Music Loving Chemist. Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Vic is not stupid... He's ignorant and bad in social situations. There is a difference =/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerillacropolis Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I don't agree with everyone's characterization that Victarion is evil. He's ironborn, through and through. If he showed mercy, he'd be labelled a coward and challenged until someone killed him. Unfortunately, Pyke has not had a feminist revolution, so not keeping concubines and raping women is a bit too forward thinking for him. Again, if he didn't keep salt wives, he'd not be a man.I'm not condoning this behavior necessarily, but it was a product of his time and society. Would you label George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as evil because they had slaves? If they had slaves today, they'd be evil. When they had slaves then, they were good farmers.It's the same with Victarion. In these times, he'd be committing war crimes. Back then, he was just an ironborn, and a damn honorable one compared to his peers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Vic is not stupid... He's ignorant and bad in social situations. There is a difference =/GRRM has said that he is, literally, "dump as a stump": http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Seattle_Town_Hall_QA/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 <mod>Rape isn't funny and rape advocacy, including wanting someone to become a salt wife, is not allowed on these boards. Discuss with this in mind.</mod> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acedrian Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 the thing that proved to me he is a nutcase was when he burnt those virgins alive and he noted how he thought right at the end the screams turned to cries of joy as they were taken into the sea paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerillacropolis Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 the thing that proved to me he is a nutcase was when he burnt those virgins alive and he noted how he thought right at the end the screams turned to cries of joy as they were taken into the sea paradise.Okay, that is pretty fucking evil. But R'Hllor and the Drowned God must be appeased!<mod>Rape isn't funny and rape advocacy, including wanting someone to become a salt wife, is not allowed on these boards. Discuss with this in mind.</mod>I wasn't advocating rape nor making a rape joke, I was saying rape in ancient times needs to be contextualized differently than rape today (you know, now that women aren't basically slaves any more). I even said I didn't condone it, just that it needed to be viewed through the lens of Westerosi society. So, still evil...but evil in a different way? Like slavery, or how we're slowly destroying the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordbrother Oakeshott Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 He may not be the brightest fellow, sure, but by this point in the books, he and Ser Barristan Selmy are the only POV characters left capable of using a weapon. Every other warrior in the books has either been crippled or been killed, some are still children. So for the pure possibility of some action, I love this dumb but strangely likeable guy... Although I recoiled in disgust when he burnt those girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentyn Baratheon Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Okay, that is pretty fucking evil. But R'Hllor and the Drowned God must be appeased!With the horrors commited because of those two gods, a man following both will do wonder in Essos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 One of the great things about Victarion is that he is one of those characters who you see from time to time in fiction, who's singlemindedness (relative) simplemindedness are actually a help rather than a hindrance. He gets through situations others don't because he doesn't overanalyze things in the way that others do, largely because it doesn't occur to him that they might be any more complicated that they seem. I still can't see his actual role being that great- he might kill an important character or be an important pawn for another character but I don't think he'll have too much more to do that that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumatil Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I havet this awesome scene in my head for Victarrion in Mereen.The Great Masters, Xaro Xhoan daxos, and possiby blood beard are making plans on sieging mereen or in the middle of it. The iron born blid side them from the sea, free some of the slaves and force them to fight their master(they never really needed uch encouragement did they anyways?) and some sell wors might have a change of heart a well.Eventually the great masters get offed, Victarion gets good fight from blood bard and he dies a bloody end.Victarrion noe theres just xaro.Xaro cries: Oh great warrior, please I have many riches, I can give you ships, silks, spices, jade, silver, gold, you must have price?!Victarrion leans in dirk in hand and says : Iron.Well I'm not the best at suspense or what not, but I think the general speal is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Endrew Tarth Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I havet this awesome scene in my head for Victarrion in Mereen.The Great Masters, Xaro Xhoan daxos, and possiby blood beard are making plans on sieging mereen or in the middle of it. The iron born blid side them from the sea, free some of the slaves and force them to fight their master(they never really needed uch encouragement did they anyways?) and some sell wors might have a change of heart a well.Eventually the great masters get offed, Victarion gets good fight from blood bard and he dies a bloody end.Victarrion noe theres just xaro.Xaro cries: Oh great warrior, please I have many riches, I can give you ships, silks, spices, jade, silver, gold, you must have price?!Victarrion leans in dirk in hand and says : Iron.Well I'm not the best at suspense or what not, but I think the general speal is good.Lets leave the writing to GRRM... LOL j/k not bad. Although I don't think Vic will single-handedly break the siege of mereen, but definitely the blockade of slaver's bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab aeterno Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 You know the joke is going to be on us when Victarion attaches three dragons to the Iron Victory and sails off across the Dothraki Sea on his flying dragon ship! :PEdited for spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 the thing that proved to me he is a nutcase was when he burnt those virgins alive and he noted how he thought right at the end the screams turned to cries of joy as they were taken into the sea paradise.I'm pretty sure that neither the red priests not the drowned men, or their gods, for that matter, would be pleased with that little show; it would be like trying an eclectic muslim/hare krishna rite, both parties would cry "blasphemy!".Moqorro tolerates it because he needs Victarion to reach Dany and her dragons and because he wants to steal Victarion's horn, but he considers the Drowned God a demon and can't be OK with that mixed sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angalin Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I wasn't advocating rape nor making a rape joke, I was saying rape in ancient times needs to be contextualized differently than rape today (you know, now that women aren't basically slaves any more). I even said I didn't condone it, just that it needed to be viewed through the lens of Westerosi society. So, still evil...but evil in a different way? Like slavery, or how we're slowly destroying the planet.No, I noted that you didn't, which is why your post still stands. There have been other threads measuring the relative morality of Westerosi society and ours, and the mods' consensus has always been that rape is evil no matter when or where.NB: we don't like torture porn or fanfiction either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msheafer33 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 You know, Robert Ervin Howard said that his characters Conan and Kull were stupid and violent, and that when facing a problem, they would hit, stab or crawl their way out of it using their brute force and resilience.I would love to see you try to dig up that quote, because it sounds dead wrong. Howard's Conan was not portrayed as stupid. Perhaps you are confusing the stories with the 1982 film.I think Victarion is GRRM's version of that kind of character, only that, unlike Robert E. Howard, he doesn't sympathize/identify with that kind of person and will show what would happen in a realistic world (they are destroyed by somebody who is not only brave, but also has a brain).I think you are confusing "stupid" with "evil". Even if Conan was stupid (which he wasn't), this would not "realistically" require that he have the morals of Victarion.Howard's Conan was perhaps no saint, but compared to Victarion, he was a white knight in shining armor. There is nothing "unrealistic" about Conan's ethics, which were actually rather loose.How can you compare Conan and Victarion? You must be thinking of that famous Conan quote "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." That makes Conan sound like Victarion. Problem is, Conan never said it. That is from the 1982 film. It is not something Howard's Conan ever said, or ever WOULD say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Lepus Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I would love to see you try to dig up that quote, because it sounds dead wrong. Howard's Conan was not portrayed as stupid. Perhaps you are confusing the stories with the 1982 film.I think you are confusing "stupid" with "evil". Even if Conan was stupid (which he wasn't), this would not "realistically" require that he have the morals of Victarion.Howard's Conan was perhaps no saint, but compared to Victarion, he was a white knight in shining armor. There is nothing "unrealistic" about Conan's ethics, which were actually rather loose.How can you compare Conan and Victarion? You must be thinking of that famous Conan quote "What is best in life? To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." That makes Conan sound like Victarion. Problem is, Conan never said it. That is from the 1982 film. It is not something Howard's Conan ever said, or ever WOULD say.The quote is from an interview they did with Howard. I would have to search for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msheafer33 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 The quote is from an interview they did with Howard. I would have to search for it.Yes, you would have to. Because I don't believe it.Edit: In fact, I doubt there are any extant interviews of Robert E. Howard. He published stories in pulp magazines, died very young in 1936, and achieved no particular fame during his lifetime. His fiction never even appeared in book form during his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretaryofEvil Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I don't agree with everyone's characterization that Victarion is evil. He's ironborn, through and through. If he showed mercy, he'd be labelled a coward and challenged until someone killed him. Unfortunately, Pyke has not had a feminist revolution, so not keeping concubines and raping women is a bit too forward thinking for him. Again, if he didn't keep salt wives, he'd not be a man.I'm not condoning this behavior necessarily, but it was a product of his time and society. Would you label George Washington and Thomas Jefferson as evil because they had slaves? If they had slaves today, they'd be evil. When they had slaves then, they were good farmers.It's the same with Victarion. In these times, he'd be committing war crimes. Back then, he was just an ironborn, and a damn honorable one compared to his peers.Yeah Victarion is actually rather ethical, it's just he has a shitty set of ethics. As I said in a previous thread:I've got a soft spot for Victarion. Firstly, it amuses me how his thought process is basically "VICTARION SMASH!" More importantly, I like how he is a living embodiment of Iron Islands' culture in all its awful, rapey, thieving, pigheaded glory. Victarion is pretty much everything the Ironborn expect a man to be. And it's a terrible, but interesting result. When you think about it, Victarion is a brave, dutiful, religious man who is also a skilled warrior and sailor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msheafer33 Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Yeah Victarion is actually rather ethical, it's just he has a shitty set of ethics.Yeah. He's very religious and "spiritual". It is just that the spirit he worships is kinda like Satan. Or Cthulhu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 He is a viking with a big axe, that is why most who do love him. He is more complex then that though, being far from one-dimensional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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