Learning to Lead V: endings and beginnings. A Daenerys and Jon reread ADWD reread project

[Lummel]

Ladies and Gentlemen!

Welcome to Learning to Lead V!

We have been rereading Daenerys' and Jon's ADWD chapters with a particular focus on leadership, comparing and contrasting the two of them as they attempt to come to grips with their duties and ambitions.

The project is led by Butterbumps!, Dr.Pepper and myself with the aims of

• having a chapter by chapter reread to focus our attention on the whole arc
  
• a comparison of the Daenerys and Jon arcs which have distinct parallels
  
• a consideration of both as leaders and the development of their leadership styles and abilities with relevant comparison to other characters in the books
  
• courteous and respectful posting
  

and we were particularly keen to avoid the ruts that Daenerys and Jon threads can easily get caught in. Due to some excellent contributions including those on architecture, clothing and the trappings of power we hope we have been successful in bringing something newish to the forum.

The most recent chapter posted was Jon XIII and the formal chapter posting will be completed by Butterbumps! presenting Daenerys X.

The earlier threads are here: Learning to Lead I, II, III and IV.

[Ragnorak]

These are the relevant passages I could find for the doll references.

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin’s Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man’s sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

“I can keep it?” she said. “For true?”

“For true.” He smiled. “If I took it away, no doubt I’d find a morningstar hidden under your pillow within the fortnight. Try not to stab your sister, whatever the provocation.”

“I won’t. I promise.” Arya clutched Needle tightly to her chest as her father took his leave.

The doll was made up to look like a man-at-arms, sort of, so the girl called him Ser Soldier and bragged how he kept her safe. “Go away,” Arya told her half a hundred times. “Just leave me be.” She wouldn’t, though, so finally Arya took the doll away from her, ripped it open, and pulled the rag stuffing out of its belly with a finger. “Now he really looks like a soldier!” she said, before she threw the doll in a brook. After that the girl stopped pestering her, and Arya spent her days grooming Craven and Stranger or walking in the woods. Sometimes she would find a stick and practice her needlework, but then she would remember what had happened at the Twins and smash it against a tree until it broke.

“Robert, stop that.” Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll’s head, Robert had the legs and body, and the rag-and-sawdust stuffing was spilling in the snow.

She wondered if Lord Robert would shake all through their wedding. At least Joffrey was sound of body. A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll’s head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she’d done he laughed. “If the tales be true, that’s not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell’s walls.”

“Those are only stories,” she said, and left him there.

Both Arya and Sansa are filled with rage when the dolls are ripped. Sansa over the destruction of Winterfell and Arya over the deaths at the Red Wedding, especially Cat and Robb. Both fits of rage are inspired by a desire to go home. Arya's big concern at the Twins was that she had almost reached her family. Sansa actually builds Winterfell and confronts LF about not actually taking her home. Jon's rage is internal and has been on the edge of breaking through the whole chapter. The "doll" incident is not his rage and provokes him to attempt to control others' rage from brimming over. The same call of home is clearly there for him as it was with Arya and Sansa, but his rage was just prior in the Shield Hall.

Ramsay's letter has heads on the walls of Winterfell just like Sansa's doll incident and I'm not sure what to make of the morningstar connection or if it even means anything.

Also the lichyard is where Lady is buried. Is a new warg in Jon's life living near Lady's symbolic grave meaningful?

ETA

Arya throws the doll in the brook like she threw Joffrey's sword in the river

Sansa puts the doll's head on a pike. She saw Ned beheaded and was forced by Joffrey to look at Ned's head mounted on a wall.

Still think there's a common rage and a call of home at play but I can't find a unifying thread.

[Blisscraft]

About Chapter 13 Under the US Bankruptcy Code. It's an individual filing, as opposed to a corporation, and it is a reorganization, as opposed to a liquidation.

Like Ice Turtle's post about Bowen's tears. Would like to read what other posters think as well.

[tze]

Also the lichyard is where Lady is buried. Is a new warg in Jon's life living near Lady's symbolic grave meaningful?

Given the heavily intertwined nature of Jon's and Sansa's arcs, I can't imagine it's a coincidence. :) The Winterfell lichyard is the final resting place for those who served House Stark loyally and faithfully. The fact that Borroq is hanging out in the Castle Black lichyard (especially given that he's just come from a place where the dead tend to rise and attack---why is he comfortable hanging out near corpses??) could be a hint as to Borroq's future allegiances.

It seems like "tears" have been used to implicitly differentiate the cultures and values of the South and North, "summer's people" versus "winter's people". Jon pointed out that none of the wildlings cried, not even the hostages, because they are winter's people and where they come from, tears freeze upon your cheeks. But in the Vale, we heard the tale of Alyssa Arryn, who was punished by the gods (the Seven, given that she was an Arryn) for failing to cry. And of course "tears" have been associated heavily with poison in the South. So by crying, an activity shunned by the forces of the North and advocated by the forces of the South, Bowen Marsh implicitly divorces himself from "winter's people", and symbolically associates himself with the (poisonous) concerns of the South, not the North.

About the boar - BB, you mentioned the boar. Borroq and his boar are part of the last of Tormund's band. I can't help but think that the "boar" in this series is alittle like oranges in "The Godfather" movies. In the GF movies, everytime oranges are present, something bad happens. One of many examples is when Vito gets shot selecting oranges. A couple of examples in this series is that a boar kills Robert and a boar draws Drogon to the pit. The appearance of this "wilding boar" which is in fact the warg Borroq's creature is significant as a portent of destruction.

I think boars can also be seen as heralding regime change, because every time a boar shows up, it either foreshadows the ascension of a new ruler or it literally causes the ascension of a new ruler. The boar in AGOT heralded the death of the Baratheon dynasty and ascension of Joffrey, a 100% Lannister King. The boar in Daznak's Pit heralded the ascension of King Hizdahr as a sole ruler (and began a string of events that led to the deposition of the Meereenese monarchy and the ascension of Barristan and his council). Cersei sought out boar for dinner when she began her "Let's kill Margaery" plan---but the kitchens had no boar, so she made do with eating a sow; Cersei's lack of boar = Cersei's failure to knock the Tyrells out of power. At the Harvest Festival at Winterfell, Bran specifically sent boar to Whoresbane and Crowfood Umber, two men who now seem to be working to destroy the Bolton regime. In ACOK, Roose Bolton, who later tries to usurp the Starks, returns to Harrenhal after hunting wolves and specifically asks for a dinner of boar. Jon sees a roasting boar in the wildling camp right before he's taken to meet Mance for the first time (thus heralding Mance's future loss of power), and Sansa is served boar at the Queen of Thorns/Margaery dinner where it appears the Tyrells fully decide to murder Joffrey and make Tommen the King. Right before Missandei comes to tell him about the Shavepate's invitation to conspire against King Hizdahr, Barristan remembers the taste of the boar he ate the day he was first knighted.

Every time boar shows up, it seems to herald someone losing (and someone else gaining) political power.

[brashcandy]

OT, but tze has me really hoping boar is served at Lord Nestor's feast. :)

[Associate Maester]

Given the heavily intertwined nature of Jon's and Sansa's arcs, I can't imagine it's a coincidence. :) The Winterfell lichyard is the final resting place for those who served House Stark loyally and faithfully. The fact that Borroq is hanging out in the Castle Black lichyard (especially given that he's just come from a place where the dead tend to rise and attack---why is he comfortable hanging out near corpses??) could be a hint as to Borroq's future allegiances.

It seems like "tears" have been used to implicitly differentiate the cultures and values of the South and North, "summer's people" versus "winter's people". Jon pointed out that none of the wildlings cried, not even the hostages, because they are winter's people and where they come from, tears freeze upon your cheeks. But in the Vale, we heard the tale of Alyssa Arryn, who was punished by the gods (the Seven, given that she was an Arryn) for failing to cry. And of course "tears" have been associated heavily with poison in the South. So by crying, an activity shunned by the forces of the North and advocated by the forces of the South, Bowen Marsh implicitly divorces himself from "winter's people", and symbolically associates himself with the (poisonous) concerns of the South, not the North.

I think boars can also be seen as heralding regime change, because every time a boar shows up, it either foreshadows the ascension of a new ruler or it literally causes the ascension of a new ruler. The boar in AGOT heralded the death of the Baratheon dynasty and ascension of Joffrey, a 100% Lannister King. The boar in Daznak's Pit heralded the ascension of King Hizdahr as a sole ruler (and began a string of events that led to the deposition of the Meereenese monarchy and the ascension of Barristan and his council). Cersei sought out boar for dinner when she began her "Let's kill Margaery" plan---but the kitchens had no boar, so she made do with eating a sow; Cersei's lack of boar = Cersei's failure to knock the Tyrells out of power. At the Harvest Festival at Winterfell, Bran specifically sent boar to Whoresbane and Crowfood Umber, two men who now seem to be working to destroy the Bolton regime. In ACOK, Roose Bolton, who later tries to usurp the Starks, returns to Harrenhal after hunting wolves and specifically asks for a dinner of boar. Jon sees a roasting boar in the wildling camp right before he's taken to meet Mance for the first time (thus heralding Mance's future loss of power), and Sansa is served boar at the Queen of Thorns/Margaery dinner where it appears the Tyrells fully decide to murder Joffrey and make Tommen the King. Right before Missandei comes to tell him about the Shavepate's invitation to conspire against King Hizdahr, Barristan remembers the taste of the boar he ate the day he was first knighted.

Every time boar shows up, it seems to herald someone losing (and someone else gaining) political power.

I have a nasty feeling that Selyse, the Queen's Men, and possibly Mel are going to get a "taste" of boar related justice via Borroq for not respecting the Old Gods and their laws (hospitality and weirwood burning). Per the other thread boars particularly of the "monstrous" variety are associated in Greek and Persian myth with punishing those that fail to honor the gods.

[butterbumps!]

About Chapter 13 Under the US Bankruptcy Code. It's an individual filing, as opposed to a corporation, and it is a reorganization, as opposed to a liquidation.

Like Ice Turtle's post about Bowen's tears. Would like to read what other posters think as well.

I haven't put together all my thoughts on this chapter yet, but just briefly:

Chapter 13 (heh): There's a ton of ominous associations with the number 13, and among them I do think the individual reorganization that Blisscraft brings up applies (the corporate one is "chapter 11," I think). The symbolism of personal bankruptcy I find quite compelling, given that this is precisely where the Watch and "what is right" begin to conflict in a way that Jon is left with an impossible choice, while simultaneously finds himself trying to regain whatever little emotional capital he has left. (I suppose some jokes about going from "black to red" are also in order here).

On Bowen's tears: I agree with Ice Turtle. I have some, ahem, "particular" views of Bowen, I admit, and I do think that Bowen's tears are probably about something other than what he's doing to Jon-- at least the idea of sacrificing Jon for the sake of "the Watch." I think that there is some yet unseen influence that has transpired- either a threat from some political entity or directly from Mel. At best, I think that Bowen is being directly cajoled and crying because this is something he would not ordinarily wish to do, and that he knows his death is likely imminent. As of right now, though, I don't believe that Bowen's motives are "pure" such that he is doing this based on being a loyal adherent to the policy of maintaining neutrality, based on my memory of all his rationalizations throughout this book and previous ones, which I believe take on a political tone.

Either way, I think we're missing something in terms of Bowen's motives and desired outcome.

"Boars, boars everywhere, and not a ham to eat?" This week's winner of the award for Excellence in Common sense goes to Tagganaro, who in another thread, pointed out the fact that the damn "pig army," if true, could really be seen as a good thing in terms of providing food for the Watch. If there were tons of boars, why weren't they used for food?

I'm going to post a fuller analysis of the chapter-- I'm a bit behind on that because the crackpots I believe about this are hard to separate from a real analysis :frown5:

[Blisscraft]

Meant to get back to this earlier, but GG sheds tears for Dany in front of Barry. Is it too much like Bowen? Or just a happy coincidence?

[tze]

Meant to get back to this earlier, but GG sheds tears for Dany in front of Barry. Is it too much like Bowen? Or just a happy coincidence?

Perhaps it's meant as a hint that the Green Grace was behind the assassination attempt on Dany.

[Winterfellian]

Am still going through all the previous post, so I will just write down my take with the Hardhome mission to finish reading all your great posts.

I confess that on my first read I saw this mission as an unwillingness in Jon to let go of his intentions to save everyone. There are other factors I didn’t take into account at first that shade new light about this quest:

- They are taking men seasoned in surviving the wild north, Tormund and his band. The rangers Jon and even Mormont send before faced the combined threat of both wildings and Others. Now the wildings are removed as a threat to go as guides for the NW. These people managed to make the way to Castle Black after Val was sent to treat with them; and they did so with many women, children, sick or injured. They are a great asset for the expedition not only for their knowledge of the forest but in their experience fighting or rather surviving the Others and their wights.

- At the beginning it was about saving Mother Mole and her lot but now they are men of the Night Watch trapped in there too. As things stood by the end of the book the rangers looked the more supportive of Jon’s policies. Do you think they will still stay behind him if the LC dismissed the cry for help of fellow rangers on a mission Jon himself ordered them too? Most likely, Jon would become the Lord Commander who didn’t give a damn and let his own men to die. Ignoring Cotter’s please will further decimate his popularity among his own men.

- The wildings entered the sphere of politics in Castle Black and with their numbers they are a force to be reckoned with whether the black brothers like him or not. Their support is to be taking into consideration as well. Jon must ensure they remain loyal to the Night Watch and almost as importantly to make them see him as a sort of Mance figure to assure this continued loyalty. Casting his lot with the Southron fools and their mentality of “they are doomed anyway so let them die” isn’t going to achieve any of this.

After taking into accounts the above the Hardhome mission becomes necessary for the wildings and the Night Watch alike and not just a humanitarian effort.

[Winter's Lass]

Hi! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I just wanted to say that I've been following this thread from v1 and I think it's wonderful.

Threads as interesting as this one are what convinced me to finally join this forum. Also, reading Learning to Lead has been fun and has helped me to finally appreciate Dany's chapters in Mereen.

That said, I was wandering if you were planning to end the analysis with some sort of conclusion. I'm asking because asshai.com in July, asshai.com posted an interview to GRRM in spanish. I found a thread here where the interview is mentioned, but they only translated the first questions. In question 17 (the longest answer by far) of what can be found in asshai.com, GRRM talks about the Mereenese Knot (is that how you spell it??) and its main points and conflicts regarding Dany's story.

As I said the interview is in spanish, but if anyone is interested, I could traslate what he says on the issue. I found particularly interesting the part where GRRM says that what happens in Mereen is esential to the development of both dance Dance and the series. I wonder if he meant because Dany has learned from the fiasco that was Mereen or because the tales of what happened there will reach Westeros and give her a 'bad reputation' before she even gets there.

Last and, you know, since the current subject is Jon XIII, I couldn't help but notice that in the Pink Letter it says:

"Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows".

Do we have any previous indications that people south of the Wall refer to the NW as crows? Otherwise, I can only assume that it's something else in favour to the theory that the real author was Mance and not Ramsay.

(by the way, sorry for any spelling mistakes but when writing in english my mind is a complete mess of spanish, british english and american english!)

[Winterfellian]

@ Winter's Lass, Welcome! Glad you have enjoyed the thread. Like you, the many opinions in the thread have helped me appreciate Dany's arch in Mereen a lot more than I did on my first read. Am curious to read about the interview you mention. I will look it up :).

I think you made a very interesting observation here:

"Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows".

Do we have any previous indications that people south of the Wall refer to the NW as crows? Otherwise, I can only assume that it's something else in favour to the theory that the real author was Mance and not Ramsay.

In his conversation about love and duty Jon has with Maester Aemon Jon tells him: "The wildings call us crows". I can't remember any other south of the wall calling a member of the NW this way.

Another observation I noticed in parallel to Dany in this chapter:

Dragons and Giants

I think there are some interesting parallels between the Wun Wun losing control here with the circumstances regarding Dany’s dragons.

First, there is the deconstruction of the old fantasy trope. Much like Quentyn, Ser Patrek intended to battle with a monster to obtain a boon in return (glory/the princess) and died for his efforts. However am beginning to wonder if this giant turning violent isn’t somehow an expression of Jon’s repressed rage being released much like the rogue dragon’s are an expression of a part Dany’s personality also being released after being held captive. Before this scene it looks like Jon is on the verge of finally cracking, the same as Dany was in the pits. Also I found his “He did not want them (Bowen and his lot) very similar to Dany’s “they are his (Hizdahr’s) people. It looks like they are both done with people like Marsh and Hizdahr and the positions they are subjected to assume because of them so they declare their desire to free themselves from them. Jon by siding with the wildings and taking a stand against Bolton, Dany by dropping her floppy ears before going away in Drogon. The main difference was that while Dany got to fly away Jon was prevented to leave and had to stay and faced the consequences of his decisions, the good ones and the bad. Dany made it because she had one dragin still free while Jon had Ghost locked away in his cell.

Going back to the parallels between Giants and dragons, in some cultures the myth of the giants alludes to the existence of an immense and primary being from whose sacrifice creation arose. I find this interesting because we have yet another element associating Jon with a sacrifice required to bring life, much like the Corn King allusions. There is also the number of elements many of us associate with the AA myth.

[Lummel]

...- At the beginning it was about saving Mother Mole and her lot but now they are men of the Night Watch trapped in there too. As things stood by the end of the book the rangers looked the more supportive of Jon’s policies. Do you think they will still stay behind him if the LC dismissed the cry for help of fellow rangers on a mission Jon himself ordered them too? Most likely, Jon would become the Lord Commander who didn’t give a damn and let his own men to die. Ignoring Cotter’s please will further decimate his popularity among his own men...

I agree with you that the Wildlings (or free folk as Jon refers to them in the Shieldhall ;) ) are a constituency that Jon has to consider but isn't the situation more complex since it was Jon who put his own men at risk by sending the fleet north in the stormy autumn seas to start with?

I'm not sure that the rangers are supportive or not of Jon's policies. Going back to Jon IV we learn that the stewards and the builders want to seal the gates while the rangers want to keep them open. Jon pursues a third and different policy - making peace with the wildlings. Even in Jon's POV we can see some people are unhappy about this while others are relived and we don't have another POV here to balance out Jon's. However since even Yarwyck seems to have spent enough time with enough wildlings to know that some are good carpenters, but they don't have useful masonry or blacksmithing skills I assume there is largely acceptance of what Jon is doing.

Hi! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I just wanted to say that I've been following this thread from v1 and I think it's wonderful.

Threads as interesting as this one are what convinced me to finally join this forum. Also, reading Learning to Lead has been fun and has helped me to finally appreciate Dany's chapters in Mereen.

That said, I was wandering if you were planning to end the analysis with some sort of conclusion. I'm asking because asshai.com in July, asshai.com posted an interview to GRRM in spanish. I found a thread here where the interview is mentioned, but they only translated the first questions. In question 17 (the longest answer by far) of what can be found in asshai.com, GRRM talks about the Mereenese Knot (is that how you spell it??) and its main points and conflicts regarding Dany's story.

Thank you, and welcome :)

We weren't planning on having a conclusion. I hope that everybody who has taken part has come to their own conclusions - I certainly would be interested to read if people's opinions have changed with the thread or been strengthened in one direction or another. It is true that Winterfellian and I disagreed about how far the Daenerys and Jon stories paralleled each other - maybe we should return to that. I wonder if everything we have covered is all too complex and sprawling for a conclusion - what kind of a conclusion did you have in mind Winter's Lass?

As I said the interview is in spanish, but if anyone is interested, I could traslate what he says on the issue. I found particularly interesting the part where GRRM says that what happens in Mereen is esential to the development of both dance Dance and the series. I wonder if he meant because Dany has learned from the fiasco that was Mereen or because the tales of what happened there will reach Westeros and give her a 'bad reputation' before she even gets there.

Hmm there seem to be a couple of bits of translations from that interview floating about. This is what we have on the Meereenese knot - and the translation doesn't match with what you are telling us:

Now that we know how the "Meereenese knot" played out, what was the problem with this? For example, was it the order in which Dany met various characters, or who, when, and how someone would try to take the dragons?

Now I can explain things. It was a confluence of many, many factors: lets start with the offer from Xaro to give Dany ships, the refusal of which then leads to Qarth's declaration of war. Then there's the marriage of Daenerys to pacify the city. Then there's the arrival of the Yunkish army at the gates of Meereen, there's the order of arrival of various people going her way (Tyrion, Quentyn, Victarion, Aegon, Marwyn, etc.), and then there's Daario, this dangerous sellsword and the question of whether Dany really wants him or not, there's hte plague, there's Drogon's return to Meereen...

All of these things were balls I had thrown up into the air, and they're all linked and chronologically entwined. The return of Drogon to the city was something I explored as happening at different times. For example, I wrote three different versions of Quentyn's arrival at Meereen: one where he arrived long before Dany's marriage, one where he arrived much later, and one where he arrived just the day before the marriage (which is how it ended up being in the novel). And I had to write all three versions to be able to compare and see how these different arrival points affected the stories of the other characters. Including the story of a character who actually hasn't arrived yet.

so maybe there is something you can add to that?

and there is also this (not in the Citadel version) about Jon XIII (from here)

- In the last Jon Snow chapter from ADWD, for the first time there's a temporary ellipsis in the story of events. Is that a deception for the reader?

Oh, I don't think is the first time, I've done it plenty! (laughs) There are a lot of conversations we didn't get to listen (laughs). Anyway, it is uncovered a few minutes later in a more dramatic way. Jon gives this great speech in front of everyone explaining what Tormund and himself had decided: Jon is going to ride South with his army against Bolton's bastard and Tormund will command the bulk of the Night's Watch to Hardhome. That's what they were discussing.

Dragons and Giants

I think there are some interesting parallels between the Wun Wun losing control here with the circumstances regarding Dany’s dragons...

Going back to the parallels between Giants and dragons, in some cultures the myth of the giants alludes to the existence of an immense and primary being from whose sacrifice creation arose. I find this interesting because we have yet another element associating Jon with a sacrifice required to bring life, much like the Corn King allusions. There is also the number of elements many of us associate with the AA myth.

Yes it is interesting, not something I had noticed, with the spectators looking the two scenes do seem similar...

[Ragnorak]

Hi! I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I just wanted to say that I've been following this thread from v1 and I think it's wonderful.

Threads as interesting as this one are what convinced me to finally join this forum. Also, reading Learning to Lead has been fun and has helped me to finally appreciate Dany's chapters in Mereen.

Welcome Winter's Lass. This thread also allowed me to fully appreciate Dany's Meereen chapters for the first time. It completely changed the reading experience from drudgery to curiosity and also changed my whole take on Dany's story after leaving Qarth.

@Winterfellian

Love the Dany/Jon Drogon/Wun Wun parallel. I stared right at the giant as a vicarious expression of Jon's rage when considering the dolls and dismissed it because it seemed like reaching. Very nice observation.

[Blisscraft]

Welcome from me, too, Winter's Lass. What a trooper you are to read through all of this. Kudos to you and your perserverance!

BB - Can't wait further analysis from you. A little crackpottery is fine, afterall, there is nothing definitive regarding analysis. It's all opinion. It's not like the result of a pregnancy test or something. Crack pot away!

WF - Interesting parallel between dragons and giants. Both species are "monsters," in the traditional sense. However, I hate to think of them in that way because, I've come to see Wun Wun as a person (usually chomping, no boar required, on a basket of 'neeps). Although, I've yet to bestow "personhood" on the dragons, they are sentient and seem to have value beyond their destructive potential. (Maybe it's because I would love to fly on one's back).

Conclusions - I don't have any other than I love the series so much. I love the characters and all of the stories within stories, layers upon layers of information. Every time I go back and look again at the texts, I see a detail I never noticed before. It's fun. Also, I love to read what others have noticed and what they think. I don't see this world as "either/or." It doesn't have "sides." It has volume.

[Maia]

So, I am behind the times as usual, so some residual commentary on commentary on Barristan's chapters ;).

This has echoes of Ned in Kings Landing. An honorable man trying to protect the monarch he loves cooperating with a man on the small council who has risen above his station and wishes to use that status to settle old debts.

Well, not exactly. Barristan is trying to protect Dany's works rather than Dany herself and Skahaz is actually tied to these works as a basis of his power, in a way that LF was never tied to Robert. And, as you said, no previous history as well as the fact that Barristan is the only person who can really hold things together in Dany's absence in a way that would be at least somewhat in Skahaz's interest. Which is why it has went better for Barristan than Ned so far - Ned chose to ignore that he and LF had no common interests, even after being flat-out told about it, while Barry notes thatat least Skahaz has an anti-Loraq agenda and that provides some common ground.

The Shavepate has clearly been busy keeping in touch with and unifying those factions loyal to Dany. I found myself lamenting that Dany didn't do something more with these followers

Oh, indeed. Quite annoying. But I feel that GRRM just didn't want to invent any background for these followers and that's why we only hear about them when a PoV character has way too much on their plate to investigate more.

Barristan can get away with his many fly-by insights, because he, unlike Dany, really doesn't have the leisure to go into all this stuff more deeply - and I suspect that by the end of the siege of Meeren it will all become irrelevant anyway, so won't need to be depicted in more detail.

I like how Barristan reasons through everything the Shavepate tells him. I also find his reasoning interesting from the perspective of his value as a counselor to Dany.

Oh, indeed. Barristan is such an interesting and infuriating character, in that we are now shown that he actually has insight and is far more supple and capable of change than he appears. As I have already mentioned, it is funny how off Ned's estimation of him was.

But... Barry actively resists sharing his insight and making decisions. He has to be backed into the corner to break through his resistance... but once that happens, he is actually rather capable and decisive.

I still don't understand why Barristan absolutely refused to tutor Dany, though - he must have seen that she was really floundering for lack of training and good advice.And giving good advice was one of his sworn duties as LC of KG too.

It is not like he believes that kings/queens are born perfect either - so, is there another trauma hidden in his history, along with his "finest act" of rescuing Aerys from Duskendale, which only served to plunge the realm into dire straits and destroy the Targaryen dynasty?

First this makes Dany, Ned, Jon, and Barristan (am I missing anyone?) the stand outs as far as flat out refusing to kill innocent children regardless of the consequences.

Well, Ned's attitude re: Theon, when he was a child hostage, was unclear and Jon _claimed_ that he'd execute the child hostages if need arose... but I don't believe that he would be able to go through.

This is different than Jorah's fixation on his wife, but interesting how yet another man see's Dany in some way as a surrogate for a woman he's lost in his life. In this case it seems the daughter Barristan never had with Ashara.

And also, as has been mentioned previously (sorry, no time to go hunting for attribution), Dany is something good that came out of Barristan saving Aerys at Duskendale, which otherwise resulted only in suffering and destruction. So, she offers a double surrogate for him - daughter he never had and all those "good" Targaryens whom he had doomed by saving Aerys.

Red and black are the colors of House Targaryen. The third hall recalls Dany's symolism of threes.

Oh, very interesting.

His excuse for not trying the locusts is that spicy food doesn't agree with him. Aside from immediately before regailing how they are both "hot and sweet at once" as if such a taste alone is all the explanation prompting her to taste them requires, this is the guy whose favorite food is honeyed dog stuffed with peppers.

Heh, a very good observation. Yet, he is so totally at sea without Dany that I really don't know. Frankly, Belwas not dying made me think that maybe the locusts weren't intended to kill, but to make Dany sick and remove her from action for a time, à la what Tyrion did to Cersei. But maybe that's too subtle for Hizdahr - maybe he just overestimated his power/support and truly thought that he could do without Dany.

This choice to slip into Magnificence when he wants answers is a subtlety and coyness we rarely see in Barristan.

Yes, who could have thought that Barristan could be snarky?! The guy seriously needs to come out of his shell - I kinda want to see him with Tyrion now.

Barristan is, and always has been, a devout follower. His honor has always been defined by obedience. Stomaching the dishonorable acts of Kings he was sworn to protect has been his challenge and obedience has been his measure of success.

Yes, indeed. And I really feel that the Dance of the Dragons and maybe other cautionary tales in KG history made Barristan really reluctant to interfere with the actions of kings.

Davos is in a somewhat different position, I feel, since the Hand is _supposed_ to be a leader too, even though subordinate to the King, and also maybe in his case ignorance is bliss?

Also, personality-wise Barristan prefers following to leading, even though he is capable of leading when he has to. I am not sure about Davos, however - he did become a captain of his own ship, after all.

In other words sometimes you have to do what's right and sometimes you must pick what's honorable. There are no clear cut rules. The best you can do is realize that whatever choice you make is one you will have to live with for the rest of your life so make the one that you think you can live with.

Which is why there is something to bodyguards not normally being expected or encouraged to shoulder this burden. Because, really, politics are complicated and dirty and in a medieval-like world could be bloody too. Kings have to do distasteful things and things that their bodyguards may disagree with - so where can one draw the line? Not beingable to count on one's bodyguards would only foster paranoia and make a ruler worse. There is no simple answer.

He is holding Dany's honor in his hands. The choice to betray that honor is not his. Would Barristan choose the more "intelligent" dishonorable act if it were his own honor at stake? I'm inclined to think no but I think he would at least internally ponder it.

I don't know. IMHO, Barristan's devotion to Dany and resulting need to protect her works actually led him to make much greyer choices than he would have done for himself. But yes, he wouldn't betray her honor - as he sees it, anyway.

About Barry and the Targ kids: Who the hell is he kidding? This thought really cemented my hatred for him- He's completely delusional. The idea that somehow he would draw the line at killing children is very questionable. He's served Aerys, he served in the KG with Jaime Lannister, he stood right there in court when I'm sure Tywin's banner men Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch were right next to him...The idea that somehow he'd have to be separated from Robert after this is laughable to me.

What I find interesting and strange here is that he thinks about killing Robert, rather than Tywin, the actual murderer. It is also rather perplexing how neutral his thoughts about Tywin are, when he recalls Duskendale. Maybe he is saving it all for when Tyrion shows up? I hope so.

Also, I doubt that Barristan was delusional. As we saw in his chapters, he has his depths. It is not stated explicitly, but I have a feeling that he didn't yet swear to Robert when presentation of the bodies took place. So, while before and after his vows shackled him, he had a window of freedom there. OTOH, he was too badly wounded to make use of it and then... he just opted to going back into service.

I still think it's a real shame that Dany hasn't had "the talk" with Barry about her father and Westerosi history, and I blame Barry more than Dany for his patronizing worship of her and inability to tell her like it is.

Yes, indeed, it is his fault - but he didn't even necessarily have to speak about Aerys just yet, particularly given how devastating even the little information he gave was to Dany's self-confidence. But talking about Westerosi history and/or the valuable insights we now know he had about many things in Meeren should have been essential, as well as his sworn duty. I don't recall reading any of his rationalizations about this dereliction, though - which is a pity, since it cries for an explanation.

For the first time Barristan is in a position where he has to choose instead of blindly follow the moral guidance of his sworn liege and he is choosing the right thing regarding the children even though killing these children hostages in Westeros is expected.

But Barristan _is_ following moral guidance of his liege-lord in this case - Dany has stated repeatedly that she would never execute the children, no matter what is expected.

It is his other actions that could be said to deviate from her stated wishes - but he could (and does) argue with himself that situation has changed enough that Dany would have also done some of these things, to protect her freedmen/the city.

"I may also be overly partial to Barry here because the type of reflection he engages in here is exactly what I wanted to see from Dany all along in her learning to lead experience in Meereen."

Ditto. Of course, Barristan has a lot of intriguing Westerosi history to recollect during his reflection, while Dany would have had to fall on Essosi/Meerenese resources entirely - which is IMHO the main reasons why GRRM went with Barristan, IMHO.

Hizdahr is seated on the throne, but it's Reznak who is actually dealing with the petitioners and the Yunkish, not Hizdahr---Hizdahr is basically just sitting there quietly up until the head is thrown on the floor (and even then, Reznak is the one broaching issues of state (the other hostages, for example), not Hizdahr).

Oh, very interesting. So maybe Reznak is the Harpy, after all? Is he a Loraq too, or could it be that he has separate interests and maybe also separate secret agreements with the besiegers? Because Hizdahr seemed to be more wary of the besiegers than previously, and it seemed to me that the Green Grace was too clever to think that they'd have the best interests of Meerenese elite in mind, but the Harpy doesn't seem to care.

And as Tze noted, Reznak vanishes once Barristan takes over, which makes him even more suspicious.

"Barristan opposes killing the hostages in theory"

Does he? I thought that he was opposed to killing child-hostages. It comes down to Tywin's maxime of "don't make a threat that you aren't ready to follow through". IMHO, both Dany and Barristan would have been prepared to execute adult hostages if situation required it - as they should be, in their ruthless world.

"So were some children worth more to him than others?"

Of course. As was the case with Ned, too. He didn't break up with Robert for the murder of Mycah, after, all, nor did he move against the Lannisters because of it. In their world, some people are worth more than others, including children, it is just a sad fact.

"Barristan apparently likes torturing himself over his failures as well as his successes; had he failed at Duskendale but succeeded in the Tourney of Harrenhal, he thinks events might have unfolded rather differently. I can see the logic in the former, but the latter?"

IMHO, he seems to think that crowning of Lyanna critically affected her willingness to run off with Rhaegar, which is probably not exactly true, but then, he has no way to know about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As far as Barristan knows that was Rhaegar's one chance to make a major impression on Lyanna, so it follows that defeating Rhaegarwould have derailed the fateful love affair.

"Dany took hostages because she couldn't control the nobility, she married Hizdahr because he supposedly could control the nobility, so why does Hizdahr need hostages against the nobility again?"

Yes, an interesting question.

"the fact that the Shavepate apparently sees Daario as a threat to Dany's reign could speak volumes about how Daario is viewed in Meereen."

Well, honestly, Daario is a foreign sell-sword. It is not a surprise that he is seen negatively and all the more so when he might be a prospective consort of a ruler.

Removing the seats of power and installing a table where all sit equally is a very wise symbolic choice. Bringing the pit fighters in may be risky but it would also be risky to spurn them and leave them open to another's offer.

Yes indeed. And didn't Barristan also let everybody speak their minds before weighing in? All those years in KL, observing various Small Council sessions, finally make themselves felt. Also, it is a testimony re: how far all these freedmen came, that they can now sit in a council and intelligently discuss a plan of action.

Dany's stalling tactics are paying off - should she leave immediately after the Battle of Meeren, there is a chance that Meeren won't follow in the foot-steps of Astapor, since there is already much more structure among the freedmen and cooperation with low-ranking Meerenese and Kandaq.

Of course, I think that R'llorists are going to completely re-draw the societies in the Free Cities and the Slaver's Bay soon anyway, so...

"The chorus of objections continue until Barristan is challenged

This ends all the resistance and objections to his attempts at peaceful resolution and unifies everyone in the room. He unifies the council with Dany's words."

Yes, Barristan can be very decisive - he is not hampered by fears of madness/monstrosity like Dany and he actually has seen severalrulers and how they did things, unlike her.

OTOH, as we have seen, there are already quite damaging rumors about Dany being faithless and treacherous and despite all Barristan's care, this will only add to them. Can't be helped, alas...

"His choice to offer Pentos to the Tattered Prince through the freed Dornishmen shows how far he has come since Dany approached him about getting sellswords to switch sides."

Yes, indeed. Barristan let Dany down hugely, as an adviser. But this also shows how much more practical he can be, once he is on the roll, than, say, Ned.

"Is Barristan actually blaming followers for blindly following orders? If so this is quite an evolution. It may just be that trying to kidnap dragons is so foolish even he can't justify it but it is a hopeful sign for his growing understanding of honor."

Well, I don't know. Kidnapping dragons may have been massively risky... but OTOH, those who don't take risks don't win. If Quentin had been more lucky, if he had inherited whatever makes it possible for Targs to bond with dragons, he might have succeeded.

Of course, letting the dragons out was a massive disaster from a rational PoV, although I suspect that it would turn out to defenders' advantage.

"What exactly is the Green Graces agenda? She is crying here while meeting with Barristan and it is probably not an act."

Well, it may be, but I somehow think that she realizes that open warfare would be bad for Meerenese elite - one way or another. IMHO, she saw that the besiegers weren't quite as friendly to the slaver nobility as they seemed. Which makes me wonder if she is the Harpy or if it is Reznak. It should have been obvious to an intelligent observer that the terror tactics that made Dany cave won't work with Barristan and that escalating them could lead to retaliation from the freedmen/Skahaz.

Barristan states "It is better to die with honor than to live without it."

Compare this to the epilogue of ADwD when Kevan thinks Better to live shamed than die proud.

Well, I dunno. Kevan was trying to salve his consience there - I am not certain that he would have chosen this for himself.

Lannisters have proven themselves rather flexible, yes... but I am not sure that it was a philosophy shared by Tywin. He did a lot of risky things for the sake of the Lannister honor (which he understood differently than Barristan or Ned, to be sure) and pride.

Tyrion chooses a highly risky trial by combat against Gregor instead of joining NW and going down in history as a kingslayer and a kinslayer and he thinks to himself that Tywin would have done the same i.e. "there is too much of you in me to go quietly", etc. Also "live a lion, die a lion", etc. Of course, Tyrion did chose to knuckle down and live when push came to shove, but that's after the option of "dying with honor" was taken away from him anyway.

Also, Barristan has it relatively easy, since he has only himself and his sovereign to think of.

"Barristan is now trying to mediate from the middle ground between the two diverging philosophies, and reach a solution that aspects of both: surviving with honor."

A monumental task indeed. Let's hope that he'll tutor Dany in it too, for a change, should he succeed.

P.S. Didn't know there was a limit on block quotes - had to replace some with cursive.

[Lyanna Stark]

Like Maia, I am hopelessly behind. I have been trying to catch up today so here is a comment on a slightly older post in the last thread, also regarding Barristan and what Jon and Dany built, despite it all:

Barristan's chapters show that Dany's despair and resignation were not quite appropriate. She did achieve a lasting enough change that even with her out of the picture, her opponents can't immediately undo her reforms, however imperfect they were. In fact, Hizdahr and his puppeteers seem pretty much at impasse. The forces outside aren't as friendly to them as they seemed, predictably enough. The time Dany's bought for her freedmen allowed them to gain enough strength that they have organized themselves into rather formidable forces, which allow Barristan to take over. This ties back into Dany's isolation and lack of method (and later, lack of desire, due to depression), to gauge the mood of her subjects.

This is a very important point, I think, since a lot of the initial criticism levelled at Dany was that she achieved nothing in Meereen, but as we can see here, she has achieved something. That is also despite being quite down in the dumps about her situation herself. Barristan and the Shavepate are able to depose Hizdahr, they are able to make plans, they are able to ally with the Unsullied. Sure, the Harpies are still out there, but the power Dany stood for is still there and still holding, even if it's not perfect it is functioning, after a fashion, even in this time of crisis.

In this I think Dany and Jon share a lot. Despite how they are increasingly frustrated with their advisers and their situation, and despite getting more and more depressed and lonely they have both managed to create a legacy that seems to be a lasting one. In this, they are quite successful as leaders and as leaders heralding change, both of them. Even though Dany is doing more flip-floping and doesn't always understand the consequences of all her actions, like for instance the torturing of suspects, their basic premise for ruling is also the same: to be a good people and make people survive and have at least a decent chance at life. Both Dany and Jon go out of their way to try and help people who are of no use to them and may even not particularly like them or agree with them.

Their "failures" are also interesting since it illuminates something I keep harping on about in the Jaime and Sansa threads: that change is hard. It does not happen overnight, and it's an often painful process. In this case, Dany and Jon as agents for change pays a high price for it, with Jon even possibly losing his life and Dany at the very least losing her autonomy and basically selling herself as cattle.

What I really like too is that none of them are able to just wave a magic sword around (or the equivalent of a magic sword) and get people to automatically "see the light". It makes the magical and fantastical so much more realistic. And it breaks a lot of fantasy conventions where the heir or the hero with the magic sword automatically gets people to follow him/her.

Onwards to Barry, but continuing with change as a topic:

Speaking of Barristan, when I first read this, I thought how Ned misjudged him. When push came to shove, he proved far less rigid than Ned himself. He also hates to think for himself, but is able to do so.

Again I think it has to do with change. I think Winterfellian or Tagganaro mentioned earlier that Barristan was the last of Aerys seven (apart from Jaime) and that this was for a reason. I'm sort of inclined to agree on this, since we see from Jaime's POV that the old Kingsguard gets to represent the old ideals of the Kingsguard. The old, unyielding way of The White Bull and Ser Arthur Dayne, who obeyed without question. Barristan is older than Jaime, so was molded according to this ideal for longer, hence it will be harder for him to change.

We also see that Jaime himself has a hard time processing and accepting his killing of Aerys. Even if he thinks about it as his greatest deed, he still won't tell people about why he did it, and how he relates to what he did is very interesting since it's very much marked by complex feelings. On the one hand, it is his greatest deed, on the other hand, he seems to be ashamed of it to such a degree, or it affected him to such a degree that he only ever tells Brienne. Was it honourable? Or not? I actually don't think Jaime is completely decided on it, even if he says he is. On the one hand, Aerys was going to kill thousands, on the other hand, Jaime broke his vows and his duty, and it tainted him forever.

To continue on Barristan's change, I find it interesting to compare him, Jaime and Sandor: the three Kingsguards that are all seriously questioning what the Kingsguard is for and how to act within the Kingsguard institution. They are three extremely different people with three very different starting positions: Barristan is the rigid and honourable correct knight, Jaime is the flippant self-absorbed one who occasionally forgets to suppress the moral compass he actually has, and the Hound is a bitter nihilist who spits on knights, but still occasionally acts like one. All three of them somehow come to rebel against what we as readers also recognise as the failure of the Kingsguard as an institution. For the Hound it was the easiest, for Barristan probably the hardest. Jaime is trying to change it from within, but is restricted in his role. They do however all share questions, doubts and even outright rejections of what the Kingsguard stands and stood for. Barristan and Jaime struggle with Aerys and how they dealt with him and the death of Rhaegar's children, while the Hound had to deal with equally psychotic Joffrey. If you are sworn to protect the King and the King is batshit insane and doing morally repugnant things, then what should you do?

While I thought Barristan was nearly useless and sometimes almost harmful to Dany in her chapters, I actually quite like Barristan's last chapter. It's like the old man really finally decides to take the step from follower to leader and to think for himself. Barristan is "becoming his own dog" just like Sandor is, to a degree. And as always with change, it is a painful process. We see Barry doing a fair bit of agonising, but in the end, I think he deals with the coup and what comes after in a very competent manner. You might say that Barry has to temporarily step into the leadership role here, and take over as interim leader from Dany.

I can only deplore that Barry didn't reveal that part of his character earlier - he would have been far more useful to Dany if he did. That is not to say that he is a master politician, but Dany could have used an extra set of loyal eyes and mind, particularly once she felt that she could no longer trust her own instincts due to fear of her monster side/madness.

I completely agree with this, especially as we have noted Dany's severe lack of good advisers. Barry in this mode would have been a godsend. I wonder, however, if he will revert back to his old self and breath a sigh of relief when Dany comes back, or whether this change in modus operandi is permanent?

Interestingly, if Barry becomes a very useful adviser to Dany, and Tyrion and Jorah can join up with her, Dany may actually be in a position of having superior advisers to Jon, for the first time. Jon may be left with Bloodraven and Melisandre post "resurrection" and they both very much have their own agendas.

EDIT: Some clarification on the Kingsguard stuff added.

[Lummel]

I don't think any of us knew, Maia, that there is a limit on block quotes, but then I haven't seen anybody else try to use so many!

The really interesting thing about Barristan seem to be those odd blind spots, like you say, why would he be wroth at Robert but not Tywin? Why is he so retiscent with Daenerys when he's made clear that he was party to the private councils of kings?

[Tagganaro]

@ Winter's Lass, Welcome! Glad you have enjoyed the thread. Like you, the many opinions in the thread have helped me appreciate Dany's arch in Mereen a lot more than I did on my first read. Am curious to read about the interview you mention. I will look it up :).

I think you made a very interesting observation here:

In his conversation about love and duty Jon has with Maester Aemon Jon tells him: "The wildings call us crows". I can't remember any other south of the wall calling a member of the NW this way.

Another observation I noticed in parallel to Dany in this chapter:

Dragons and Giants

I think there are some interesting parallels between the Wun Wun losing control here with the circumstances regarding Dany’s dragons.

First, there is the deconstruction of the old fantasy trope. Much like Quentyn, Ser Patrek intended to battle with a monster to obtain a boon in return (glory/the princess) and died for his efforts. However am beginning to wonder if this giant turning violent isn’t somehow an expression of Jon’s repressed rage being released much like the rogue dragon’s are an expression of a part Dany’s personality also being released after being held captive. Before this scene it looks like Jon is on the verge of finally cracking, the same as Dany was in the pits. Also I found his “He did not want them (Bowen and his lot) very similar to Dany’s “they are his (Hizdahr’s) people. It looks like they are both done with people like Marsh and Hizdahr and the positions they are subjected to assume because of them so they declare their desire to free themselves from them. Jon by siding with the wildings and taking a stand against Bolton, Dany by dropping her floppy ears before going away in Drogon. The main difference was that while Dany got to fly away Jon was prevented to leave and had to stay and faced the consequences of his decisions, the good ones and the bad. Dany made it because she had one dragin still free while Jon had Ghost locked away in his cell.

Going back to the parallels between Giants and dragons, in some cultures the myth of the giants alludes to the existence of an immense and primary being from whose sacrifice creation arose. I find this interesting because we have yet another element associating Jon with a sacrifice required to bring life, much like the Corn King allusions. There is also the number of elements many of us associate with the AA myth.

This is...brilliant. Very interesting observation, I've never really thought about it like that.

To tease out this parallel a little more, it's interesting that Jon offers Othell Yarwyck Wun-Wun as a worker, and Othell turns him down, saying something like "No, I think Giants eat children." Which is of course, about the same exact problem Dany is having in Mereen with Drogon. Of course, this might be where the parallel ends a little bit..We get Jon mentioning how fond he's grown of Wun Wun, hearing his stories about his people and getting to know them better. This is the opposite of Dany and Drogon of course. Jon wants to use Wun Wun as an intermediary to connect people together, namely to treat with other Giants. Dany probably can't use Drogon in a similar way.

Furthermore, I'm not sure about this, but there's probably some serious similarities to be found in the way Wun Wun rips apart Ser Patreck and the way Drogon rips apart the would-be dragon slayer. Both instances, for all intents and purposes, represent the point beyond no return, where Jon and Dany have essentially moved on from their respective situations in ADWD.

[Lummel]

...Their "failures" are also interesting since it illuminates something I keep harping on about in the Jaime and Sansa threads: that change is hard. It does not happen overnight, and it's an often painful process. In this case, Dany and Jon as agents for change pays a high price for it, with Jon even possibly losing his life and Dany at the very least losing her autonomy and basically selling herself as cattle.

What I really like too is that none of them are able to just wave a magic sword around (or the equivalent of a magic sword) and get people to automatically "see the light". It makes the magical and fantastical so much more realistic. And it breaks a lot of fantasy conventions where the heir or the hero with the magic sword automatically gets people to follow him/her.

...

Interestingly, if Barry becomes a very useful adviser to Dany, and Tyrion and Jorah can join up with her, Dany may actually be in a position of having superior advisers to Jon, for the first time. Jon may be left with Bloodraven and Melisandre post "resurrection" and they both very much have their own agendas.

I agree on the change is hard but I think this is a point were GRRM runs, potentially, into problems by dealing with the topic in a realistic way within the confines of of a genre novel. Gritty back stabbing politics is one thing, even violating the true pure northman mythos is forgivable but the nuts and bolts of change in society seem to have been too much for some readers.

But for us I think it makes a very interesting angle to investigate, rather like leadership, which I feel GRRM has tackled in a realistic way. I didn't doubt reading and rereading Danerys and Jon that they were in the tar pit struggling to do the right thing and to find their path.

The difficulty is will GRRM be able to sell us change at some later point in his series now that he has been dealing with it in a realistic way. He's established that it is hard, difficult and slow to change things in his world. The risk is that any change in westeros that is brought about could fail to convince us, or potentially that we will leave westeros in its current mess at the end of the series but with the possibility of change in the air.

Anyroad that's by the by. More to the point Lyanna, you think that Barristan, Tyrion and Jorah don't have their own agendas? :) I never suspected you of such innocence ;)