Heresy 22

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 22

The Heresy threads are very wide-ranging in scope, reflecting the breadth and complexity of GRRM’s story itself, but are usually concerned with exploring the Song of Ice and Fire rather than the Game of Thrones, and in particular with looking at the nature of Ice and those who serve it.

Participation in the threads doesn’t require that you subscribe to any or all of the core heresies, and many don’t since the nature of heresy is to challenge received wisdom, but its obviously helpful to know something of what we’re speaking about.

To quote Eira’s introduction to Heresy 20:

This thread is kind of sprawling at points, but we mostly circle around back to the issue of the Others/White Walkers and the Starks, their wolves, the Wall and the Watch, The Andals and First men, the Children of the Forest and the Old races, and the history and stories of Westeros. Oh also the maesters, the free folks, the seasons and magic in general and some other small matters, like Azor Ahai Reborn, the prophecies and what's up with these dragons. The latter three topics are not the main focus. We really mostly keep to how all these matters are connected, and keep a wide perspective.

There is an ongoing debate on what the Others are, why they want to come south and what motivates them. We know so little and we are eager to know, and in the long wait between books, why not try to piece together what we have learnt throughout the books? We are also currently discussing if the Starks are somehow connected historically to the forces of Ice, among other things.

The participants on this thread have looked at a lot of mythology and historical contexts that we know or believe that GRRM found some inspiration from, mostly just for fun, but also sometimes put flesh to our reasoning. The ASoIaF is undoubtedly not a carbon copy of any mythos or historical events in any way, but there are some interesting parallels that we have looked into.

Like the Sidhe… (me back again)

Above all, we also have a tradition of open-mindedness, conducting debates with good humour and respect for differing and dissenting opinions. This is a thread to be enjoyed.

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/71971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/72274-heresy-21/

:commie:

[Ciazio]

Whoo-hoo, 22 and growing!

Sorry if I repeat myself, but I'm bugged by this: in another thread I found a guy (Pellaeon his name) who suggested a correlation between Hodor and Hoder (Höðr), a Norse god http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B0r

Since you guys are experts in mythology, could you sense some sense (pun intended) in this link?

According to wikipedia, Hoder, tricked and guided by Loki, shot the mistletoe arrow which was to slay the otherwise invulnerable Baldr. I read somewhere in the forum that there might be a correlation between Baldr and Jaime Lannister...

[Black Crow]

And just for the record, lest we forget or others deny...

GRRM himself has said that the dates and timelines are screwed. That after a 1,000 years or so it all gets misty and Bran the Builder may never have existed.

We have seen, courtesy of HBO, that Craster is indeed giving up his sons to the Others, and therefore have no reason to doubt that when GRRM puts into the mouths of Craster's wives the statement that the White Walkers are Craster's sons, that this is true too.

GRRM has told us that the Others are not dead.

GRRM has told us that we are going to see what's up north in the Land of Always Winter and that we're going to learn more about the Others.

GRRM has admitted there is a link between the Children and the Others.

GRRM has also described them as looking like an icy version of the Sidhe

(couldn't resist that last one, cos if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...)

[Capon Breath]

We have seen, courtesy of HBO, that Craster is indeed giving up his sons to the Others, and therefore have no reason to doubt that when GRRM puts into the mouths of Craster's wives the statement that the White Walkers are Craster's sons, that this is true too.

Given that Craster is maybe 50? I'm guessing Crasters Sons cant be the only source of White walkers though? So it could possibly be a sacrifice thing and previous Wildlings have done it, but then Sacrifice to who / what? There must be source - presumably what Bran saw at the "Heart of Winter"?

[Timmay]

^{I am new to the heresy threads. I have tried to catch up by reading some of the summaries and all of thread 21 and now 22, the old nan summaries, etc….}

^{My sincere apologies if what I am about to share is a rehash. As I have not seen it.}

^{I would like to share a thought I have discussed with a co-worker /fellow series fan. It could be pertinent, or not. I almost always try and include quotes that can be construed as foreshadowing, when trying to support my conjecture. But this time, the topic is way too ambiguous for me to present significant source material, but due to the nature of the Heresy threads and the direct statements to the openness, I am choosing to share what I otherwise wouldn’t.}

^{The reason for sharing the thought is the questioning of the source of the invasion by the Others. It seems to be asked on occasion and was somewhere in the previous Heresy threads. We know the Cold comes with the Others or the Others come with the Cold and the long Summer has come to an end and a long winter follows a long summer. But after 1000’s of years, here come the Others. Why now?}

^{My thought/question is, did the Tragedy of Summerhall initiate the end of the long summer / the Others coming back?}

^{It is alluded to in the text the Tragedy was caused by the Targs trying to birth a dragon. I do not dispute that, I tend to think that is the most likely scenario.}

^{We know from Barriston that}

“All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.”

^{I assume the grief was the deaths of Egg, Dunk, Prince Duncan, and Jenny caused by the Fire which was caused by the Sorcery. Assuming the Sorcery was the Dragon hatching attempt. But what if there was a sort of Big Sorcery Boom at Summerhall that was the byproduct of the Dragon attempt and resulted in some sort of imbalance of magic power or an attraction that inadvertently brings the attention of the Others or frees them from their restraints? and here they come.}

^{Here are some random thoughts I have had regarding this:}

^{Jenny is grieved by the Ghost of High Heart whose description matches a CotF. Could Jenny be a CotF? The ghost’s daughter? (a half breed? She is then a Sidhe creature like the CotF / Others as speculated in Heresies. If so, Duncan married a Fae creature. Similar to the Nights King marrying an Other?}

“The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.”

^{Paying the bride price in corpses makes me think of the Bride Other of the Nights King and the fall out of that union. If the NK was Brandon Stark, he may have likely been a Prince of the King in the North, Duncan (marring Jenny) was also a prince. Could Prince Duncan have been the second coming of the Nights King?}

“he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day”.

^{Could this 2nd} coming of the Nights King have been the conflict that led to the destruction of Summerhall?Invoking some sort of Sorcery Boom? Why would Egg, Dunk, Duncan, and Jenny have been together? A Time of reckoning for the crazy son? Like the NK confrontation with his brother Stark and Joramun.

^{The back story of Rhaegar is also very important to the story, especially if R+L=J. And Summerhall and the Tragedy are tied to RT. He was born the day of the Fire. Is his destiny (or his offspring’s) tied to the conflict that initiates with him??? His melancholy is tied to Summerhall, he discovers the PtwP prophecy and first thinks its him. How intertwined would the plotlines be if tPtwP was from him and the tragedy on the day of his birth started the Others awakening.}

^{It seems to me the choice of Dunk and Egg for the short stories as subject matter is significant and they should culminate in the Tragedy of Summerhall making it a very important event to the total series. Maybe tying together the background for the initiation of the “awakening” of the Others.}

^{Or not. Thanks for reading.}

^{As Winter follows Summer….}

^{“night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief”}

^{Or maybe Summerhall is just the beginning.}

[Tyryan Lannister]

^{I am new to the heresy threads. I have tried to catch up by reading some of the summaries and all of thread 21 and now 22, the old nan summaries, etc….}

^{My sincere apologies if what I am about to share is a rehash. As I have not seen it.}

^{I would like to share a thought I have discussed with a co-worker /fellow series fan. It could be pertinent, or not. I almost always try and include quotes that can be construed as foreshadowing, when trying to support my conjecture. But this time, the topic is way too ambiguous for me to present significant source material, but due to the nature of the Heresy threads and the direct statements to the openness, I am choosing to share what I otherwise wouldn’t.}

^{The reason for sharing the thought is the questioning of the source of the invasion by the Others. It seems to be asked on occasion and was somewhere in the previous Heresy threads. We know the Cold comes with the Others or the Others come with the Cold and the long Summer has come to an end and a long winter follows a long summer. But after 1000’s of years, here come the Others. Why now?}

^{My thought/question is, did the Tragedy of Summerhall initiate the end of the long summer / the Others coming back?}

^{It is alluded to in the text the Tragedy was caused by the Targs trying to birth a dragon. I do not dispute that, I tend to think that is the most likely scenario.}

^{We know from Barriston that}

^{I assume the grief was the deaths of Egg, Dunk, Prince Duncan, and Jenny caused by the Fire which was caused by the Sorcery. Assuming the Sorcery was the Dragon hatching attempt. But what if there was a sort of Big Sorcery Boom at Summerhall that was the byproduct of the Dragon attempt and resulted in some sort of imbalance of magic power or an attraction that inadvertently brings the attention of the Others or frees them from their restraints? and here they come.}

^{Here are some random thoughts I have had regarding this:}

^{Jenny is grieved by the Ghost of High Heart whose description matches a CotF. Could Jenny be a CotF? The ghost’s daughter? (a half breed? She is then a Sidhe creature like the CotF / Others as speculated in Heresies. If so, Duncan married a Fae creature. Similar to the Nights King marrying an Other?}

^{Paying the bride price in corpses makes me think of the Bride Other of the Nights King and the fall out of that union. If the NK was Brandon Stark, he may have likely been a Prince of the King in the North, Duncan (marring Jenny) was also a prince. Could Prince Duncan have been the second coming of the Nights King?}

^{Could this 2nd} coming of the Nights King have been the conflict that led to the destruction of Summerhall?Invoking some sort of Sorcery Boom? Why would Egg, Dunk, Duncan, and Jenny have been together? A Time of reckoning for the crazy son? Like the NK confrontation with his brother Stark and Joramun.

^{The back story of Rhaegar is also very important to the story, especially if R+L=J. And Summerhall and the Tragedy are tied to RT. He was born the day of the Fire. Is his destiny (or his offspring’s) tied to the conflict that initiates with him??? His melancholy is tied to Summerhall, he discovers the PtwP prophecy and first thinks its him. How intertwined would the plotlines be if tPtwP was from him and the tragedy on the day of his birth started the Others awakening.}

^{It seems to me the choice of Dunk and Egg for the short stories as subject matter is significant and they should culminate in the Tragedy of Summerhall making it a very important event to the total series. Maybe tying together the background for the initiation of the “awakening” of the Others.}

^{Or not. Thanks for reading.}

^{As Winter follows Summer….}

^{“night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief”}

^{Or maybe Summerhall is just the beginning.}

Agree, agree, one hundred times agree.

And added bit of evidence for this (as I see it) is that, if we take Craster to be roughly 55 years old, then he would have been around 15 when Summerhall occurred, meaning that his first children would have been born around that time... and maybe also his beginning to give sacrifices to the Others?

[Black Crow]

Quote

GRRM has told us that the Others are not dead.

I see this come up a lot, but even after going through the older Heresy threads I can't figure out why this is significant.

The significance is that it explicitly contradicts Old Nan's description of them as "cold dead things" - and by extension casts a little doubt on some of the other things she said about them as well, hitherto taken as canon.

[mrazny]

Maybe Maester Luwin tells us all we need to know. Worship the seven and honour the old gods. ;)

This does feel like the strongest aspect and near perfect. I wonder if there is nuance to the process, where the heads of the noble houses are sort of a priest like position as well, where the "worship" falls more to the lords, and the common folk owing fealty to their lords takes also a religious tint. I'm not sure it's a missing key to anything, but it might be an aspect to the why the North is so different.

[7V3N]

But then why is so much weight lent to her Night's King story? Even assuming the Night's King really existed, there was supposedly a great amount of speculation about his origins.

Because the Night's King was a man. Why would it be so strange for men to know the history of men? Knowing exactly what the Others/White Walkers are may have never been discovered by men (or not most). They were enemies, and the men found out how to defeat/suppress them.

[SmokeyB]

The fact that Old Nan's stories may very well be wrong is a big reason why such a long look is taken at the Night's King, and part of why the theory that he was betrayed by a Stark in Winterfell developed. Add on that there seems to be no records of the 13th LC of the Night's Watch, or anything before that, and you have more potential evidence. The simple answer is that records are lost in time, but heretics are rarely satisfied with the simple answers.

That's my contribution for the next 4 months, I'll go back to lurking now...

[nenya~]

This does feel like the strongest aspect and near perfect. I wonder if there is nuance to the process, where the heads of the noble houses are sort of a priest like position as well, where the "worship" falls more to the lords, and the common folk owing fealty to their lords takes also a religious tint. I'm not sure it's a missing key to anything, but it might be an aspect to the why the North is so different.

The Thenns consider the Magnar more of a god than man, and they may be the closest to what the First Men culture was like before the Andals. Was the god aspect something that developed over time or an original aspect of their culture? Maybe greenseers were orginally Margnars, which is why they would be seen as gods. The Starks could have had a few greenseers in the past when they were kings. Then overtime they had less greenseers (plus Andal influence) and were seen more like regular kings/priests than as gods.

Also, don't the Children believe greenseers go into weirwoods when they die and "become part of that godhood" or something? Or is that the singers? I forget.

[Black Crow]

I'll go along with that, but its also why I think that honouring the old gods is less overt than the new. Its also part of the theory about wights; that the soul remains with the body and unless magically reawakened will gradually decay with it into the earth, becoming one with it and so becoming part of the natural cycle of renewal and rebirth.

[Black Crow]

The HBO series is not canonical however. GRRM has input, and the overall arc of the story will be the same, but there are some fairly significant differences between the two.

Tired last night so apologies for the late reply, but this is why I referred to others denying...

While there are indeed significant differences between the book and the show, this Craster business is indeed canonical. We're explicitly told in the books that Craster gives up his sons to the cold gods, the ones with the the bright blue eyes. We're also explicitly told that those same sons come back again.

Yet for years there are some who argue that it can't possibly be so - why it frightens them so much I don't know - so what is important about this episode is that it reinforces canon rather than deviates from it.

[Lannister Hamster]

What do the sons come back as? Wights (zombies) or White Walkers (Sidhe (for want of a better word)).

Also do you think that line from GOT about LC Mormont saying that they saw a WW from Eastwatch and didn't seem much concerned is a mistake from GRRM or something more important or something totally different?

[Black Crow]

Old one in heresy. Mormont knows about White Walkers (that is in fact the first use of the term in the book) and also about White Shadows in the woods (again first use), but while he's concerned and doesn't like it one little bit, he doesn't go running round in circles screaming that the Others are back after 8,000 years - and no given that it happens twice I really really don't think its a mistake by GRRM.

[Ciazio]

What do the sons come back as? Wights (zombies) or White Walkers (Sidhe (for want of a better word)).

Also do you think that line from GOT about LC Mormont saying that they saw a WW from Eastwatch and didn't seem much concerned is a mistake from GRRM or something more important or something totally different?

As figured out by Black Crow in a previous Heresy (19? 20?), what's new this winter are not the White Walkers themselves but the huge number of raised wights.

Analyzing the wildlings' and NW's reactions (especially Mormont's) seems like they are far more concerned about the wights than about the few White Walkers sighted.

Thus the conclusion that the WW are not an unexpected news.

[jon rr stark]

^{My thought/question is, did the Tragedy of Summerhall initiate the end of the long summer / the Others coming back?}

^.

It would seem co-incidence if the reawaking of dragons re-emergence of WW and wrights in numbers are link to the return of magic in the world as evidenced by the glass candles lighting again. What do we know of magic before this is not much. BR was a powerful sorcerer, but we dont know of any other magic at the time in westeros. He could either glamour or walk around as someone else as seen in D&G if I read the last story correctly.

But its a chicken and egg scenario.

The red lot and blood magic may be around in asshai and essos as no-one seems overly surprised with either of these when we see them.

Mance got together the wildlings possibly before the danys dragons so the WW could have been on the move already. Or it might have just been the red star falling which was seen as a signal.

I would say Summerhall if anything has shown the failure of magic in westeros. We know wards keep the Others at bay behind the wall. The may have seen Summerhall as evidence of weakened magic and hence a weakened wall and decided to prepare an invasion with the prospect of breaking the walls defences. However if they are magical creatures themselves they re-emergance in numbers might itself have returned magic to westeros.

I think we need to know why BR was so good at magic to find out.

[The Spoony Bard]

I’ve completed my reading of all 21+ Heresy threads in attempt to understand the basis for the various theories, but most particularly the Others=Sidhe theory. I focused on this theory because it’s the lynchpin that ties in most of the other theories (Stark uniqueness, Night’s King, nature of the Others, and more).

As an initial matter, it is important to understand that I am critiquing the belief that the Others=Sidhe. This belief is stated, for example, (“If we go along with the White Walkers as Sidhe proposition - and frankly there are just so many parallels with folklore about Faerie its very difficult not to”) (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/70554-heresy-17/page__st__320#entry3415367) I fully agree that the Sidhe form an inspiration, GRRM stated as much. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65234-heresy-10/page__st__40#entry3149885) I have trouble with the idea of a like for like comparison with a dash of ice, for the reasons I will discuss.

First, we know that GRRM does not do like for like historical comparisons. (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/On_Ethnicities/) Additionally, as he has stated, the CoTF are his own creation. (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2777/)

So, since his mere reference to the Sidhe does not mean that the Others are the Sidhe, the connection has to be made in the text of the stories. After the Others=Sidhe theory was first proposed (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/65234-heresy-10/page__st__40#entry3150216) evidence was collected to support it. The first main textual evidence is Craster sacrificing his children, although the book is intentionally vague as to what exactly happens to the children. The sacrifices alone are not sufficient to demonstrate that the Others=Sidhe, because there are plenty of examples of sacrifices to the gods in history. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice)

To make the like for like link, there has to be changelings, human babies that are taken by the faeries and replaced with supernatural babies. The primary evidence cited is the story of Bael the Bard. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66241-heresy-11/page__st__140#entry3200477) (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66241-heresy-11/page__st__140#entry3200623). However, there are significant flaws to that theory. There is nothing in the story to suggest that Bael was part-Other/Sidhe. While the imagery has parallels to Tam Lin, that alone does not make the connection. Instead, we know that the wildings are humans. (

) relevant question at 11:27. So without more, Bael is a human. Nothing more is provided. Additionally, the context of the story is quite important. Ygritte tells the story to emphasize that ultimately the Starks and the wildings are all human. (Clash 51). This, and his time with the wildlings, allows Jon to humanize the wildings, in comparison to Bowen Marsh. Furthermore, that’s how the characters of ASOIAF perceive the story; they do not perceive the story as evidence that the Starks are “cousins” to the Others.

The “Ramsay is a changeling” theory also falls flat on this account. None of the characters make the connection that Ramsay seems inhuman; whereas that connection is made with Craster.

Furthermore, the text itself makes clear that the Others are not a like for like comparison with the Sidhe. Old Nan states that the Others came with the all-consuming winter. (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61905-heresy-6/#entry2976780) Tormund says it was the fear of the cold that drove them to the Wall. However, the Sidhe do not travel with elemental destruction. Also, GRRM was skeptical of the idea that the Others have a culture. (http://www.vancouversun.com/entertainment/movie-guide/Game+Thrones+author+George+Martin+enthralled+series+magic/6344203/story.html) The Sidhe do, considering they had palaces and the like. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD )

In conclusion, the text simply does not support the idea that the Others=Sidhe, even in the margins. Undoubtedly, the Sidhe form an influence for the Others, just as the entire text is littered with references and influences, but the Others are the Others. I think it was important to provide a detailed analysis because this theory is not challenged in any depth and it forms the basis for many of the assumptions and theories that pop up in the Heresy threads. Anyway, hope my analysis was specific enough.

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

Regarding the whole others=sidhe thing, I've been thinking about how everyone in the books equates the others with winter and cold. What if the others are cold, personified. We know that the CotF practiced a lot of strange magic, what if they accidentally created beings out of pure cold and magic, and that's how the Others were created...thoughts?