Jump to content

Rereading Tyrion


Lummel

Recommended Posts

Rereading Tyrion

Lets start on a journey. A long journey from Winterfell to the Wall to Kings Landing where we will pause before crossing the narrow seas and journeying down through ancient lands once ruled over by Valyria and over the sea once more to Slavers Bay.

Lets go on a journey round a popular and controversial character, witty and arrogant, an outsider and a member of the establishment, one of the leading figures in Westeros who is cast down to become one of the most despised.

Your guides as we make our way though the 47 Tyrion chapters (9 AGOT, 15 ACOK, 11 ASOS & 12 ADWD) at about two chapter posts per week will be Butterbumps!, Ragnorak and myself. We aim to reread (in order), appreciate, analyse and be critical. Not to whitewash or tar and feather him, rather to understand what he's about and his part in ASOIAF. There are no prizes in this thread for being the fiercest champion of the view that Tyrion is either a saint or a devil. Those who would true pilgrims be should be open to the text and what we can learn from each other in discussion.

If you will wander with us we ask that you:

Don't analyse future chapters. References to future events are fine but otherwise stick with the current or past chapters.

Don't engage in snappy back and forth sniping with someone you disagree with – it's boring for everyone else and spoils the thread. State your opinion, give your evidence and agree to differ.

Please do:

Compare and contrast with other POVs. GRRM is fond of creating parallel scenes and role reversals.

Show the support in the text for your views.

After some head scratching about what Tyrion is about we came up with a few themes that we will be looking out for in the Tyrion chapters: family, fathers and sons, loyalty, the outsider, loyalty v morality, status and identity, public faces and inner-self and power. As we go we will see if any of these are useful lenses for looking at him.

In terms of how we will run the threads the plan is that we will post chapters in order of me, Ragnorak and then Butterbumps! We aim to have a round up at the end of each book to see what general points we can pull out about Tyrion's arc and to help us focus on his development through the series to date.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tyrion I

...a little bit of context

Tyrion is the penultimate POV to be introduced, only Sansa comes later. The other AGOT POVs are The Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Arya and Bran so this is our first non-Stark in Westeros. It's worth bearing in mind that this set up leads us to think of Tyrion as 'one of the good guys' to start with. Also he is one of only three adult POVs and he's there to give us a more adult perspective.

Ok in story terms we've had our ancient horror north of the Wall in the prologue, the ominous discovery of the Direwolves, the arrival of the King with an offer that can't be refused, the warning of a murderous Lannister plot from Lysa and the first shock of the story as Bran is tossed to the ground by Jaime Lannister. In short we are on board with the Starks and already know that grave and terrible threats are a foot against them.

We've seen the Lannisters, fancy, flashy types who contrast with the austere and tough Starks. Tyrion has already popped into Jon's life with words of advice, which in comparison to the bloated figure of King Bob make Jon think that he stands “as tall as a king”. Now we get to meet this intriguing figure...

Overview

Tyrion is introduced to us as a reader, alert, who seemingly has read through the night. He leaves the library pausing in the yard to slap Joffrey and tell him to make the right noises to The Ned and Catelyn. Joffrey runs off aweeping on a bright summers day. We'll miss the next Joffrey drama down on the Trident though.

Then we meet Sandor Clegane who comes across as brutish and pandering to the blood thirsty tastes of Joffrey.

Tyrion has a quiet family breakfast with his siblings, nephew Tommen and niece Myrcella who are sweeter and kindler than their brother but talks crudely causing Cersei to take her children away. We watch Tyrion watching his siblings' reaction to the news that Bran will live. Clearly he has a fair idea of what actually happened.

Observations

  • Tyrion is, according to expert calculations, about 26 when the story opens.
  • Septon Chayle seems like a young man to Tyrion – I've always had the idea in my head from ACOK that he was at least middle aged, odd the things you can miss in the text.
  • “Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities” - as indeed we shall see.
  • Cersei seems wary of Tyrion, watching him and picking up on his words quickly.
  • Tyrion already appears to have a poor relationship with Joffrey and Sandor and a good one with Myrcella and Tommen

Analysis

Tyrion the sympathetic

So what do we have? A reader, an intelligent and wide ranging reader no less, a dwarf but unafraid to beard an angry armoured man, able to deliver a quick put down to the unsympathetic Joffrey and a couple of slaps to the face despite knowing that this boy will one day be king and he had a terrible childhood! He could hardy be presented to us in a more sympathetic manner.

Tyrion the Lannister

The flip side to this is of course Tyrion the Lannister. He's arrogant, entitled and more concerned with his own pleasures than with other people. I wonder if the Septon has to sit up and eventually fall asleep over a book because he's the librarian and has to be on hand in case Tyrion needs a new book? And what's with slapping the crown prince? Clegane warns him that the boy won't forget. What does Tyrion imagine that will happen once their power status is reversed?

”What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world.”
apart from the shades of the young Aeron Greyjoy who talks like that in front of young children as sweet as Tommen and Myrcella?

“Why, Jaime, my sweet brother...you wound me. You know how much I love my family.” I think for Tyrion to be aware of his siblings...er...relationship, is for him fair game, but it's all in the family. Not something he looks to take outside his family circle. He won't bet against his kin and for some time to come their interests are his interests. He is Lannister through and through.

with thanks to Butterbumps! and Ragnorak, some of whose ideas I have stolen mercilessly for this post hehe. The bad ones are all my own though...

And next time Ragnorak will be bringing you Tyrion II...

ETA - if you are reading along and don't have a marked or tabbed copy of the books there's a handy chapter guide here that gives the starting page numbers of the chapters. I'm using a very yellowed UK paperback so for me this chapter starts on page 86.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't been part of a re-read so far, I hope I'm not writing off topic.

The first we see about Tyrion is his shivering because of a wolf's howl.

Through the series, Tyrion has a difficult relationship with direwolves: first, Ghost jumps on him and makes him fall on the ground, later Summer and Grey Wolf attack him.

I think that, at least at first, the direwolves reflect the owner's state of mind, so since the Starks (initially, at least) mistrust Tyrion, the wolves are not very nice to him, too.

It's not until much later in the book that the direwolves develop a foreshadowing ability, warning the owner about hidden dangers, but again, this could also be an expression of their subconscious: both Robb and Jon (and the reader, for all that matters) could see that there was a strange atmosphere, something not quite clear, but couldn't exactly tell what was wrong, or wouldn't recognize it. The direwolves vocalize what their owner can't really tell consciously.

Anyway, could the wolf howling in the very first line of Tyrion's first chapter be a symbol of his difficult relationship (as a Lannister) with the Stark? Or is it just a literary device to transition from Bran's chapter to Tyrion's?

Another important theme in Tyrion's storyline that we start experiencing in his first chapter is his dwarfism and what that means in Westeros.

The first person (except the half-asleep Chayle) that interacts with Tyrion is Sandor Clegane, that pretends that he didn't see him because he's short. Apparently this happens quite often ("The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer’s farce. Tyrion was used to it. “Down here.”") and Tyrion, on the surface, doesn't seem to be particularly offended and shakes it off quickly.

We see here, quite clearly, the contradictory situation with Tyrion's status: yes, he's a Lannister, so he can give orders to the Hound, a simple bannerman, and he can't harm him, but at the same time his status as a dwarf allow Clegane not to show him any respect.

Then, Tyrion proceeds to a hall where his siblings are having breakfast.

Another important thing we discover about Tyrion here is his relationship with them.

We also have the first and, until ASOS, most honest glimpse of Jaime's personality from a source that knows him very well: "There was very little that Jaime took seriously. Tyrion knew that about his brother, and forgave it. During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything."

We've just seen Jaime doing something really horrible (pushing a child out of a window) but here we see another side of him, the side that showed his little brother affection and respect.

Tyrion was willing to forgive him almost anything: I think there is some foreshadowing in this "almost".

Tyrion's relationship with Jaime is also very important later, to understand why he blindly trusted whatever his brother said.

Jaime, by the way, speaks very freely with Tyrion, mentioning grotesques that, according to him, are better off dead.

At a first read, I thought the the "evil" Jaime was being mean at Tyrion just like anyone else: but on the second read, after we've seen Jaime's POV and we know his relationship to his brother, I think it means that Jaime simply doesn't think that Tyrion is part of the grotesques he's talking about, so he doesn't think he should hold his tongue with him.

As to Cersei, we start seeing that she doesn't like Tyrion, but apparently Tyrion is not aware of how deep his sister hates him and fears him (we will learn about the valonqar prophecy much later): "His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born."

"Tyrion wondered what it would be like to have a twin, and decided that he would rather not know. Bad enough to face himself in a looking glass every day. Another him was a thought too dreadful to contemplate." --> will Tyrion's wish for a sibling more similar to him be somewhat fulfilled when he later meets Penny? He surely adopts an older brother kind of attitude with her.

Through Tyrion, we also see that he has a positive opinion of Tommen, while in other POVs (as Arya) he came across as quite dull, and of Myrcella, that Arya seemed to see as quite boring, like a more privileged version of Sansa.

At the end of the chapter, we also have a first foreshadowing of Tyrion's later betrayal of the Lannister family (or simply another sign of his being an outsider): “Tyrion, my sweet brother,” he said darkly, “there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And what's with slapping the crown prince? Clegane warns him that the boy won't forget. What does Tyrion imagine that will happen once their power status is reversed?

Yup, yup. Clegane offers free Joffrey handling lessons to Tyrion, as he does to Sansa much, much later in AGOT. Sansa listens because she has to, Tyrion doesn't because he underestimates Joffrey. Tyrion's opening salvo against Joffrey sets the tone for their antagonistic relationship in ACOK and ASOS, culminating in a murder for which Tyrion seems far too likely a suspect. This is another example of Tyrion's arrogance, early on; Tyrion brushes off Clegane's warning and continues to antagonize Joffrey in ACOK and even into ASOS, to his peril.

Tyrion was willing to forgive him almost anything: I think there is some foreshadowing in this "almost".

I'd certainly say so. The books really are packed with foreshadowing, even though a lot of it is 20/20 hindsight-type stuff ("Oh, of course, passage A meant that B, C, and D would happen, because we now know E, F, and G.")

Through Tyrion, we also see that he has a positive opinion of Tommen, while in other POVs (as Arya) he came across as quite dull, and of Myrcella, that Arya seemed to see as quite boring, like a more privileged version of Sansa.

Jon had a dim first impression of Myrcella as well (I think he thought of her as insipid), but that seems to be contradicted by one of the AFFC POVs, who notes her cleverness and other good qualities.

As for Tyrion and the direwolves, the biggest threat to his safety from the Starks he faces in AGOT is from a wolfless Stark (Catelyn). The direwolves don't seem to be flawless danger barometers, either; Lady reacted negatively to the Hound but had no problem with Joffrey, and of the two of them, who posed the threat? I suppose his trouble with the direwolves could foreshadow either the Stark/Lannister feud that was brewing, or Tyrion posing some future threat to House Stark in his own right.

"His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born."

The funny part is that their relationship deteriorates to the point where "faint distaste" seems positively benevolent.

Is this the last time in the series to date where all three Lannister siblings are sitting in the same room? They were all in King's Landing at the same time in ASOS after Tyrion's arrest, but I don't know if they were ever sitting together in the same room then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't been part of a re-read so far, I hope I'm not writing off topic...

Welcome then to your first one!

As to being on topic it's about sticking with the chapter and what comes out of the chapters, that might be a quote, an image, a theme, an idea, a parallel with another character, a reference (historical, cultural whatever). Beyond that discussing the character - where does the chapter fit in the character's story as a whole. Looking back is very good, anticipating what is coming, pointing out foreshadowing or things that will make sense in the light of future chapters is ok - but just don't spend posts spending most of the space discussing things that will happen in future chapters.

Tyrion as an outsider is a slippery subject. Definitely since he's a dwarf he isn't a knight, and since war and the ability to fight are important in Westeros (well amongst the upper classes anyway) that does put him socially on the outside. On the other hand in this chapter we see he has an affectionate relationship with Jaime, Cersei expects and finds it natural to assume that he will travel with them back south, Sandor's jibe is old and familiar - so Tyrion clearly spends plenty of time around Joffrey and his Dog. Tyrion is clearly part of the family and interacts freely with them all.

Yup, yup. Clegane offers free Joffrey handling lessons to Tyrion, as he does to Sansa much, much later in AGOT. Sansa listens because she has to, Tyrion doesn't because he underestimates Joffrey. Tyrion's opening salvo against Joffrey sets the tone for their antagonistic relationship in ACOK and ASOS...

I don't think this is a question that we can answer, but how does Tyrion see his future at this stage? Joffrey is shown to be unsympathetic and about as welcome as dog mess on your shoe from the start, but the story tells us that he is crown prince and will one day be King. Tyrion seems pretty fearless in dealing with him which is strange, doesn't the quick witted well read man realise that one day he will be at his mercy?

Of course if Tyrion is confident that he will eventually inherit Casterly Rock then of course he's going to be perfectly safe from Joffrey who will have to treat him carefully, on the other hand if he believes that he will be passed over in favour of Tommen and will be dependant on the good will of nephew Tommen or Uncle Kevan for his beer and bread then he's potentially at risk from the future king's displeasure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course if Tyrion is confident that he will eventually inherit Casterly Rock then of course he's going to be perfectly safe from Joffrey who will have to treat him carefully, on the other hand if he believes that he will be passed over in favour of Tommen and will be dependant on the good will of nephew Tommen or Uncle Kevan for his beer and bread then he's potentially at risk from the future king's displeasure.

TBH, I don't think Tyrion was ever confident that he will inherit the Rock:

"I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. Eighteen years since Jaime joined the Kingsguard, and I never once raised the issue. I must have known. I must always have known." (ASOS)

I think that he believes that Joffrey will eventually come to his senses and understand that his were good advices (from Tyrion's point of view he's just a boy, and he comes from Tywin's "parenting school". He was raised through his "sharp lessons" and probably believes that Joffrey won't bear him any grudge, because, compared to what he received, a slap is an absolutely minor offense).

I think he also confides in Westeros's condemnation of "kinslaying" so he believes that Joffrey would never cause his own uncle any harm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think this is a question that we can answer, but how does Tyrion see his future at this stage? Joffrey is shown to be unsympathetic and about as welcome as dog mess on your shoe from the start, but the story tells us that he is crown prince and will one day be King. Tyrion seems pretty fearless in dealing with him which is strange, doesn't the quick witted well read man realise that one day he will be at his mercy?

As little self-control as Tyrion has when it comes to guarding his tongue despite the consequences of failing to do so, he has less when it comes to Joffrey's more outrageous behaviour. Maybe on some level he knows better, but this is the first instance of Tyrion impulsively lashing out at Joffrey in response to Joffrey's statements/behaviour. It will continue and it will get worse, even when the dangers go from theoretical (Joffrey is the crown prince) to actual (Joffrey is king): chewing out Joffrey viciously in ACOK over Sansa's chastisement (which winds up as evidence against him in his trial in ASOS), assaulting Joffrey physically after the riot (proof of the ill will between Joffrey and himself), threatening to geld Joffrey in ASOS (also in public), and so on.

Of course if Tyrion is confident that he will eventually inherit Casterly Rock then of course he's going to be perfectly safe from Joffrey who will have to treat him carefully, on the other hand if he believes that he will be passed over in favour of Tommen and will be dependant on the good will of nephew Tommen or Uncle Kevan for his beer and bread then he's potentially at risk from the future king's displeasure.

Tyrion often thinks this far ahead, but I don't see that in this bit with Joffrey and the Hound. I doubt he would have slapped Joffrey if Joffrey hadn't been so insufferable about the wailing of women and so forth (not that he deserved to be slapped, but I don't think Tyrion went into that conversation thinking he would end up striking his nephew). It didn't seem like premeditated "correction" or "discipline"; it seemed like him lashing out without thinking about the consequences...which will also happen again, a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course if Tyrion is confident that he will eventually inherit Casterly Rock then of course he's going to be perfectly safe from Joffrey who will have to treat him carefully, on the other hand if he believes that he will be passed over in favour of Tommen and will be dependant on the good will of nephew Tommen or Uncle Kevan for his beer and bread then he's potentially at risk from the future king's displeasure.

Another example of his overconfidence, or arrogance if you prefer. Joffrey clearly does not understand that his power derives from from his bannermen and is dependent on his upholding of his end of the feudal contract any more than Aerys did. Tyrion really should have known his nephew better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...I think that he believes that Joffrey will eventually come to his senses and understand that his were good advices (from Tyrion's point of view he's just a boy, and he comes from Tywin's "parenting school". He was raised through his "sharp lessons" and probably believes that Joffrey won't bear him any grudge, because, compared to what he received, a slap is an absolutely minor offense)...

good point, I hear that from time to time from people ("I was slapped/hit/smacked as a child and it never did me no harm..."), it's interesting then that he's repeating lessons learnt from "the terrible long years of his childhood" on the next generation. But then Westeros is a tough place I suppose.

As little self-control as Tyrion has when it comes to guarding his tongue despite the consequences of failing to do so, he has less when it comes to Joffrey's more outrageous behaviour. Maybe on some level he knows better, but this is the first instance of Tyrion impulsively lashing out at Joffrey in response to Joffrey's statements/behaviour...

Well we don't, at this stage know the backstory to their relationships. This is the first time that we meet these people, presumably what we see is fairly normal for them, even if Tyrion hasn't hit Joffrey before there's no sense from Tyrion's POV of having any difficulty with the idea of hitting people to back up your words.

Another example of his overconfidence, or arrogance if you prefer. Joffrey clearly does not understand that his power derives from from his bannermen and is dependent on his upholding of his end of the feudal contract any more than Aerys did. Tyrion really should have known his nephew better.

Well yes, for sure. We can look at that moment and see that Joffrey hasn't been trained to be a future king, he's got no concept of needing to be seen as a good lord, some one who cares about their bannermen and supporters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well yes, for sure. We can look at that moment and see that Joffrey hasn't been trained to be a future king, he's got no concept of needing to be seen as a good lord, some one who cares about their bannermen and supporters.

I think that perhaps everyone thought they had more time.

Nobody expected Robert to die relatively young and that Joffrey will have to take responsibilities so soon.

Through the first book, Joffrey is seen mainly as a child by everyone and even later in ASOS, Tyrion only worries about the time in which he will be King without a regent.

Everyone expects him to act pretty much like Tommen (even Cersei is convinced that he will let Ned take the black and won't take his own initiatives) and those who are optimists hope that he will gain more wisdom with age.

In a way, I think that almost everyone (except the Tyrells) underestimated Joffrey's insanity because of his young age.

But then Westeros is a tough place I suppose.

It sure is! :(

Apparently in Westeros corporal punishments to children are considered absolutely normal, and a slap is quite mild, compared to Yoren's punishment to Arya, or Tommen's whipping "by proxy".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to go too much ahead, but is Tyrion handling Joffrey so different from Tywin handling Joffrey in ASoS, after the famous "King should act boldly." statement? Joffrey is nothing without his Lannister family and at this point Tyrion feels secure in being senior member of said family, albeit not the most loved one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What struck me on my rereads of this chapter is that even though Tyrion clearly suspects Jaime is responsible for Bran's fall, he doesn't think less of him because of this and never feels the least bit guilty that he's keeping this a secret and allowing Jaime to get away with such a vile act. He doesn't even come up with a justification of any kind for this silence, neither here nor later IIRC. This for me sets the tone for his chapters and I can't really see him in sympathetic light even when he later on in AGOT perform acts of kindness.

Slapping Joffrey was stupid. He is clearly the type of kid likely to remember such things and pay back for them later. Even if Robert's reign had lasted much longer than it did, a crown prince of age has plenty of ways to create serious trouble for Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great idea! In my late lamented eaten post on "Learning to Lead" I actually mentioned that it is a pity that Tyrion's trajectory as a leader wasn't used as another parallel, because, while older than Jon and Dany, he too was a novice at it and experienced significant developement in that area.

Lummel:

P.S. For whatever reason, the board wouldn't let me use block quotes for this quotation.

Umm... 24 or 25, actually.

Personally, I always thought that he was 23-24 because the events at the beginning of AGoT take place 14, going on 15 years after the sack of KL, when Jaime was 17 and Tyrion is 8-9 years younger than his siblings. Tyrion also received his mare as a gift for his 23rd birthday, which, I felt, happened not long before his heading north with the royal progress.

Not to disparage the very thorough calculations, but IMHO a lot of used data points were not precise, but generalizations/mis-rememberings of various characters.

Tyrion seems pretty fearless in dealing with him which is strange, doesn't the quick witted well read man realise that one day he will be at his mercy?

As repeatedly pointed out by various characters, despite all his intelligence and subtlety, Tyrion is also a hothead, who often acts on the spur of a moment. His socialization and the need to constantly defend himself and not give any ground in order to win at least a measure of respect probably exacerbated this tendency. "Wanting to be Jaime" didn't help either.

Of course if Tyrion is confident that he will eventually inherit Casterly Rock then of course he's going to be perfectly safe from Joffrey who will have to treat him carefully, on the other hand if he believes that he will be passed over in favour of Tommen and will be dependant on the good will of nephew Tommen or Uncle Kevan for his beer and bread then he's potentially at risk from the future king's displeasure.

IMHO, Tyrion probably thought that it was going to be either Jaime - yes, the KG complication, but everybody else seemed convinced that Jaime would inherit regardless - including Robert and Ned, or himself. In either case, he would have been perfectly safe from Joffrey.

And even if it was Kevan - apart from Cersei and Joff Lannisters seem to usually present a united front and defend their own.

He was raised through his "sharp lessons" and probably believes that Joffrey won't bear him any grudge, because, compared to what he received, a slap is an absolutely minor offense).

Interestingly enough, we had no indication that Tywin was ever physically violent towards his children. He rather seemed to be into psychological pressure/subjugation/abuse, manipulation, mockery, etc. But all of his children seem to resort to slapping readily enough - I wonder who they learned it from?

I think he also confides in Westeros's condemnation of "kinslaying" so he believes that Joffrey would never cause his own uncle any harm.

Hm... Maybe. Not to get ahead of events, but Tyrion thinks it likely that his siblings might do Lancel in at some future point. For a much stronger reason that slapping/belittling, certainly, but still...

IMHO, Tyrion is aware that, unlike the rest of the Lannisters, his siblings are prepared to throw all the most sacred traditions of Westeros overboard should they see the need - here he doesn't bat an eye at implied flagrant breach of guest-right, for instance.

I don't want to go too much ahead, but is Tyrion handling Joffrey so different from Tywin handling Joffrey in ASoS, after the famous "King should act boldly." statement? Joffrey is nothing without his Lannister family and at this point Tyrion feels secure in being senior member of said family, albeit not the most loved one.

Tywin didn't attack Joff physically, nor did he make any threats - he just sent him to bed. But we are getting ahead of the re-read, here. But yes, Joff fails to realize his utter dependance on the rest of House Lannister to the end. As does Cersei, really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And even if it was Kevan - apart from Cersei and Joff Lannisters seem to usually present a united front and defend their own.

Agreed. The Lannisters are like a lot of dysfunctional families in that respect: "No one is allowed to abuse us except each other."

Personally, I always thought that he was 23-24 because the events at the beginning of AGoT take place 14, going on 15 years after the sack of KL, when Jaime was 17 and Tyrion is 8-9 years younger than his siblings. Tyrion also received his mare as a gift for his 23rd birthday, which, I felt, happened not long before his heading north with the royal progress.

It's easy for me to forget that Tyrion is only in his mid-twenties (I thought he was 25 in AGOT, so I'm going to assume that's how old he was), and therefore on the very young side as far as the "adult" characters go. Just reading the books without thinking about it too much, and even knowing that people seem to grow up more quickly in Westeros than they do in modern-day civilization (meaning a Westeros 25 is probably equivalent to a Modern Day 35) and that Westeros doesn't have any notion of "adolescence," really, Tyrion doesn't sound young to me, at all. He's the youngest of the first generation POVs except for Brienne (Cersei, Jaime, Ned, Catelyn, etc.) and other major characters (Littlefinger, the Hound, etc.) by years (and years and years in some cases), but that's not apparent to me. When I was reading his chapters, his tone and mannerisms come off as way older than he is on paper (like a curmudgeonly old man trapped in a 25-year-old's body). So it starts to mess with my head when I realize that he's supposed to be (relatively) much younger than the Littlefingers and the Cats of the world. I keep having to remind myself of how young he's supposed to be, because I want to mentally add 10-15 years or so. (The TV series actors' ages--where the actors for Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion are all only a few years apart--were much more in line with my understanding of the characters...even if PD's age was irrelevant to casting decisions, since I understand there wasn't going to be an adaptation of the books unless he was on board to play Tyrion.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interestingly enough, we had no indication that Tywin was ever physically violent towards his children. He rather seemed to be into psychological pressure/subjugation/abuse, manipulation, mockery, etc. But all of his children seem to resort to slapping readily enough - I wonder who they learned it from?

Tywin doesn't seem to be physically violent in person but sure uses violence as a "pedagogical" mean (see Tysha).

Tyrion might have learned it from Cersei- most of his memories (and even meetings in ACOK) involving his sister end with him getting slapped and from Oberyn and Cersei's memories we know that she was physically violent towards Tyrion since his very early childhood.

She was the only feminine figure in his life during his childhood and he might have unwillingly taken her as an unloving mother-like figure (with all the psychological mess up that this involves).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...Lummel:

P.S. For whatever reason, the board wouldn't let me use block quotes for this quotation.

Umm... 24 or 25, actually.

in my defence 24 is about 26 :leaving: ! No my point is just to try and establish where he is in the scheme of things age-wise. If you tell me he's 24 I'm fine with that.

... everybody else seemed convinced that Jaime would inherit regardless - including Robert and Ned, or himself. In either case, he would have been perfectly safe from Joffrey.

And even if it was Kevan - apart from Cersei and Joff Lannisters seem to usually present a united front and defend their own.

...Tyrion is aware that, unlike the rest of the Lannisters, his siblings are prepared to throw all the most sacred traditions of Westeros overboard should they see the need - here he doesn't bat an eye at implied flagrant breach of guest-right, for instance...

What struck me on my rereads of this chapter is that even though Tyrion clearly suspects Jaime is responsible for Bran's fall, he doesn't think less of him because of this and never feels the least bit guilty that he's keeping this a secret and allowing Jaime to get away with such a vile act...

Agreed. The Lannisters are like a lot of dysfunctional families in that respect: "No one is allowed to abuse us except each other."...

Family is everything in Westeros. If you have a lineage, you stick together and you are powerful that way. If you fail to act as a unit and try to act as a bunch of individuals you end up weaker than your rivals in the game of thrones.

As I like to say Tyrion's moral compass points to Casterly Rock.

I suppose the strength of family feeling is why family connections (wife, children, lands) have to be forsworn in the Night's Watch, or why Maesters don't use family names.

It's a good warning, very early in the book, just how ruthless the consequences of family loyalty can be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, Lummel, BB and Ragnorak for beginning this reread thread.

First, if I may be so bold as to look backwards for a moment. It's extremely interesting that the first character to talk to Tyrion is Jon Snow. Both of them are a bit in their cups. Both are seeking sanctuary in the cool air outside the feast in the Great Hall. Tyrion calls to Jon, "Boy." Jon sees Tyrion "sitting on the ledge above the door. . . looking for all the world like a gargoyle." Tyrion has sought his refuge in a high place, above it all, looking down on the yard (and perhaps on the world). To Jon at first, he appears as a "grotesque," a monster formed of stone. When Tyrion expresses an interest in Ghost, Jon offers to help Tyrion down from his high place. Tyrion rejects Jon's help. Then, inexplicably and with great grace, Tyrion performs twists and turns and "sticks' his landing. Tryion is not what he seems.

From the exchange with Jon, we get a sense of what Tyrion looks like other than being a "dwarf." Tyrion's head is "oversized" and his eyes are "mismatched," as well as the above mentioned gymnastic skills.

Also, from Jon's POV, we get a glimpse of Tryion's personality. Tryion recongnizes Jon as a "Ned's bastard." It wounds Jon and Tyrion knows it and apologises for saying it. Then says it to Jon again, "You are the bastard. . . " Tryion does not suffer self-pity. He attempts to counsel Jon against self pity, reminding him to never forget who he is because the world will not permit it. Jon, stll awash in self pity tries to separate himself from any "kinship" with Tyrion. To which Tryrion replies that "all dwarves are bastards in their father's eyes." Jon's not having any of this. He states Tryion is "trueborn." In response to this, we learn more about what formed Tryion's personlity. His mother died giving birth to him. That's an intriguing and distrubing fact. And also, Tyrion's relationship with his father is strained because of this.

Finally, this little exchange with Jon, as our first introduction to Tryion turns any preconceived notions about Tyrion, "the Imp," upside down. As Tyrion saunters back inside the Hall, whistling, the open door sheds light upon Tryion's person. Jon sees that Tryion with the help of his shadow "stood as tall as a king." Tryion is a "little big man."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally, this little exchange with Jon, as our first introduction to Tryion turns any preconceived notions about Tyrion, "the Imp," upside down. As Tyrion saunters back inside the Hall, whistling, the open door sheds light upon Tryion's person. Jon sees that Tryion with the help of his shadow "stood as tall as a king." Tryion is a "little big man."

Excellent point, Blisscraft. This imagery is also repeated throughout the books. Aemon refers to Tyrion as a giant (and implies it's not a compliment, which is interesting). Varys talks about a small man casting a very large shadow in ACOK. And then of course there's Moqorro's vision of Tyrion among dragons, a small man casting a large shadow. All of it suggests an influential, powerful person, whose influence is not necessarily benevolent or might even be sinister (since we all know about shadows and ASOIAF). Jon's POV is the first glimpse of it. The use of "king" as a comparison instead of a giant is interesting, since it metaphorically links Tyrion's big shadow not to physical strength (which a "giant" comparison might), but rather to political power, and indeed, that's where Tyrion throws his weight around in ACOK (and possibly after ADWD).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...