From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Kittykatknits]

First, thank you so much for your kind words.

I don't think the importance of the Snow Castle scene can be overstated. It is the last chapter of the book and a scene that lingered for years much like the cliffhangers in DwD do now. Also the last chapter in Clash is Bran emerging from the crypts to the destruction of Winterfell and here in the last chapter of the next book we see Sansa rebuilding it. This is not a trivial juxtaposition.

As a general commentary on the notion of Sansa's "downward trajectory" I would again point to Snow Winterfell. It is a beautifully written, poetic, even religious scene. She's lost her wolf, lost her father and even watched his beheading, lost her home, and had been tempted with more poisoned false hopes than any other character amidst a sea of enemies and false friends. She thinks

<snip>

I happen to think it is the happiest and most hopeful scene in the entire series. But I thought Ordinary People had a happy ending too so who am I to judge...

Beautifully stated and I agree on all points. The point of the ghost of HH was to for Martin to ensure that we, as readers, pay attention. It's not just a girl playing in the snow for a few hours. For the most part I think he was successful as the snow castle scene makes a regular appearance on threads asking about reader's favorite series moments. I've also seen many posters state that this is the chapter that has caused them to either begin to reexamine Sansa as a character or when they started to like her. However, there will also be a few who hold to the impression given to them in GoT which I think does nothing but mean they will get less out of the series than they otherwise would.

As to your thoughts on Sansa's donward trajectory, perfectly stated. Sansa may be despairing but if you look at what she is actually doing (remember words are wind...), it's a very optimistic and hopeful scene. I am reminded of Bran's thoughts about WF in Clash, that it is merely broken like he is. Then, we have Sansa rebuilding it in Storm. Martin could not have tied those two scenes and those siblings together any better I think.

[jarl the climber]

There was a pretty important issue with Margaery, however: time. When Jaime was talking to Sybelle about Jeyne, he said that Jeyne would have to wait a designated period of time in order to remarry, because if she remarried immediately and happened to get pregnant immediately, people would always wonder whether the baby belonged to her new husband or if it was actually Robb's heir. I'm not sure what the time differential was between Renly's death and Margaery's marriage to Joffrey (the former happened about halfway into ACOK, the latter about halfway into ASOS), but even if too much time had logically passed by the time of the actual wedding, the marriage deal itself would have been agreed upon between Mace Tyrell and Tywin Lannister much sooner after Renly's death. Unlike Tommen, Joffrey was old enough to plausibly father an heir (13, the same age at which Tyrion lost his virginity to Tysha). If the Tyrells had presented Margaery as a non-virgin, then Tywin would logically have required them to hold off on the actual wedding until Margaery's exact pregnancy status could be ascertained beyond the shadow of a doubt, because if she got pregnant quickly, rumors might have started that her child was Renly's, not Joffrey's. The Tyrells wouldn't want to be forced to accept just a betrothal, because Mace wanted his daughter to be queen, and betrothals can be set aside much easier than actual marriages. (Remember how Cersei threw a fit when the Tyrells insisted on Margaery marrying Tommen immediately after Joffrey's death, rather than being content with a betrothal and holding the wedding later?) By presenting Margaery as a virgin, the Tyrells ensure the wedding takes place ASAP and no other House has time to swoop in and steal the Queenship by presenting the Lannisters with a better offer.

Unlike with Margaery, the timing issue is moot with Sansa, because by the time she was actually married off to Harry the Heir, far too much time would have passed since her flight from King's Landing for anyone to ever think she was capable of being pregnant with Tyrion's child.

Heres the thing. It was the small council, Cersei, Tyrion, Varys and LF that decided to make the offer. I do not think the matter of her virginity even came up. LF negotiated the pact as far as I know. Margey is then put forward by Garlan in the throne room scene and its stated that she has flowered but the marriage was never consumated, Joffrey of course agrees since the matter has all ready been settled anyway. The marriage goes through but of course Joff dies before the bedding.

In AFFC we start getting PoVs from Cersei and she is obsessed with Marges virginal staus? :laugh: Tanea was present at the bedding she reported that Renly had a woody when she left but she never saw the bed sheet. I guess Cersei thought she could overturn the wedding because margery lied? Or was it because being deflowered would somehow disqualify her in the first place?

Still it was a matter of life and death for the Lannisers to get the Tyrell marriage. If Joff has got to marry Marge even though Renly has boned her a few times I think they can live with that. As far as pregnancy goes just give her some moon tea. Still as far as PR goes i guess it better to present her as a virgin. Now she has put her self out there like that and she can't go back I suppose.

[Grail King]

hey guys! it's been a while since i posted anything, though i have been reading the discussions that have been talked about, as well as the latest one of sandor and the whole Mycah/Brotherhood Without Banners issue.

Not to get out of topic, but i found the following thing about Sansa on tumblr, but since it's related to the HBO adaptation, i put it under spoilers :)

I was over at the fysophieturner tumblr page, and this intresting podcast about Sansa & Cersei was posted: link below. For those of you who haven't heard it some of the things it talks about is why some people can symphatize with sansa more thanks to the show rather than just by reading her chapters. i found it interesting

http://www.mediafire...91dl68mx2g79l8n

hope you enjoy it!

One last thing: i'm really sorry for taking sooo long on puting up the Lothor Brune/Sansa analysis but it's coming! :)

Listening to this podcast, agree so far with what is said except at about 32 minutes in where it's stated WF doesn't mean as much to Sansa as the rest of her siblings, and she is the least Stark

[Elba the Intoner]

Regarding this debate of whether widows are desired as much as maids, there is also the example of Lysa. After Jon died, she had many men who were trying to court her and they were all wondering when she was going to pick someone else to marry (of course we see later that she was waiting for Petyr to get his higher title so that they could marry more legitimately). So, I think it depends on how high her position is, Lysa was Lady of the Vale, and as Tze mentions, whether there is a possibility that she could have been pregnant.

[Lyanna Stark]

For pure fun speculation, since Tournaments are considered ideal cover for political intrigue might we see one in the Vale? Might the Knight of the Laughing Tree foreshadow such a Tournament's events? LF is the Lord of Harrenhal and Sansa is his "daughter" and queen of love and beauty. I could see him arranging one for his Sansa/HtH plot. Would we have a mystery knight or maybe an unexpected king show up? LF as Lord of Harrenhal made me think of the possible Tournament connection, but mostly I'm curious about Sansa/Lyanna parallels anyone sees.

Not sure if this has already been covered, but Sansa has been to a Tournament already. Not the Harrenhal one to be sure, but like Lyanna who is theorised to have had a rather strange encounter at some point with the tournament's winner, so did Sansa have a out of the ordinary encounter with the tournament's winner.

In Lyanna's case the winner was of course Rhaegar Targaryen (this goes back the Knight of the Laughing Tree theories and that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown of Winter Roses) and in Sansa's case it was the Hound who won. Very different circumstances of course, but if we assume that Lyanna was the KotLT and that Rhaegar knew something about it, then he kept his word to Lyanna about not telling anyone, and Sansa kept her word to Sandor, too.

Interestingly in this scenario, the Harrenhal tournament is looked upon as an almost ideal tournament, while the Hand's Tourney was much smaller and thrown together quite hastily. Yet the Harrenhal tournament brought doom and destruction. Perhaps the surviving participants of the Hand's tournament can end up having a more positive influence?

The pattern of romance seems to suggest that fancying someone unattainable and pretty is doomed to fail and also lead to a more direct doom (Rhaegar the silver prince), while Sansa's "love" at the time of the tournament was the false Joffrey the golden prince. On the other hand, Joffrey did not compete himself, he had a "stand in" compete in the form of the Hound, and there you have a completely different looking person than both Rhaegar and Joffrey, but you can also argue the morally, he would like to be more Rhaegar than Joffrey (even if he was at the time serving Joffrey the Immoral).

(Sorry for the incoherency, just writing things down as I think about them.)

EDIT: It's perhaps interesting to note as well that Rhaegar as a tournament winner was very much the epitome of a romantic hero, giving Lyanna the crown of Love and Beauty while the Hound, to all effects and purposes, is the opposite of a romantic hero. At this point in time, at least. Even later on he is far from the ideal of the Silver prince Rhaegar and the Golden prince Joffrey. (They are both described as "my silver prince" and "her golden prince" respectively in the text.)

[ArabellaVidal]

Sorry if I'm butting in with something that's already been discussed. Have the implications of the presence of the self-proclaimed Mad Mouse at the Eyrie been discussed? How will he impact Sansa's story?

[Queen of Winter]

Sorry if I'm butting in with something that's already been discussed. Have the implications of the presence of the self-proclaimed Mad Mouse at the Eyrie been discussed? How will he impact Sansa's story?

I think we brought up Ser Shadrich during the Rereads, but we can always revisit what might happen with him. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Sorry if I'm butting in with something that's already been discussed. Have the implications of the presence of the self-proclaimed Mad Mouse at the Eyrie been discussed? How will he impact Sansa's story?

He's there for a reason, I'm sure, just don't know what. I'm sure he will have an impact on her storyline and it won't be as an ally. He's one of about 10,000 chekov guns waiting to go off.

[Lummel]

The point about guns in Chekhov's plays is that they are there to produce tension in the audience, they tend to be fired (if at all) either off stage or between acts...

Looking at the Vale post AFFC GRRM is spoilt for opportunities to turn the situation upside down. In fact there are so many that you can't help wonder if they will actually cancel one another out ;)

[Kittykatknits]

The point about guns in Chekhov's plays is that they are there to produce tension in the audience, they tend to be fired (if at all) either off stage or between acts...

Looking at the Vale post AFFC GRRM is spoilt for opportunities to turn the situation upside down. In fact there are so many that you can't help wonder if they will actually cancel one another out ;)

I was thinking of this definition:

"Chekhov's gun" is often used as an example of foreshadowing, with the sight of the gun preparing the audience for its eventual use. But the primary point of Chekhov's advice was to caution against including unnecessary elements in a story or its staging.

Doesn't need to occur off stage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

[Lykos]

Speaking of not including unnecessary elements have you discussed the following quote?

"Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain.

The youngest ... it might have been a Templeton, but . . . "

Storm, Chapter 45 Catelyn.

In one of the past heresy threads the role of women in passing on history and tradition in the North was discussed. Here is what Osha tells Bran in Game.

Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

Catelyn married into a Stark family with no Stark women, since Lyanna died. Ned seems to have prevented stories to be told that could endanger Jon´s secret or was it just too hurtful to be reminded of Lyanna?

Jon had never heard the story of Bael the Bard for example. There also might have been a rupture of passing down Stark secret´s in the male line in the time of the "She-Wolves", I´m really anxious to find out what Lyanna knew.

Somehow words were missing.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I was thinking of this definition:

"Chekhov's gun" is often used as an example of foreshadowing, with the sight of the gun preparing the audience for its eventual use. But the primary point of Chekhov's advice was to caution against including unnecessary elements in a story or its staging.

Doesn't need to occur off stage.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Chekhov's_gun

There is also what is called on TVTropes the Law of Conservation of Detail, which means that the details included in a book (or TV show, or movie, or whatever) must contribute to the actual plot in some way. "People expect things to have a reason," as the article states. (The TVTropes article is here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail

So the long and short of it is that there do seem to be quite a bit of Chekhov's Guns (a whole armory) set to go off. It will be a letdown if many of them prove dead ends or red herrings.

Back to Sansa, there is so much that foreshadows her triumph and I think will once and for all give the lie to everyone (in-universe and out) who think of her as a silly little girl or vacuous airhead. Despite the fact that GRRM seemed to have wanted her to provide a contrast to the rest of the Starks (but did she really provide so much of a contrast? Brandon and Jon had heads stuffed full of romantic dreams, too. I want to be a knight! said Brandon. Wearing black and guarding the Wall is romantic and awesome! said Jon. Why isn't Jon called out for those romantic fantasies? I guess it's OK for men to have romantic dreams, but women who do are silly and airheaded). More and more through the series that is turned on its head, and Sansa's ladylike ways, gentleness and courtesy are what give her her strength. TVTropes again with the idea that "Real Women Don't Wear Dresses" aka women who are traditionally feminine are weak and silly: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealWomenDontWearDresses?from=Main.RealWomenNeverWearDresses

[Lyanna Stark]

More and more through the series that is turned on its head, and Sansa's ladylike ways, gentleness and courtesy are what give her her strength. TVTropes again with the idea that "Real Women Don't Wear Dresses" aka women who are traditionally feminine are weak and silly: http://tvtropes.org/...everWearDresses

Pretty much. I always figured Sansa would end up as Silk hiding Steel: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SilkHidingSteel

[Lykos]

KittensRuleBeetsDrool, think of Kriemhild, she is discribed exactly like Sansa and after her husband is killed and her heirloom is stolen, making her dependant on her family that betrayed her, she becomes very powerfull without dressing as a man (though not gentle or romantic any more).

And it´s OK for men to have romantic dreams about adventures and fighting, think of Bran. It´s not OK to be gentle, sing songs or read too much other than works on how to gain power and even those are suspicious, think Sam, Hoster Blackwood and how Maesters are despised by many.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Speaking of Sansa's possible allies in the Vale and foreshadowing, the motto of House Royce of Runestone is "We Remember." Bronze Yohn's reactions at the Lords Declarant meeting - not only frowning at "Alayne," but insisting that Sweetrobin be given over to him for fostering, makes me wonder. Could it be that Sansa manages to get the word to him that yes, she is Sansa, and she has a feeling that Littlefinger is indeed a wicked stepfather to Sweetrobin, and could he help the future Lord of the Vale? SR is the trueborn son of Jon Arryn, sickly though he is (and I personally think he won't be sickly for long if he is properly brought up!). The line of patter that LF gives to Sansa about how the lords of the Vale will just adore the "Young Falcon" is, I think, just more bullshit. For all we know BY and the rest think he's a womanizing, partying type who will make a terrible ruler just like Big King Bob.

[brashcandy]

Interesting KRBD; I've always wondered about the runes on Bronze Yohn's armour myself.

[Ragnorak]

Speaking of not including unnecessary elements have you discussed the following quote?

Storm, Chapter 45 Catelyn.

In one of the past heresy threads the role of women in passing on history and tradition in the North was discussed. Here is what Osha tells Bran in Game.

Catelyn married into a Stark family with no Stark women, since Lyanna died. Ned seems to have prevented stories to be told that could endanger Jon´s secret or was it just too hurtful to be reminded of Lyanna?

Jon had never heard the story of Bael the Bard for example. There also might have been a rupture of passing down Stark secret´s in the male line in the time of the "She-Wolves", I´m really anxious to find out what Lyanna knew.

Somehow words were missing.

Small correction. Bael seems to be an exclusively North of the Wall story. The Halfhand even refers to it as Wildling music that he heard from Mance. But I like the post and don't think this negates the point. Bran, are you sure you never heard this story from your father? Of note it is Meera not Jojen telling the story. Even Jaime gets some Tywin background from his aunt that he never got from dad. Bran recalls his father telling stories but everyone at Winterfell thinks of Old Nan when it comes to stories.

[brashcandy]

As a general commentary on the notion of Sansa's "downward trajectory" I would again point to Snow Winterfell. It is a beautifully written, poetic, even religious scene. She's lost her wolf, lost her father and even watched his beheading, lost her home, and had been tempted with more poisoned false hopes than any other character amidst a sea of enemies and false friends. She thinks

but look at what she does. She rebuilds her home, makes snowballs to recapture and remember her innocent youth, and then transforms them into her adult responsibility and source of strength-- she rebuilds her home even though she has previously despaired of returning to it. She confronts her captor, resigns herself to confront her aunt, refuse her marriage and reclaim her life. Sansa has some dire and depressing thoughts throughout the series. If you look at her actions relative to those thoughts the picture is very different. IIRC she resolved not to speak or provoke Joffrey but then still defended Dontos. She's defending some drunken stranger on general principle risking the ire of the psycho who has her beaten and dragged her to the roof to gloat as he made her look at her dead father's head. There are words and there are actions-- the words are wind and the actions matter.

Ragnorak, I really loved and appreciated this post. Your insight into that snow castle scene has added to its significance for me, and I do agree that instead of focusing on Sansa's lowest points, we have to actually pay attention to what she does when she's there. She always manages to stage a comeback of sorts, and to rally her spirits to help others. We've seen this happen a lot of times: when she counsels the women after Cersei leaves, or finding the right song to sing to Sandor, and speaking up for Dontos. All of these actions have been of an instinctual, almost inspired nature, as we see when she rebuilds Winterfell.

AFFC is where we see her becoming more intertwined in the dynamics of the game, and she really has no choice but to play it if she wants to survive. It's kind of taken for granted that Sansa's role is to be a mini LF, someone who will specialise in courtly politics and act as the diplomatic Stark. However, as we look ahead to the next thread, perhaps it would be useful to consider other roles that Sansa might be able to function in more efficiently and definitely more comfortably than that of court insider. Is she meant for a higher, bigger, almost transcendental purpose within the story? How does she connect to the song of ice and fire outside of her Northern identity?

Just something for the thread to think about, and theorise on if anyone desires :)

[brashcandy]

And in case anyone's interested, here's a piece from the Huffingtonpost.com, where the writer talks about female archetypes in ASOIAF. Of course, they fail to mention that Martin deconstructs these archetypes from the very beginning, but anyways, I found the description of Sansa to pretty ridiculous:

] The Princess. Sansa Stark, sister to the Tomboy, is not too bright and is often punished for her vapid and romantic delusions. In case you had any doubt which, the Tomboy or the Princess, is more appealing to contemporary audiences, compare what happens to poor Sansa to her clear-minded, independent sister.

[Valkyrja]

What? Do they not realize that TERRIBLE things happen to BOTH sisters??? :frown5: