The Silmarillion-Very Dark Story

[The Marquis de Leech]

Good on Finrod and Finarfin for walking together for eternity as brothers under the trees of Eldamar...f

Finrod/Finarfin are son and father. :P

[Tongue Stuck to Wall]

Finrod/Finarfin are son and father. :P

What about my point, man? :laugh:

[sologdin]

tend to go with UT for canon stuff as it is writtten for the most part post-LOTR.

not seeing any need whatsoever to select a canonical variant of the story when multiple versions exist. the text can be multivoiced, and we need not be constrained to a monological reading. tolkien encourages variants, to the extent that multiple versions of history are presented in the narrative, such as implied by the refrain ("some have said..."; he has likewise declined to adopt an omniscient voice, e.g., regarding alatar & pallando:

whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not not known

(UT)

and compare with the different interpretation in the letters, which is not only not omniscient, but differs from the UT:

I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Numenorean range: missionaries to enemy-occupied lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

[naz]

As much as my rigid compartmental mind wants to think otherwise, I think solo's point is valid re: canon and multivoiced readings. This is, after all, meant to be a mythology. A unilaterally invented mythology, yes, but I think Tolkien would've been pleased by the multiple versions and interpretations of things, as this is exactly how most mythologies are received.

This, of course, conflicts with Tolkien's occasional grumbling (and his Estate's grumbling) about whether adaptations or interpretations of his works are "true" to the original. I think if the good Professor were alive today and if he complained at all about the movies, he'd obviously be free to do so, but we'd also be free to take him to task for being hypocritical about how a mythology, of all things - invented or otherwise - should be interpreted.

[Ser Lepus]

As much as my rigid compartmental mind wants to think otherwise, I think solo's point is valid re: canon and multivoiced readings. This is, after all, meant to be a mythology. A unilaterally invented mythology, yes, but I think Tolkien would've been pleased by the multiple versions and interpretations of things, as this is exactly how most mythologies are received.

This, of course, conflicts with Tolkien's occasional grumbling (and his Estate's grumbling) about whether adaptations or interpretations of his works are "true" to the original. I think if the good Professor were alive today and if he complained at all about the movies, he'd obviously be free to do so, but we'd also be free to take him to task for being hypocritical about how a mythology, of all things - invented or otherwise - should be interpreted.

Tolkien had a "platonic" view of literature. He thought there were a "perfect", exalted version of his stories, somewhat hidden within his head, and he needed to prune them until finding that perfection; that's the reason he disliked "lesser" versions of his work.

Tolkien knew, of course, of the many versions of legendary and mythical stories, but he thought there was a "perfect" version of those. That's the reason he thought he could create a mythos for Great Britain: If his stories were close enough to that "perfect" version of the mythic past of England, they were somewhat the real deal, even if he had made them himself.

I think one of the reasons he made so many versions is that he wanted to create something with a strong emotional content, while at the same time keeping it somewhate, naive, pure, above earthly dirtiness: For example, he was horrified by the concept of rape, and even said that elves couldn´t survive rape because he didn't want his elves to live "sullied" that way; he also had a lot of trouble with orcs, because he didn't want to even imagine how would be the life of their females and children, and his latest versions of orcs were asexual artificial beings...so he went in circles trying to create powerful stories while avoiding those nasty subjects.

[Brendan Moody]

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the general matter of Tolkien's opinions on "true" representation and anyway an interesting story, is this TLS article on Tolkien's correspondence with illustrator Mary Fairburn and his interest in her work as possible illustrations for The Lord of the Rings.

[The Marquis de Leech]

For example, he was horrified by the concept of rape, and even said that elves couldn´t survive rape because he didn't wanted his elves to live "sullied" that way;

Interestingly, in the early version of his stories, he had Eol rape Aredhel (well, just said 'forcibly take to wife,' but in Sil speak, that's rape). Later he amended it to say that Aredhel wasn't totally unwilling.

[Ser Lepus]

Interestingly, in the early version of his stories, he had Eol rape Aredhel (well, just said 'forcibly take to wife,' but in Sil speak, that's rape). Later he amended it to say that Aredhel wasn't totally unwilling.

In the latest version Eol used magic to make her get lost, and then he "rescued" her, took her to his home, and essentially used a mix of seduction, blackmail and threats to force her to be his wife.

We have to take into account that Tolkien was a victorian man, and he probably didn't thought much of marital rape (for a lot of time, once a woman was married, it was assumed it was natural for her husband to demand sex and her duty to provide it).

[The Marquis de Leech]

We have to take into account that Tolkien was a victorian man, and he probably didn't thought much of marital rape (for a lot of time, once a woman was married, it was assumed it was natural for her husband to demand sex and her duty to provide it).

Aldarion/Erendis, of course, flips this: it's the wife demanding sex, and the husband running away to sea.

Apart from early Eol, there's only one other explicit rape in Tolkien: a late writing where Morgoth rapes the maia in charge of the Sun. There are some attempted or implicit rapes though (Turin puts a stop to one during his time in the outlaws, and Morgoth was clearly thinking about raping Luthien when she danced before his throne, plus there's Celebrian's unspecified torment among the Orcs).

[Ser Lepus]

Aldarion/Erendis, of course, flips this: it's the wife demanding sex, and the husband running away to sea.

Apart from early Eol, there's only one other explicit rape in Tolkien: a late writing where Morgoth rapes the maia in charge of the Sun. There are some attempted or implicit rapes though (Turin puts a stop to one during his time in the outlaws, and Morgoth was clearly thinking about raping Luthien when she danced before his throne, plus there's Celebrian's unspecified torment among the Orcs).

I think the sun maia thing was quickly discarded. Tolkion was explicitly asked about the rape of Celebrian and he answered with his "raped elves die" theory (hence, if Celebrian was alive, she hadn't been raped); the idea lf a beautiful elven princess being raped by evil apemen was probably too much for him to handle (the Eol, Sauron and Morgoth thing could be sublimated into a mythical tragedy, but the orc abuse would be too much like an actual gang rape by thugs mixed by zoophilia).

[Tears of Lys]

Slightly off topic, but relevant to the general matter of Tolkien's opinions on "true" representation and anyway an interesting story, is this TLS article on Tolkien's correspondence with illustrator Mary Fairburn and his interest in her work as possible illustrations for The Lord of the Rings.

Pauline Baynes, whose artistic style Tolkien liked, did one of the few representations of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry I thought was pretty good. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dLSVgS5AxBI/SHG8aq325NI/AAAAAAAAJ-o/CIakbvcLebM/s400/TomBombadil_PBaynes.jpg

[Bronson]

I don't think the whole of silmarillion would turn out that great. Far too much opportunity to end up as very cheesy with the gods, lights and other things. On the other hand there a few of the stories would make excellent stand alone movies in the hands of the right director.

They could make it in a series of movies, 3 perhaps.

[Werthead]

Disagree there. Unless it's a typo or clear mistake, stuff published in Tolkien's own lifetime trumps stuff published by Christopher after his death.

This is open to interpretation. All of the 'story' material in Unfinished Tales was written by Tolkien himself in his own lifetime and was intended for eventual publication. That it was assembled by Christopher into a book subsequent to his death is irrelevant: Christopher Tolkien has never written any original Middle-earth material himself.

That said, the choices over material that CT chose to go into The Silmarillion is certainly up for debate, and CT himself has often said he fears he made some wrong decisions. For example, Tolkien was considering a significant renaming of the sons of Feanor and his brothers and some moving around of relationships, but CT did not discover this until after publishing The Silmarillion. There was also some other material he found in his father's notes whilst preparing The History series that he wishes he'd know about beforehand.

There's nothing wrong with each fan coming up with his or her own version of the stories based on the different versions (particularly Galadriel and Celeborn's backstory, which Tolkien had several different ideas about but never settled on a final structure), but certainly nothing in Unfinished Tales should be summarily dismissed because it was published later. Several of the essays in the book were things Tolkien was working on weeks or possibly even days before his death, and represet his final thoughts on those ideas before he passed away.

[sologdin]

no need to defer to the author's purported intention, i respectfully submit. if one variant must prevail, which allegation i continue to deny, we can assess the competing variants for logical consistency, aesthetic power, and setting coherence in order to elect a preference.

[naz]

no need to defer to the author's purported intention, i respectfully submit. if one variant must prevail, which allegation i continue to deny, we can assess the competing variants for logical consistency, aesthetic power, and setting coherence in order to elect a preference.

So you're saying we set up a Canon Committee and just vote on it? Us proles? Damn!

[The Marquis de Leech]

This is open to interpretation. All of the 'story' material in Unfinished Tales was written by Tolkien himself in his own lifetime and was intended for eventual publication. That it was assembled by Christopher into a book subsequent to his death is irrelevant: Christopher Tolkien has never written any original Middle-earth material himself.

Yes, but the point is that LOTR (and The Hobbit, and The Road Goes Ever On, and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil) were prepared by Tolkien for publication to the extent that he was happy to see them published and publicly distributed. Everything edited by Christopher, including Unfinished Tales, are essentially drafts. That is why I regard LOTR as the chief of the canon: it is both a finalised and public text.

(Along those lines, I prefer the Galadriel backstory in LOTR over that in UT, even though the UT one was written later).

That said, the choices over material that CT chose to go into The Silmarillion is certainly up for debate,

Well, yes. If Christopher had decided to include his father's later ideas about the Sun and Moon, the Sil would be a very different book (personally I'm pleased he didn't: I like the older version better).

Several of the essays in the book were things Tolkien was working on weeks or possibly even days before his death, and represet his final thoughts on those ideas before he passed away.

His final thoughts would have changed again had he lived to be 100. Again, published version vs drafts.

[jurble]

I always wondered what Ancalagon the Black's personality was like. Glaurung is this intelligent, malicious thing, but he ain't got no wings. Ancalagon is gigantic. I wonder if dragon intelligence is negatively correlated with size? The world may never know.

[Slurktan]

Disagree there. Unless it's a typo or clear mistake, stuff published in Tolkien's own lifetime trumps stuff published by Christopher after his death.

Fair enough. I just think there is far too much detail that is in UT (and various later bits in HoME) that is fascinating and isn't necessarily countered by anything in LOTR and so I choose to believe is canon. Things like: Andreth and Aegnor's doomed love, the youngest son of Feanor burned to death in the conflagration of the swan ships, Saruman finding isildur's remains, Boromir (and the Ringwraiths) only being able to cross at Tharbad on his way to Rivendell because the water was down due to the Watcher in the Water damming the Sirannon, Galadriel and Celeborn running the show in Eregion until Sauron's arrival, Glorfindel being the Glorfindel, the tomb of Elendil etc. etc.

[PetrusOctavianus]

anything goes according the grand scheme of God.

That's the one thing I really dislike about Tolkiens work.

Some things are just best not knowing. Knowing that Melkor and Sauron is doomed to failure kind of ruins the magic.

But fortunately there is no preaching in Tolkien's works.