77 replies to this topic

[Oakkin]

I posted this in the AFFC section while i was still reading but now that i'm done i'd like to post it here, specially with all the Sansa being such a major player things i've been reading which I personally don't really buy.

Lady is the only direwolf to have died (aside from Greywind who died with Robb) while her human still lives. Do you think this has some sort of symbolic meaning towards Sansa? Early on it seemed pretty clear to me that Sansa was different than the rest of her siblings and when Lady died I figured it meant Sansa would move away from House Stark in a loyal sense (especially in the way she was at first very happy to be at King's Landing). I'm not so sure her loyalty to her family is in question anymore since she figures their all dead but I wonder why Martin would make her wolf die. The manner of the wolf dieing was interesting to as it was Arya's wolf who attacked Jeoffrey.

[Kittykatknits]

There are some other threads on this that explore the relationship on the Stark kids and their wolves which talk about Sansa in particular  quite a bit. I think the death of Lady symbolized the death of Sansa's idyllic view of what it is to be a Lady. If you look at her story arc, that's exactly what we see happening. Now, she's living the life of a bastard in the Vale. I don't think it means that Sansa will die, in fact, she is one of the very few that I'm confident will survive the series.

Edited by Kittykatknits, 27 August 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Winter's Ghost]

I think the death of Lady was the very beginning of Sansa's story line where she realizes that life is not a song and the world around her is not some fairytale. I don't think it means that she will die too, she might, she might not, but I don't think Lady's death connests to that.

Edited by Katie76842, 27 August 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[brashcandy]

Agreed with Kittykat, and to add, Lady's death also illustrates very early on to readers the essential injustice in this world. Arya's wolf was responsible, but Lady pays the cost; the innocent often pay for the guilty, and the deaths of Mycah and Lady help to reinforce this. Nothing in life is black and white.

[Ariane Martell]

I think she's loyal to the Starks. What's change is more something about her personality. She diverges even more from her brothers and sisters. I don't think she would betray them because that's not who Sansa is, but she's way more Tully than Stark. There's something about Starks and she hasn't anymore.

[Ariane Martell]

Kittykatknits, on 27 August 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

There are some other threads on this that explore the relationship on the Stark kids and their wolves which talk about Sansa in particular  quite a bit. I think the death of Lady symbolized the death of Sansa's idyllic view of what it is to be a Lady. If you look at her story arc, that's exactly what we see happening. Now, she's living the life of a bastard in the Vale. I don't think it means that Sansa will die, in fact, she is one of the very few that I'm confident will survive the series.

I like the symbolism on this. I never thought of it. I feel stupid.

[Kittykatknits]

brashcandy, on 27 August 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Agreed with Kittykat, and to add, Lady's death also illustrates very early on to readers the essential injustice in this world. Arya's wolf was responsible, but Lady pays the cost; the innocent often pay for the guilty, and the deaths of Mycah and Lady help to reinforce this. Nothing in life is black and white.

Great point. It goes back to the fact that Sansa's actions didn't really matter here, she couldn't save Lady at this point no matter what she said. Sometimes telling the truth or being right doesn't really matter.

Ariane Martell, on 27 August 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

I think she's loyal to the Starks. What's change is more something about her personality. She diverges even more from her brothers and sisters. I don't think she would betray them because that's not who Sansa is, but she's way more Tully than Stark. There's something about Starks and she hasn't anymore.

I'd disagree with that. Sansa is actually much more like Ned than she is Catelyn. Superficially, she looks like a Tully but that's about it. Her personality is much closer to her father.

[Oakkin]

Have their been any clue's at all about Sansa having warging abilities? Do you think she still may be able to or did Lady's death spell the end to that. All the other siblings we get a POV from can and there is even some evidence that Rickon can as Shaggydog was acting all crazy when he was upset.

[brashcandy]

Oakkin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Have their been any clue's at all about Sansa having warging abilities? Do you think she still may be able to or did Lady's death spell the end to that. All the other siblings we get a POV from can and there is even some evidence that Rickon can as Shaggydog was acting all crazy when he was upset.

All the Stark children are wargs, so Sansa's ability is still there, just unexplored due to Lady's death. There are theories that she could warg a dog or perhaps birds given her connection with Sandor in the novel ("get her a dog, she'll be happier for it"), along with being the "little bird" and longing to be free.

[Lady Lea]

Oakkin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Have their been any clue's at all about Sansa having warging abilities? Do you think she still may be able to or did Lady's death spell the end to that. All the other siblings we get a POV from can and there is even some evidence that Rickon can as Shaggydog was acting all crazy when he was upset.

Yes. GRRM said all Stark kids are wargs. When Lady was alive she didn't like Ser Illyn Payne, who frightened Sansa, and at the Eyre Sansa was playing with an old dog who tried to protect her from Marillion (the singer who tried to rape her). There are little clues... some people think her warg abilities may manifest more in her being an empath, but I think we will still see more developments to her abilities in the next books.

Sansa never had wolf dreams (because Lady is dead) but she could still warg other animals. Arya, Bran and Jon have developed their skills more than Sansa, Robb and (as far as we know) Rickon because they had temporary or pernament disabilities, but we do know that Robb and Rickon had very strong connections to their wolves, so Sansa only needs to find some other way to develop that.

Edited by Lady Lea, 27 August 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[Kittykatknits]

Oakkin, on 27 August 2012 - 01:15 PM, said:

Have their been any clue's at all about Sansa having warging abilities? Do you think she still may be able to or did Lady's death spell the end to that. All the other siblings we get a POV from can and there is even some evidence that Rickon can as Shaggydog was acting all crazy when he was upset.

You might like to read this thread.

http://asoiaf.wester...-she-is-a-warg/

My theory is that we are also seeing Sansa's warg skills as an Empath too.

[Fire Eater]

I agree with both Kittykatknits and brashcandy on this one.

I would also add that the direwolves are symbols of honor for their owners. Robb distances Grey Wind after he breaks his pact with the Freys and marries Jeyne, Jon Snow has Ghost go away some time after he breaks his vows with Ygritte and joins the wildlings and Sansa loses Lady after she lies in her testimony about what happened between Joffrey and Arya.


The Wicked Witch of the West threatened "I'll get you my pretty, and your little dog too." Cersei just goes and kills the dog; add that she is also from the Westerlands, and Cersei is pretty much the Wicked Witch of the West. After Cersei had Lady killed for something another dog did just for reasons of pride, it makes me wish someone would just drop a house (preferrably a castle) on her.

Edited by Fire Eater, 28 August 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[Pod The Impaler]

Lady was in part, her intuition and her own willful side. It is that bit of the North in her, the version of herself who is less fearful.

I forget most of what I had said in a post about this earlier, but we really only get brief views of her relationship with Lady. I think it is all in one chapter.

A couple of telling passages:

When Septa Mordane tells her that it is impolite to feed dogs at the table, Sansa defies her and says it's not a dog, but a direwolf (aide from the childish word-dodging, it is also symbolic of something greater and more noble than any dog). Septa Mordane then laments that when it comes to her direwolf, Sansa is as willful as Arya.

Later, when Sansa wants to see who has arrived at the royal encampment, she uses Lady fairly instinctively to Lady to go before her and part the crowd. This reflects on the fact that Sansa is highborn, and therefore she is pretty much a wolf among the sheep - they are supposed to back away from her. She does it instinctually; she doesn't say "excuse me" or rudely shove them aside, as her opresence alone makes it happen.

Of course, Lady famously raises her hackles at the sight of Ser Ilyn; whether this was just reflecting Sansa's fear or whether it was precognition is unknown. Could be reflecting the fear in Sansa's precognition.

Then again, we don't see Lady growl at Joffrey, so perhaps it's not about precognition at all. If the wolf could sense evil, it would get a mountain-sized radar ping off that creep.

I think though, if she had taken Lady along that day instead of going riding without her, she'd have come out the better for it.

[Pod The Impaler]

Fire Eater, on 27 August 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

I would also add that the direwolves are symbols of honor for their owners. Robb distances Grey Wind after he breaks his pact with the Freys and marries Jeyne, Jon Snow has Ghost go away some time after he breaks his vows with Ygritte and joins the wildlings and Sansa loses Lady after she lies in her testimony about what happened between Joffrey and Arya.

Oh definitely. In fact, Sansa leaves Lady behind when she goes riding with Joffrey (which starts the Mycah-Lady incident), and in fact is lying to Joffrey about liking it in order to spend time with him. Earlier in the day, she spoke her true feelings about it - she dislikes riding. She lies, Lady is left behind, her honour is compromised - but with it, her protection. Lady dies, and basically from then on, she spends her life under the "protection" of others.

Arya drove off Nymeria, it did not run away - a lie told for its survival. As Eddard told her, a lie that was not without some honour in it. Since then, Arya has walked a path of cunning rather than honour. She may yet be reunited with her Nymeria and her honour, and become Arya Stark again.

Bran has Summer and his honour is still intact.

Rickon ? Who even knows ?

Edited by Pod The Impaler, 27 August 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[brashcandy]

Pod The Impaler, on 27 August 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Oh definitely. In fact, Sansa leaves Lady behind when she goes riding with Joffrey (which starts the Mycah-Lady incident), and in fact is lying to Joffrey about liking it in order to spend time with him. Earlier in the day, she spoke her true feelings about it - she dislikes riding. She lies, Lady is left behind, her honour is compromised - but with it, her protection. Lady dies, and basically from then on, she spends her life under the "protection" of others.

Arya drove off Nymeria, it did not run away - a lie told for its survival. As Eddard told her, a lie that was not without some honour in it. Since then, Arya has walked a path of cunning rather than honour. She may yet be reunited with her Nymeria and her honour, and become Arya Stark again.

Bran has Summer and his honour is still intact.

Rickon ? Who even knows ?

All of the Stark children have/are at risk of having their honour compromised, wolf or no. Bran is currently warging Hodor, something that is definitely not honourable; Rickon has likely gone wild; Robb broke his promise to the Freys, Jon may have broken his vows to the NW etc etc.

[Lady Lea]

brashcandy, on 27 August 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

All of the Stark children have/are at risk of having their honour compromised, wolf or no. Bran is currently warging Hodor, something that is definitely not honourable; Rickon has likely gone wild; Robb broke his promise to the Freys, Jon may have broken his vows to the NW etc etc.

Don't forget Arya is a murderer.

[John W]

Kittykatknits, on 27 August 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

There are some other threads on this that explore the relationship on the Stark kids and their wolves which talk about Sansa in particular  quite a bit. I think the death of Lady symbolized the death of Sansa's idyllic view of what it is to be a Lady. If you look at her story arc, that's exactly what we see happening. Now, she's living the life of a bastard in the Vale. I don't think it means that Sansa will die, in fact, she is one of the very few that I'm confident will survive the series.

Interesting. I wonder if her current situation will give her a new appreciation of Jon Snow since she tended to treat him more like Catelyn as opposed to the other Stark kids who were closer to him.

I wonder if this will be revisited somehow?

[ElizaMartell]

John W, on 27 August 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Interesting. I wonder if her current situation will give her a new appreciation of Jon Snow since she tended to treat him more like Catelyn as opposed to the other Stark kids who were closer to him.

Bwuh? In what way did Sansa ever treat Jon like Catelyn did. The mind boggles.

[Lady Lea]

John W, on 27 August 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

Interesting. I wonder if her current situation will give her a new appreciation of Jon Snow since she tended to treat him more like Catelyn as opposed to the other Stark kids who were closer to him.

I wonder if this will be revisited somehow?

She never treated him like Catelyn. She played with him, gave him tips on how to woo girls, etc... she saw him as a half-brother (which he was) but so did Bran, Robb and even Arya ("Jon is not a Stark, he's not a wolf"). He just wasn't her favourite sibling. Catelyn on the other hand ignored him, wanted him gone, etc. But yes, I think they will definitely meet again, as will Arya and Sansa (GRRM willing).

[brashcandy]

Lady Lea, on 27 August 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

Don't forget Arya is a murderer.

Yup, and LF is trying to tempt Sansa into becoming one. They are all facing demons.