Why does everybody think that Aegon is fake?

[sumant30]

I have heard this being repeated N no of times on this forum that Aegon is a pretender, but are there any clues in the book supporting this theory?. Also i think the vision seen by danny in the house of undying of false dragon can be a trick which can be used by aegon to take storm's end like trojon horse.

[Maester Tormund]

I'm not really sure where people are getting that hes a fake from. I think its just speculation because he came out of nowhere. He just shows up out of nowhere and presents more of a power struggle.

If he is Aegon, the son of Rhaegar, then his claim to throne is stronger than Danys. Dany was the sister to the crown prince while Aegon was the son of the crown prince.

Also the whole "switched babies" thing just adds to the mystery.

[Im no Ser]

"Everyone" does not think he is fake. I accept that it is *possible* he is real.

I don't think he is, and not because of any prophecies [fn1]. I just find the evidence for to be incredibly weak. The evidence in favor is:

1 - Varys, a professional schemer who I trust as far as I can throw his chubby eunuch tuchus, says so.

2 - Varys says so in front of Kevan

3 - He has the right color hair

That's it [fn2]. The first two carry no weight with me, since Varys is not to be trusted. The third is easy enough for Varys and Ilyrio to fake, even if you don't subscribe to the Blackfyre theory. Ilyrio has been doing a thriving business in child slaves for years, and that color is not uncommon in Lys.

fn1 I'm with Marwyn the mage when it comes to prophecy: "[P]rophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it, and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is... And then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off everytime"

fn2 I've no doubt everyone in Faegon's party - including the boy himself - believes he is real. But they are all relying on Varys' say-so.

[AegonTargaryen]

I've seen the evidence that Aegon is a "fake" and most of it is very circumstantial and many who claim he isn't who he says he is claim he's a Blackfyre. Basically the evidence revolves around the mummer's dragon (which I personally always interpreted as a dragon belonging to a mummer rather than a fake dragon) but the problem with that is that a Blackfyre is as much of a dragon as any Targaryen, meaning he would be a "black" dragon rather than a "fake one".

Next some say Varys actions don't make much sense. Why hide the boy from Dany and Viserys? Why only introduce him now? My issue with this is that everything seems to indicate that Aegon believes himself to be Rhaegar's son. What's the point of putting a Blackfyre on the throne if he considers himself as Targaryen?

Anyways I don't have time to go into more detail, point is though that ever since the HotU I've been waiting for baby Aegon to resurface. I personally think he is who he says he is. And most of all...I actually like the guy. He does in a few chapters what Dany has been bitching about for five books.

[valyrian_steel]

When I look at things like this, I try and put prophecies, fore shadowing and the like off to one side. Sure they r clues but they tend to be slippery ones. What I like to look at is things that the author does and why he does them. One of the things about Aegon is he looks enough like Rhaegar that he goes to the trouble of disguising himself. That's pretty solid but the reason it's in the book is Argon is there and needs describing. The odd thing is there is also a description of his sister Rhaenys. Rhaenys to my recollection never appears in the books accept a third hand description of how she and Aegon supposedly died. The question is why go to the trouble of describing Rhaenys when she doesnt appear in the story? One answer is that it establishes that at least one of Rhaegar and Elia's children had brown hair and looked like a Martell. So when people tell me young Griff looks like a Targaryan and Jon Snow doesnt, I think of GRRM smiling.

[aryagonnakill]

I can't recall exactly where I read the post but I read a post about Ilyrio that was pretty well thought out. Ilyrio was said to have married above his stature, and when we were told about the Blackfyre line we were told it was extinguished in the male line, that could indicate that a female was still alive somewhere. If Ilyrio was thus married into the Blackfyre line it would make sense that he would want to see them back on the Iron throne because people care about their families legacies and for all of Ilyrios power and wealth he doesn't have any claim to royalty in Pentos. When he talks to Tyrion he tells him how it is better to be the ruler behind the ruler, the story was about how as soon as something go's wrong the people kill the King of Pentos and replace him. If Aegon thought he owed his life and place on the Iron throne to Ilyrio and varys, or more specifically if he was even Ilyrio's son he would most likely put them both on his council. Another point i've seen made was why would Varys save Aegon and not Elia. This is all circumstantial of course. I think my biggest reason for thinking he may be fake is because both Ilyrio and Varys seemed to have no desire to sit either Viserys or Dany on the Iron throne. This makes me believe in the Ilyrio marrying into the Blackfyre line theory. I know that Viserys was insane but Dany never showed that, and sending Dany off to die seems like it could only hurt Aegon's legitimacy. Marrying Aegon to Dany would seem to me to have been the best plan all along especially since it was known that Dany survived and was a true Targaryean, and it seems to me that this was not the plan until Dany hatched 3 dragons.

Edit: I forgot that people have also pointed to the "Dance of Dragons" to potentially mean another Blackfyre Targaryean fight not a literal fight between two of Dany's dragons, though the dragon horn makes that just as possible.

[scurvy]

Here's my recent, he's real baby switch scenario with defense of it down thread.

[SimonSez]

Kinda going off of what someone said earlier, it's possible that Aegon is another one of Vary's creatures. He's the real deal, but is in the end, like Jorah, being used. Although I find it hard to believe Princess Elia would let someone go off with her child and hold another in Aegon's place.

[CBroome1979]

SimonSez, Gilly lets Jon Snow switch her baby and Mance Rayder's...if Elia thought her baby's life was in mortal danger she might agree to the switch. Or she might not have been given a choice.

I'm on the fence as far as whether he is real or not...Jon Connington and Aegon seem to think he's real, and he has the physical attributes. Against him are the fact that I don't believe Varys ever says that he's THAT Aegon, only that he's Aegon, and the fact that the Golden Company was founded to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

As for those who believe he can't be real because he was introduced so late in the series, references to baby Aegon have been sprinkled in all the books, just like references to Euron Greyjoy. Euron shows up out of nowhere in Book 4 (or is it late in Book 3?) and just takes over the Iron Islands out of nowhere and no one questions that. I don't get it.

[conwaysuccess]

Remember though Jon Connington loved Rhaegar. (I believe it is some kind of unrequited love he love if Jon C. is Gay) I doubt he would be raising a Aegon

[scurvy]

Kinda going off of what someone said earlier, it's possible that Aegon is another one of Vary's creatures. He's the real deal, but is in the end, like Jorah, being used. Although I find it hard to believe Princess Elia would let someone go off with her child and hold another in Aegon's place.

Because it's doubling. The same thing happens with Gilly taking Mance's babe south with her and leaving her own baby behind.

Elia allowed the baby switch and actually helped sell it by holding the other baby to her breast because it was the only way to save Aegon. Either Tywin was going to sack the city and Varys learned about it from his birds or he knew there was going to be a siege by the armies of the North, the Vale, and the Stormlands until Tywin, the last and only remaining army of the Throne, gave in.

[SimonSez]

For some reason, I believe Vary's knew Elia would be in danger and let her die her horrible death, and I can't stand Varys for it. I know hindsight's 20/20 but Vary's was the one that told Aerys not to let the Lannisters into King's Landing. Varys should have smuggled mother and child both out.

[Jabronius Maximus]

That's a great point. The "mummer's dragon" could easily just mean a dragon belonging to or being associated w/ a mummer. That could mean that Aegon is indeed a dragon/Targ.

Can someone link to the post that is one of the most liked all-time posts in board history on this very topic? I think that would help the OP out a lot.

It's this one

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/69408-aegon-is-legitimate-its-obvious-right-long-op/

I must say the OP presents a compelling case, even though I'm in the Faegon camp (closer to the fence now after reading that post).

I also like the interpretation of the mummer's dragon being Quentyn (for thinking he could tame Viserion and Rhaegal). That would make Aegon the sun's son (if real, he is 50% Martell). This is a stretch, but it's a nice alternative interpretation.

I don't know where GRRM is headed with this storyline, but given that the evidence for Faegon is greater than that for Aegon, I wouldn't be surprised to see GRRM pull a fast one on us and reveal Aegon as a real Targaryen.

[Im no Ser]

Remember though Jon Connington loved Rhaegar. (I believe it is some kind of unrequited love he love if Jon C. is Gay) I doubt he would be raising a Aegon

I'm on the fence as far as whether he is real or not...Jon Connington and Aegon seem to think he's real

JonCon and Faegon believe Faegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia; the former for sure (we've been inside his head when he thinks it) and the latter almost certainly.

Varys is taking advantage of JonCon's feelings for Rhaegar. JonCon is the easiest to fool, because he wants - needs - to believe. If Faegon is real, his life has a purpose: to redeem his failure at the Battle of the Bells and place the son of the man he loved on the Iron Throne. If Faegon is fake, he's just another failed, bitter exile.

and he has the physical attributes.

He doesn't actually. He just has the hair:

[Rhaegar's] eye's were a deep purple, darker than this boy's

ADWD, chapter 61 (Connington POV)

Again, the only evidence in favor of him being Aegon Targaryen is that he has the right color hair and that Varys says so. There's no need to start talking about Mummer's Dragons or the window of opportunity to do a baby switch to disprove his paternity - the argument in favor rests entirely on the word of a professional liar.

To those of you in the "he's real" camp: what am I missing? Why should I trust Varys?

[CBroome1979]

I'm not in either camp...I just don't think either side has sufficient evidence to either prove or disprove that Young Griff is the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar. Even those that quote the prophecy just spout out about the mummer's (or in their words, fake) dragon. It could also be the former mummer Varys' dragon, in that he is the real Aegon who is just a tool of Varys. Everything about Aegon has been left ambiguous, purposely, to keep us guessing. I personally think the point is moot...whether he's real or not, he's arrived at the head of an army that is sweeping across the Stormlands, he's something new and exciting, and possibly he will seal the Dornish alliance. None of his allies will care whether he is real or fake, just as Tommen's allies don't really care if he is a product of incest or a 'true' king's son.

[AegonTargaryen]

Maybe I got this wrong but doesn't Jon remark at one point that the boy looks like Rhaegar?

My line of thought is that Aegon believes himself to be King Aegon VI Targaryen, son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell. What's the point of putting a Blackfyre on the throne if said Blackfyre considers himself to be for all intents and purposes a Targaryen?

The other possibility is that Aegon is just a random guy they're passing for Aegon, and Varys and Illyrio just want power in court. If all they are after is power, why not just deliver VIserys and Dany to King Robert? If all they are after is power, putting Aegon on the throne is an especially difficult way of achieving it. However, based on their actions it's pretty clear that both Varys and Illyrio have a genuine affection for the boy, and let's be honest, they've raised him to be a pretty damn good King. Varys even mentions they've raised him to to put his people first, something pretty unheard of in their world. All in all I think Varys may actually have been honest when he said he serves the realm, and he believes Aegon would be best for the realm.

By the way, I really like the kid, and if he turns out to be a Blackfyre, descended of Daemon Blackfyre, then meh, a black dragon on the Iron Throne is better than no dragon at all.

[Im no Ser]

I personally think the point is moot...whether he's real or not, he's arrived at the head of an army that is sweeping across the Stormlands, he's something new and exciting, and possibly he will seal the Dornish alliance. None of his allies will care whether he is real or fake, just as Tommen's allies don't really care if he is a product of incest or a 'true' king's son.

On this point I agree completely. Like Varys says, power resides where men belives it resides. What people believe is more important than what's true.

[Dragonfish]

That's a great point. The "mummer's dragon" could easily just mean a dragon belonging to or being associated w/ a mummer. That could mean that Aegon is indeed a dragon/Targ.

The problem with this is two-fold:

1) The mummer's dragon vision is associated with the line "slayer of lies." So whoever he is, there's clearly something fraudulent about him.

2) There are many instances of the term "mummer's X" being used to imply fraudulence of some kind. The most common are the terms "mummer's farce" and "mummer's show." There's also one instance in ADWD where Dany uses the term "mummer's tears" to describe someone else's insincere tears. The pattern here is very clear: "mummer's" is almost always used metaphorically, and almost always refers to something false. So why would we expect Martin to break this pattern now?

Maybe I got this wrong but doesn't Jon remark at one point that the boy looks like Rhaegar?

No, he never does.

[Black Wolf Smith]

If you put this post on the Gen forum, it would be 20 pages by now, and both sides would argue often using the same text for their side. I used to think he was real, I don't think he is anymore. While I can't tell you that I think that Varys lied, I just don't see him as being real any more.

[HouseLark]

Besides all the "mummer's dragon stuff", I just think it's the stuff of fan-fic to have a genuine Aegon emerge at this stage. It would be such a clumsy plot development that has no degree of foreshadowing in the series.