tyrion and Sansa before, lulling them into safety by his ever so Gallant behaviour. But ask Randyll Tarly what Garlan the not so Gallant is doing in Brightwater Keep, and he'll certainly tell you a thing or two about Garlan! :p The QoT is totally too short, Garlan all the way!! :commie: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeStallion Posted April 15, 2014 Share Posted April 15, 2014 I think when LittleFinger went to broker with the Tyrells, he put forth the plan about marrying and then killing off Joffrey so that the Tyrells can marry Tommen and manipulate him a lot better than they would be able to with Joffrey. LF likes to create chaos and then rise from the ashes. Not only did he get rid of Joffrey, he pushed a domino that he knew would pit the Lannisters against the Tyrells (the same basic goal he used to create the initial chaos-starting fire when he manipulated Ned to challenge the Lannisters), and the icing on the cake was the blaming of Tyrion, essentially removing a threat away from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panserod Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 Could someone plz explain to me why would olenna do it?I mean, she took the chance to have her protege, the girl she did everything to, to be the queen of the iron throne!And to do that she spent a fortune funding the war and with the wedding!And can't see the reason for her to do that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadQueenAmberTargaryen Posted April 17, 2014 Share Posted April 17, 2014 My theory was that after sansa spoke to olenna and family about joffreys true nature, olenna pretended it was not of importance so that margaery would truly be shocked and make it believable but that she, littlefinger, and quite possibly even tywin were involved. Not when it came to ushering sansa out of it, I think if tywin knew anything it was that it would solve an impressive amount of problems for him -tyrion -joffrey -he most likely suspected oberyn might be accused -and sansa those were a lot of loose ends for tywin to quickly clear up for him to have had nothing to do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt123456 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 If we are going to assume that this is still speculative and that the simple theory that Olenna did it is not sufficient, I would surmise it was carried out by Shae and Tywin. We are never given a good reason for why Shae lies in the trial. Also, finding her with Tywin, when Tyrion kills Tywin and Shae never really made a lot of sense. Starting from the top... I don't think Olenna would have done it as taking the stone from the hairnet that Sansa was wearing was something that could have come back to haunt her. Assuming Sansa would have been caught (frankly, if Olenna was in on it, she probably would have assumed that Sansa getting caught would have been more likely than not), then I would not be surprised if torture would have been used to find out who gave her assistance. I think it would have come out that Olenna, adjusted the hair net, and there might have been witnesses to the same, which may have led to Olenna being in a bad position. Further, it seems that Olenna (and Margie) would have wanted the wedding completed and the marriage consummated and if possible a baby in the works before killing Joffrey. I don't think the theories that they wanted to delay the consummation (via killing Joffrey and waiting for Tommen to grow up) in order to be able to back out of the marriage, should the incest claims hold up makes a lot of sense. Ned and Stannis, tried using the incest claims already and they did not work out very well for either of them. Next, if you think about it, Tywin probably did not think that Joffrey would keep together the kingdom for long and accordingly he was ruthless enough to plot Joffrey's demise. Tywin and LF possibly worked together to create a situation where the blame would fall on Sansa, which could then lead back to Olenna. LF manipulated Olenna, by feigning to work with her to provide her with poison that was going to be delivered via the hair net. Olenna was supposed to give the poison to Margie for her to keep and use at a later date. The subterfuge was that Tywin then used Shae to arrange for the poisoning of Joffrey. Not sure the exact mechanism Shae used to get the poison in the cup... LF on the other hand had his own game going, where he was going to spirit Sansa out, without Tywin knowing, thereby derailing Tywin's plans to use Sansa to implicate Olenna. Instead Tyrion was caught and accused of the plot. Tywin had to let Tyrion fall because to otherwise interfere would risk giving away that he was involved in the plot to kill Joffrey (Tywin accomplishes his main goal of getting Tommen on the throne and Joffrey out. Tyrion was a difficult sacrifice that he had to make). Again LF gained here big, because he considered Tyrion a major threat (maybe due to his intelligence), and now Tyrion was possibly going to be killed. There is also the part that Tyrion was Sansa's husband. Tywin is now indebted to Shae and further wanted Shae to testify against Tyrion to make sure the blame does not come back to him. Shae in return got the privilege of being his special friend. It is possible Tywin would have had Shae killed once Tyrion was done with, but who knows. Now, it makes sense why Shae so turned against Tyrion and why she and Tywin had a very unexpected relationship. Going back to LF, he knows that Sansa and Olenna had nothing to do with Joffrey's killing (simple test with him, if he says it, it is a lie meant to manipulate), but uses his story for several ends. Very simply, this story makes him look the best. Otherwise he comes off as admitting that he created a whole manipulation which seriously exposed Sansa to risk for his own ends (i.e. getting rid of Tyrion and getting Sansa). Why GRRM does not come straight out and say this, is possibly because, this story is a good cause to pull out later on as a way to force Tyrion and LF into conflict with each other, or to cause the Tyrell's to get into conflict with the Lannisters. I think the later is the better explanation. He wants to save a good reason for why the Tyrell's will split up from the Lannisters, but he does not want you to know that it is going to happen. Further, this ties in well with leaving Margie a virgin. She will never consummate a relationship with Tommen (there is no good plot furtherance by her doing it with Tommen as opposed to Joffrey, if the Tyrell's and Lannisters are to remain friends), instead she will be a wild card in the next series of messes involving whatever Targaryen's, Starks, Baratheon's and whomever else is still around. One thing, I don't understand, is that in the TV series they make it pretty implicit that Olenna was involved. Not sure if it is a diversion tactic or if it reflects a change in the plot that GRRM made, which allows him to go back to the stupid explanation that Olenna did this with LF. Frankly, if that was what really happened, just give a short scene where she tells it straight out to Margie or has a POV where she thinks it. Why offer all the clues but skip the simple direct method of saying it outright, if it is so clearly the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Could someone plz explain to me why would olenna do it?I mean, she took the chance to have her protege, the girl she did everything to, to be the queen of the iron throne!And to do that she spent a fortune funding the war and with the wedding!And can't see the reason for her to do that! Lady O had a royal marriage in hand and an heir on the way, plus the means (Loras) to dispose of Joffrey later if he started beating up on Margy. So her motivation for killing Joffrey is weak at best. But her motivation for killing Tyrion is stronger. Control of the north, or at least preventing Sansa from providing an heir to Winterfell to the Lannisters, which would essentially give them control over half the kingdom with the alliance with the Freys. And if we reread the events leading up to the actual choking, it is very possible that the poison crystal was in the pie, not the wine. And if that is the case, than the true target of the assassination was Tyrion, not Joffrey. Just a pet theory of mine that I like to voice from time to time, although it tends to get other posters very upset. I'm still not sure why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benalapin Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Martin: In the books and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Santa's hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it. Interesting wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panserod Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 After this last chapter I'm more certain that tywin did it, it just solved every problem for him!If olenna did it, with little finger behind it all, it was by tywin order! He plotted this, I'm 100% certain of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sator Arepo Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Strange that no one mentions Tyrion's insistence in stating that he killed Joffrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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