An answer to "Where do whores go?" - Tysha, Littlefinger, Tyrion

[butterbumps!]

Tywin is a part involved, because Tyrion was underage!

I think that GRRM's answers clearly refers to the possibility of Sansa requesting the annullment as Alayne, which, of course, can't be considered by a HS.

He also says that "no one needs to be present to annull a marriage".

Bringing this answer as a possible hint of a non-validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha is honestly VERY far-fetched, IMHO.

But is there a set of legal documents out there that would prove Tyrion's first marriage actually is annulled? I mean, if Tysha showed up to the Septon, isn't it quite possible that her accusation of Tyrion's bigamy would be believed? Perhaps bolstered by some kind of "evidence" LF produces, like a ring or some document stating the marriage had happened? The guy is accused of kinslaying and kingslaying; for some reason, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that the HS annuls his second marriage if Tysha came forward.

The second issue is whether there is another way to annul Sansa's marriage without bring harm on herself, since Martin said Alayne could not do it. I think this theory gets around the problem of Sansa's reveal quite well.

[Natalie_S]

I'm not sure what you mean. We aren't questioning the validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha. In fact, we are agreeing that the marriage was valid and quite possibly remains valid which would null and void Sansa's marriage to Tyrion.

No one needs to be present for a marriage to be officially annulled. But one must be present to request the annulment.

Sorry, I meant a non-validity of the annullment.

I think it was annulled. It was sad and not right, but I believe that the annullment is legally valid.

And I think that it's perfectly valid for a parent to request the annullment for an underage son (but it wouldn't be for any "Alayne Stone"), especially in a society like Westeros were families opinion about marriage are so important.

I don't think GRRM left any reason to believe that Tyrion's first marriage wasn't properly annulled.

Also because... sorry but it would be too easy!

There is already a way out for Tyrion and Sansa, which is that they can get an annullment, because there was no consummation.

Having 2 plot armours and 2 way out would make the narration redundant... the whole point is that the marriage issue must be kept at stake until Sansa doesn't regain her identity.

I think that this way to set the problem aside would be very dull and contrary to GRRM's way of handling the plot.

Then, of course I might be wrong, but that's just my opinion about how likely this theory is.

[Santa]

You people are redicoulous.

Sansa does not need to go to Kings landing to have her marriage annuled.

Keep dreaming, but nobody needs to pose as a mummers tysha, or invent that tyrion is still married to get sansa out of wedlock.

And for the south sansa is still the heir of the north. Or do you want to present another crackpot theory that harry marries a sansa who offers nothing but a 3rd in line stark.

If he accepts to marry somebody because of possible future advantages, those better be worth it.

[pat]

SSM

Perhaps my point is unclear but that SSM says clearly Neither Tyrion not Tysha need to be any specific location at any time for an annullment it just needs to be requested. of course it would need to be asked ?? A simple matter for Tywin to request for a minor of his household.

[butterbumps!]

Also because... sorry but it would be too easy!

There is already a way out for Tyrion and Sansa, which is that they can get an annullment, because there was no consummation.

Having 2 plot armours and 2 way out would make the narration redundant... the whole point is that the marriage issue must be kept at stake until Sansa doesn't regain her identity.

I think that this way to set the problem aside would be very dull and contrary to GRRM's way of handling the plot.

Then, of course I might be wrong, but that's just my opinion about how likely this theory is.

Yes, the non-consummation is an "out" but that would still require Sansa or Tyrion to petition at the Sept and request the annulment. The problem isn't really just about having a valid basis for annulment, but about Sansa not opening herself to risk by revealing herself too quickly. Lyanna's theory gets around this issue in a creative way that is still in line with carrying some seemingly unfinished business to its logical conclusion.

In terms of being "too easy," LyannaStark points out that the issue is not only whether or not the marriage is annulled successfully. There is an additional moral conundrum for Sansa once this annulment takes place, regarding whether she allows Sweetrobin to perish for the sake of her own power. Having this annulment gives Sansa a choice that is far more difficult than the issue of annulment in the first place.

[butterbumps!]

You people are redicoulous.

Sansa does not need to go to Kings landing to have her marriage annuled.

Keep dreaming, but nobody needs to pose as a mummers tysha, or invent that tyrion is still married to get sansa out of wedlock.

And for the south sansa is still the heir of the north. Or do you want to present another crackpot theory that harry marries a sansa who offers nothing but a 3rd in line stark.

If he accepts to marry somebody because of possible future advantages, those better be worth it.

How does one go about getting an annulment? Filling out the standard "divorce documents" and returning them via raven-mail? Martin said in that SSM that the request must be done in person by those involved in the marraige. You should honestly stop calling everyone "ridiculous" when your arguments do not reflect what is being said by Martin.

Even if we know that there are other Starks out there and that she's not the heir, this does not mean that her reveal as Sansa Stark is worthless. The Riverlands and the North will still rally for her. It's not as though Sansa doesn't come with power in her name. Besides, everyone (aside from Manderley and Davos) does believe that Sansa is the heir at the present time.

[Dr. Pepper]

Perhaps my point is unclear but that SSM says clearly Neither Tyrion not Tysha need to be any specific location at any time for an annullment it just needs to be requested. of course it would need to be asked ?? A simple matter for Tywin to request for a minor of his household.

Sansa is a minor as well but Martin clearly states that she would need to be present to request the annulment. There is no mention that an adult would need to be with her.

He's saying that they don't need to be at a specific location when the annulment is rewarded, but at least one of them needs to be at a specific place to request it. I gather that this means that an annulment isn't granted immediately upon request and likely follows our own policies where one puts in the request and then waits many days or months for a response.

[Ragnorak]

Lyanna I happen to think you have a brilliantly devious theory here.

I seem to recall Tywin handled the whole clean up locally and not with the High Septon. The HS would have annulment documents (or not have in Tyrion's case) so the issue of whether there was an annulment would be fairly straight forward for him. What happened to the drunken septon who married them? He survived Tywin's wrath IIRC.

[Booknerd2]

Love this theory still...

I mentioned it on the "Where Do Whores Go" thread because to debate that, this theory has to be looked at as a possible one, angle.

I am struggling with Robert Arryn not being Jon Arryn's...because I am not sure what camp I am in, with a few scenarios:

Fact: Lysa is in a loveless marriage, loves Petyr and not Jon...

A. A baby of Jon's might be welcome so she has consolation, she doesn't prevent it, so Robert is Jon's.

B. She is so baby crazy, she will welcome a baby from Jon or Petyr (assuming she is having an affair.) So either would be fine for her as the father.

C. She takes moon tea because she doesn't want Jon's baby. She is not that baby crazy, willing to wait, to make "right" what her father prevented, and wants to have Petyr's.

D. This bothers me....C.... because she is "pulling a Cersei." Repetitive.

E. It is some consolation because Robert Arryn is not a credit to his "father" Jon, sorry to say, but this will also be sad for Jon because his House is not passed directly to a son/heir.

F. If Robert is LF's, Lysa knew and that is why she was complicit in the death of Jon. Also, of course, because she didn't want Robert to be squired out.

G. If Robert is LF's, is there anyone else that would know, so LF is slapped in the face with this knowledge? But then again, I am not sure he would care if he was.

Not sure which of these I would lean toward.

[Natalie_S]

Sansa is a minor as well but Martin clearly states that she would need to be present to request the annulment. There is no mention that an adult would need to be with her.

He's saying that they don't need to be at a specific location when the annulment is rewarded, but at least one of them needs to be at a specific place to request it. I gather that this means that an annulment isn't granted immediately upon request and likely follows our own policies where one puts in the request and then waits many days or months for a response.

No, he says that she has to request it "as sansa", because the interviewer suggested that she could do it with another identity.

I think Martin just ruled out the possibility that she could ask for an annullment while keeping her Alayne identity, it's quite evident if you read the whole dialogue.

I don't think he wanted to say anything more specific about the Faith's annullment policy.

[pat]

Lyanna I happen to think you have a brilliantly devious theory here.

I seem to recall Tywin handled the whole clean up locally and not with the High Septon. The HS would have annulment documents (or not have in Tyrion's case) so the issue of whether there was an annulment would be fairly straight forward for him. What happened to the drunken septon who married them? He survived Tywin's wrath IIRC.

Its not brilliant it requires absolute Lannister stupidity and Tywin inventing his own definition of annullment. Cersei says you brought shame on us all it probably isnt a great big secret.

[butterbumps!]

They need to ask for an annullment but not specifically at the sept nor specifically to address the high septon to get his blessing. The catholic church functions with out the pope speaking to every tard who wants some thing im sure the seven can figure it out. Requesting an annullment in ours and martins world would not require large amounts of travel.

I'd take what you're saying more seriously without using "tard" but be that as it may.....

Do we know for certain that ANY septon can provide an annulment? Perhaps this could be a clue that the annulment Tywin sought was not technically legal, as it could easily be the case that all annulments must go through the HS to be legally binding. If it was so easy as this, then why hasn't LF done this? Surely there are Septons around who would give an annulment; further, as LyannaStark points out, LF's time is running out, and it is in his best interest to have this marriage annulled ASAP. So I ask again, if it is truly so simple and works the same in our world, why pray tell has LF NOT pursued this course of action?

I think that even if any old septon could overturn a marriage, perhaps it needs to be done by a more authoritative source to really hold ground and prevent anyone coming forth to protest it; it would be really tough for the Northmen and Riverlands crew to get behind Sansa if they had any doubt that a Lannister might use her to stake a claim on Winterfell.

[Simarilius]

Cool theory :)

But you are wrong about that Sweetrobin is Petyr's son. He can't be.

When Petyr slept with Lysa, was before Catlyn married Ned, so if Sweetrobin is Petyr's son he should be older than all of the Stark children, and we know he is not.

Correct me if I am wrong But Jon Arryn married Lysa, knowing that she had an abortion, and trough their marriage Lysa had many miscarriages and after many atempts they finaly produced Sweetrobin.

So Sweetrobin isn't Petyr's child :)

Lysa's multiple miscarriages could be her own abortions of Jon Arryn's child, knowing she only ever wanted Littlefinger's baby. Much like Cersei did with Robert's seeds.

[FanTasy]

First, respect for the thinking out of the theory. I'm not buying it, but of course it could be like this.

Regarding the question: where do whores go. I think it has been answered by Tyrion himself, as early as in AGOT.

He tells Bronn about the crofter's child that he was led to believe a whore recruited by Jaime "orphaned when her father died of fever, on her way to ... well, nowhere, really".

AGOT 42, Tyrion

[Bright Blue Eyes]

They need to ask for an annullment but not specifically at the sept nor specifically to address the high septon to get his blessing. The catholic church functions with out the pope speaking to every tard who wants some thing im sure the seven can figure it out. Requesting an annullment in ours and martins world would not require large amounts of travel.

But hey, "every tard" who wanted an annullment during the Middle Ages hat to address the Pope himself. Therefore annullment was a bit scarce.

[Scipio Africanus]

Do we know for certain that ANY septon can provide an annulment? Perhaps this could be a clue that the annulment Tywin sought was not technically legal, as it could easily be the case that all annulments must go through the HS to be legally binding. If it was so easy as this, then why hasn't LF done this? Surely there are Septons around who would give an annulment; further, as LyannaStark points out, LF's time is running out, and it is in his best interest to have this marriage annulled ASAP. So I ask again, if it is truly so simple and works the same in our world, why pray tell has LF NOT pursued this course of action?

Aren't you forgetting something in the case of Sansa? She's accused of or maybe even already tried for treason. LF reveals her and Cercei goes beserk (not that she won't do so anyway), and either sends assassins after Sansa or men to come pick her up.

And even if Cercei isn't in power anymore (and we shouldn't rule this out), the Faith will most likely want to question her. And what if she implies LF?

No LF can't move hasty on this one. You're right though that divorces aren't easily arranged though in Westeros, or so it seems.

[pat]

But hey, "every tard" who wanted an annullment during the Middle Ages hat to address the Pope himself. Therefore annullment was a bit scarce.

Marriage evolving into a sacrament of the catholic church was still going on during that time if i recall.

this is a fully formed church and the pope is only the bishop of Rome that is how they dodge lawsuits and stuff.

[Lyanna Stark]

But just so that I'm clear on this, the practical aspect that you're working from is this:

-- It would be a great danger to Sansa to ride into Baelor's sept and annul her marriage to Tyrion. Even if the Lannisters no longer have power, there is still incredible risk in doing this, not least of which is because she would be charged as a kingslayer by the Septon.

--Since a marriage must be annulled by one of the people in the marriage itself, this casts doubt on the legality of the annulment Tywin sought, and means that one of the 3 people in question must appear before the Septon to make this official. Tysha- real or fake- seems like the most plausible person to step forward and do this. Besides, LF seems to suggest that he has an ace up his sleeve that might suggest he's produced some way to annul Sansa's marriage easily.

--Safely in the Eyrie, Alayne can reveal herself as Sansa. As Sansa, she weds Harry the Heir, joining the power of Winterfell and the Vale, to what end for LF, only the gods know. But between the distance from KL and the fact that this reveal and marriage will bring Sansa militaristic strength, this will protect her, so that if she becomes known as Sansa, she will have the forces and fealty to oppose those who might try to bring her down. ETA: I don't mean to imply that she's the heir to Winterfell, but just the fact that she is Sansa might bring at least the Riverlands to her cause, if not the Northmen (who are otherwise engaged at the moment).

Completely correct. :)

There is also the Tyrells to consider, that even if the High Septon does not care about the regicide/finds Sansa innocent, the Tyrells could still apprehend her as they have previously showed an interest in marrying her to Willas to cement a Tyrell alliance/claim to Winterfell through her. Sansa alone will not be safe in Kings Landing. While the main threat is the Lannisters, we have seen that Tyrells are equally cutthroat and I imagine that further factions would like to lay their hands on her if they could. The Vale is very hard to conquer since an army either has to land by sea, or besiege the Bloody Gate in winter, meaning "outing" Sansa will be safer there.

Tywin is a part involved, because Tyrion was underage!

I think that GRRM's answers clearly refers to the possibility of Sansa requesting the annullment as Alayne, which, of course, can't be considered by a HS.

He also says that "no one needs to be present to annull a marriage".

Bringing this answer as a possible hint of a non-validity of the marriage between Tyrion and Tysha is honestly VERY far-fetched, IMHO.

You are arguing from a catholic perspective. There is nothing to suggest that "underage" in itself is a threat to the validity of the marriage. In that case, we have several cases where the marriage would not be valid:

* Daenerys - Khal Drogo: Dany was underage

* Tyrek - Ermesande Hayford: Ermesande is what? Three?

* fake!Arya - Ramsay Bolton: Arya is underage

and lastly: Tyrion - Sansa Stark: Sansa was underage at the time of the wedding, making it automatically void.

Hence your point about underage is moot. If you want to argue that point, then Tyrion is not married to anyone currently.

[Ragnorak]

They need to ask for an annullment but not specifically at the sept nor specifically to address the high septon to get his blessing. The catholic church functions with out the pope speaking to every tard who wants some thing im sure the seven can figure it out. Requesting an annullment in ours and martins world would not require large amounts of travel.

But it would require Sansa to say "I am alive and well and staying in the Eyrie." It isn't a form you fill out and there may be questions a HS wants her to answer. Even if she could request it by raven, she is still placing a target on her back. Lyanna's solution gets the marriage annuled without even bringing Sansa into the equation. A real or fake Tysha could have some pretext to dispute the second marriage (money, an heir) and thus not even raise awareness of Sansa in the process.

[Dr. Pepper]

They need to ask for an annullment but not specifically at the sept nor specifically to address the high septon to get his blessing. The catholic church functions with out the pope speaking to every tard who wants some thing im sure the seven can figure it out. Requesting an annullment in ours and martins world would not require large amounts of travel.

Ok, I think I understand your confusion and what you are trying to say. It seems as though you are comparing Westeros directly with our own modern world where we have comprehensive court systems in place to deal with marital issues. I should point out that every noble tard in our own medieval times having to request an annulment directly from the pope. Using Henry VIII as an example, he had to request annulments directly from the pope and it did not require him to travel long distances. However, it required that the church know where he was located in order for communication to take place. I suppose it is very possible that Sansa could request an annulment in writing but she would still have the same threat as if she requested in person. Return communication from the Sept can easily be monitored to discover her location. She is wanted for treason and regicide.