SerMixalot Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Ok, been a Tolkien fan for many many years. Finally getting around to reading the Simarillion. My previous attempts seemed to founder on the heavy prose and names and such.But darned, this is one dark story.I was shocked when I got around to the Turin and Nienor. I mean killing one's best friend is one thing, but marrying and empregnating your sister!?!?! WOW.Ok perhaps not to today's sensibilities, but we are talking about Mr. Tolkien writing this stuff back in the 20's -50's or so IIRC.Ok, yes there have been such stories through history, maybe? perhaps the bible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brendan Moody Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Ok, yes there have been such stories through history, maybe? perhaps the bibleThis type of tragic incest has lots of parallels in world mythology: Arthur and Morgan le Fay, Oedipus and Jocasta, Sigmund and Signy, Kullervo and his sister. Tolkien mentioned the last three as influences on Turin:There is the Children of Húrin, the tragic tale of Túrin Turambar and his sister NÃniel – of which Túrin is the hero: a figure that might be said (by people who like that sort of thing, though it is not very useful) to be derived from elements in Sigurd the Volsung, Oedipus, and the Finnish Kullervo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 This is why, when people cite GRRM, Morgan and Abercrombie as being 'darker' than Tolkien, all it takes is a quick read of The Silmarillion to say, "Really?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naz Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 This is why, when people cite GRRM, Morgan and Abercrombie as being 'darker' than Tolkien, all it takes is a quick read of The Silmarillion to say, "Really?"Good point, but you have to admit that when most people are saying that, they're referring to LOTR. I wonder what the ratio is of people who have read only LoTR/Hobbit to those who have read those + any/all of Sil/UT/HoME. I'm guessing the ratio is very high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Quizboy Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 I always wonder if those people only saw the movies. Cause, The Scouring of the Shire. Not so happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentyn Baratheon Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The impeding doom of the Apocalypse of his precious Bible obviously taint his grand work. That and his view of a decadent, faithless, fallen what was glorious England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlivestark Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 How does it 'taint' his work exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentyn Baratheon Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Noldorim, once offending the Gods, are bound to fail against evil. And their whole race is anyway destined to dwell off the world anyway, and the world won't be that beautiful yada yada that it was before. Add atop of that, anything goes according the grand scheme of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tears of Lys Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The Silmarillion is filled with beautiful, tragic stories. I carry it on airplane flights to calm my nerves. The opening is so awesomely done, it nearly gives me religion - so much more inspiring than the Bible, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerMixalot Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 The "and then" gets sort of tiresome, and keeping track of erid this and erid that is difficult, but yes alot of great stories Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 The Silmarillion would make for some great movies. >_>But yeah, even LotR is by no means a bright and breezy book (even without The Scouring of the Shire). And while sure, it isn't as grim and gritty as Bakker and Abercrombie, it's (in tone at least) definitely sadder. In the unhappy sense, not the loser sense.The impeding doom of the Apocalypse of his precious Bible obviously taint his grand work.You make out like the entire Bible is about 'the impending doom of the Apocalypse'. And even Revelations, the only part really entirely dedicated to that, is in the end after all the plagues and suffering probably more hopeful than large parts of the Middle-Earth oeuvre.I think it's more fighting in WWI that paints his work with the melancholia it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Good point, but you have to admit that when most people are saying that, they're referring to LOTR.I actually think many people who label Tolkien as 'light' have only seen Jackson's film, rather than read the book (the film is lighter). LOTR features orcs flinging catapaulted heads, an attempted murder-suicide, the Dead Marshes, and has the hero come back a shell-shocked veteran (arguably a fate worse than death). Plus there's the Scouring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Oh yes, and The Sil is the best book ever written, dammit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Quizboy Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Its Revelation. There's no such thing as The Book of Revelations./petpeeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Quizboy Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Noldorim, once offending the Gods, are bound to fail against evil. And their whole race is anyway destined to dwell off the world anyway, and the world won't be that beautiful yada yada that it was before. Add atop of that, anything goes according the grand scheme of God.Not sure if I want to accuse of of never reading Tolkien, never reading the Bible, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronson Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 I read it many years ago and loved it, as much loved the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. I know im going to get an earful by saying this , but I would like to see this book adapted in some form as a film or perhaps a series of films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsun Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 A film class I took did like a 3 week unit on the catholicism present in tolkien's works. We didn't do much of the silmarillion, but the parts involving it were probably the most fun. Was an interesting class.That said, I enjoyed the Silmarillion when I read it, but it's not something I would reread all that soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Its Revelation. There's no such thing as The Book of Revelations.i usually go with the apocalypse of st. john, rather than some variant of revelation.not seeing what's so "dark" about the silmarillion. sure, the lamps get knocked out, but there's trees. they get cut down, but there's the jewels. they get stolen, but they're recovered. and then they're lost, but there's also the convenient astronomical thingies. sure, those thingies get destroyed in the dagor dagorath, but turin and eonwe and huan and whoever else win in the end, and get to fix the trees and bring back feanor and so on. see? happy ending, and at no extra cost!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronson Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 i usually go with the apocalypse of st. john, rather than some variant of revelation.not seeing what's so "dark" about the silmarillion. sure, the lamps get knoecked out, but there's trees. they get cut down, but there's the jewels. they get stolen, but they're recovered. and then they're lost, but there's also the convenient astronomical thingies. sure, those thingies get destroyed in the dagor dagorath, but turin and eonwe and huan and whoever else win in the end, and get to fix the trees and bring back feanor and so on. see? happy ending, and at no extra cost!.The rise and fall of Morgoth , The death of Fingolfin the destruction of Numinor through due to the manipulations Morgoth's lacky Sauron. The wars of the second age? Dark and apocalyptic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 oh, fingolfin had it coming, just for the goofy name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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