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Alysanne, Jaehaerys I, Direwolves and a Bit of Barth


Dr. Pepper

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Something seemed to happen to creatures of magic in Westeros about 200 years before the start of the books. We know shortly thereafter the dragons died out. It would not suprise me to find that the last dragon born happened around the year 100 AL. My guess is we may find out that the Maesters may have concocted something.

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I can see your point on a few things. I don't understand, however, what Alysanne would have to do with the "missing" direwolves. By all accounts Alysanne was a good Queen and well loved by the realm. If she went around burning whole swathes of the Stark sigil, that wouldn't exactly be a "good" notion. I think it's more likely that they just happened at the same time through natural causes.

Sometimes things just happen independent of one another :)

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What makes me scratch my head is we seemingly have no wargs south of the wall when Aegon landed besides BR (who was a greenseer) until the Stark kids. Why was that? Did the direwolves disappear because wargs did? Or did wargs disappear because of the direwolves?

I've got the pet theory that a potential skinchanger needs a close emotional bond to his first vessel to develop his powers. Most likely before or during puberty. That's the case for all skinchangers with known development (Stark kids, Varamyr). In the Andal culture, these emotional bonds to animals were not tolerated and as it spreads northward, less and less potential skinchangers developed their powers.

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This is a very interesting theory. I can see the Targs being afraid of the connection that the Starks have with direwolves and setting out to do something about it. It happened in history before- in England they wiped out all of the big game in ancient times.

Targ-Stark showdown! 4 direwolves vs 3 dragons! Who will remain? Find out in 10 years! :D

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I'm not that a Targaryen purging of direwolves from the North would have had anything to do with wargs or the symbolic/political dimension.

The Targaryen power was well-established and Jaehaerys & Alysanne ruled long and were well-loved.

Let's consider the other decree they imposed on the North: They abolished the tradition of first night amongst the Northern nobles.

I think they were trying to clean up the North and do good for its people. The built the Kingsroad to facilitate travel. They abolished the First Night to protect the smallfolk from the nobles. The gave men and money and land to help the Night's Watch (protect the realm).

So perhaps the direwolf question is simply to protect the people from a pervasive menace and danger. The direwolf was a powerful symbol for the Starks because everyone was afraid of direwolves. ...And rightly so.

3 quotes, especially the 3rd:

Hullen:

"Direwolves loose in the realm, after so many years," muttered Hullen, the

master of horse. "I like it not."

Jeor Mormont:

"You must make them understand. I tell you, my lord, the darkness

is coming. There are wild things in the woods, direwolves and mammoths and

snow bears the size of aurochs, and I have seen darker shapes in my dreams."

“It’s said that direwolves once roamed the north in great packs of a hundred or more, and feared neither man nor mammoth, but that was long ago

and in another land. It is queer to see the common wolves of the south so bold.”

Direwolves were not loved in the North, and everyone was relieved to see them recede to behind the wall. (Only the wargs may have missed them, but in a generation of two this was forgotten).

We have seen in the present day the kind of havoc just ONE direwolf is causing in the riverlands. Now imagine HUNDREDS of versions of Nymeria roaming the north fearing neither man nor mammoth!!!

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Something seemed to happen to creatures of magic in Westeros about 200 years before the start of the books. We know shortly thereafter the dragons died out. It would not suprise me to find that the last dragon born happened around the year 100 AL. My guess is we may find out that the Maesters may have concocted something.

This is an interesting idea. perhaps the direwolves were dwindling and the Targaryens pushed them over the edge.

The child of the Forest, Leaf, mentions the Great Lions of the Western Mountains (presumably where the Lannisters take their sigil from) in the same breath as direwolves and Giants.

Does anyone have any idea or reference pointing to when the Great Western Lions disappeared from the Westerlands??

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Interesting premise - but the mention of Aegon taking the Crown of Winter intrigued me more and now my mind is crackpotting all over the place wondering if this will make a strategic appearance in our timeline. :X

I really love crakpots so I hope you are coming up with something good to share!

I'm not sure if the presence of dragons would be enough to send the wolves of their own volition North of the wall or the if the Targ's had a selfish motivation that would give them reason to do it. What makes me scratch my head is we seemingly have no wargs south of the wall when Aegon landed besides BR (who was a greenseer) until the Stark kids. Why was that? Did the direwolves disappear because wargs did? Or did wargs disappear because of the direwolves?

I don't think just the presence of dragons would send the wolves north or cause them to disappear. I'm just not sure what would have caused it. I rather like Eleana Targaryen's explanation upthread about the crown being the key, but I am unable to come up with evidence on how to expand on this.

I think it's likely that there were wargs and skinchangers around before and after Bloodraven. The realm south of the wall knows of them and wargs aren't just tossed in with the grumkin and snark stories which makes me think that there are stories of their existence in modern times, stories we haven't heard yet. Still, that wargs and skinchangers are so disgusted south of the wall is what gives me pause that there may have been a propaganda campaign against them at some point, causing them to go into hiding.

I think it's possible that Alysanne and co. may have thought wargs existed because of the direwolves, even if that's not entirely true. If they thought that, it might add to a reason why they might have sought to remove direwolves from the realm.

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Still, that wargs and skinchangers are so disgusted south of the wall is what gives me pause that there may have been a propaganda campaign against them at some point, causing them to go into hiding.

I think it's possible that Alysanne and co. may have thought wargs existed because of the direwolves, even if that's not entirely true. If they thought that, it might add to a reason why they might have sought to remove direwolves from the realm.

I gave a lengthy breakdown upthread about why I find it hard to believe that there was a focused propaganda campaign against direwolves/wargs (and a few tidbits about Barth). The gist of it is that there's no indication in the text that anything like this ever happened, no hints, no oblique references to it, nothing.

Even the Northerners regard Jaehaerys I and his wife as good monarchs and respect their patronage of the Night's Watch. I don't think they'd have that kind of reputation if they'd engaged in this kind of campaign against vital elements of the North's history and its symbolism. It would require a coverup of a magnitude we've yet to see in the books. And in ASOIAF, the larger and more elaborate the plan, the more it is inclined to fail.

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<snip>Keep in mind that not long after this, the Targaryen dragons began to go into decline as well. I think it's more likely that the ebbing tide of magic in the world, <snip>

I think your post does a very good job of finding holes in the theory, so I'll not comment on the other parts except to say I like it.

I pull out the above because I've been thinking about all of the theories on why the dragons did disappear. I support the theory that the Citadel had something to do with it. The evidence we have is that magic doesn't spontaneously happen. It is the result of a character doing...something. Someone has to cut off a penis, toss it in the fire and whisper a few words before shadows show up. Someone has to kiss another for a fire zombie to arise. Someone has to sing or something for dragon eggs to hatch. If the use and availability of magic is only because of people, then the decline of magic would likely be linked to people.

It would be interesting to learn if any maesters traveled north with Alysanne and Jaehaerys I and if so, who they were. If the maesters had something to do with dragons disappearing, then they might have also had something to do with direwolves disappearing.

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I gave a lengthy breakdown upthread about why I find it hard to believe that there was a focused propaganda campaign against direwolves/wargs (and a few tidbits about Barth). The gist of it is that there's no indication in the text that anything like this ever happened, no hints, no oblique references to it, nothing.

Even the Northerners regard Jaehaerys I and his wife as good monarchs and respect their patronage of the Night's Watch. I don't think they'd have that kind of reputation if they'd engaged in this kind of campaign against vital elements of the North's history and its symbolism. It would require a coverup of a magnitude we've yet to see in the books. And in ASOIAF, the larger and more elaborate the plan, the more it is inclined to fail.

Yes, I was actually responding to that other post while you wrote this.

When I put forth the idea of a propaganda campaign, I'm not saying that Alysanne and co are the ones who started the whole "wargs are bad, grrr" talk. I'm saying that while they were busy doing good things around the north -things that the north would respect them for - someone else was busy with the propaganda machine. Who would believe that Alysanne could possibly say something bad after she's done something so great like help the Night's Watch and end First Night?

I propose that the person in charge of this 'bad' propaganda against wargs and skinchangers was possibly Barth. I believe his book on dragons is a bunch of propaganda. It wouldn't be an elaborate plan. All it takes is one small story and it would spread of it's own accord. Barth wouldn't have to be the one to do it, it could have been any person. My initial proposal was just that Barth had something to do with it.

Of course, it was only a theory and I have been interested in what other ideas people have to bring to the table. I've modified my own initial thoughts to add in new points. I agree with your earlier statement that correlation does not always mean causation. Still, in a series where coincidences are rarely just that, it's difficult for me to simply shrug off a timeline connection as a simple coincidence.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm still not sold on the fact that Jaehaerys and Alysanne's sponsorship of two new forts along the Wall in place of the Nightfort was due to a desire to help. It's indicated in the book that the Watch was already declining at the point of their arrival, but the Nightfort should, by all accounts, stay well-manned. It was the first castle built along the Wall (or before it) and it has a strong magical presence as well (The Black Doo

This ties into what BloodRaven said of Bran's eagerness to contact his father from the Weirwood in Wintefell's godswood, that it was impossible and foolish. If that is the case, then wouldn't the Black Door asking Sam who he is be considered impossible in the same vein?

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  • 1 month later...

One thing I notice besides getting the nights watch out of the night fort is the doubling of the gift, sure it helps the watch but it also takes land from the warden of the north. The nights watch is suppose to be politically neutral, so it takes something away from winterfell and still make the king and queens look great

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I am sold on this. Really interested in the dynamic between the Starks and targareyeans under their rule. We really on have this scene and the king that nelt scene so they are definitely keeping something hidden that will be a big point later, and it will be along the lines of this theory.

This really brings up the question of the significance of both Bloodraven and Jon being Tagaryen wargs. We know for sure that Bloodraven is one and there is a strong chance Jon is also. Could that be some kind of an alignment that might mean a thousand years of peace is coming for the realm or some such thing?

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I'm trying to make connections here and doing quite a sloppy job of it, but hopefully you or someone else can work something out.

Bran's watching through the weirwood at Winterfell. The visions start with his father and go back to what we presume to be Lyanna and Benjen, then perhaps to Brandon Snow (recent speculation). He starts seeing the faces of the lords and kings he recognizes from the crypts. At the end, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. “No,” said Bran, “no, don’t,” but they could not hear him, no more than his father had. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed.

This is a woman who seems to be in charge. There are levels of the crypts that we have not seen. I wonder why. Was there a time that there were Queens of Winter? Were women the ones who forged the pact with the COTF, and perhaps became the initial wargs amongst the FM?

It actually seems like iron is the way to disable wargs. The iron swords in the crypts and this iron sickle thing are certainly tied together. The question is, "how?"

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Very interesting! I can't believe I didn't see this sooner, I guess I wasn't around. :(

Also thanks for linking to my theory that Barth was a propaganda peddler. B)

ETA: Incidentally, one of the biggest nitpicks to the theory that the Targs avoided invading because of wargs is that Alysanne and Jaehaerys visited with their dragons without incident. So this speculation goes a long way toward addressing that particular point, too.

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What if it wasn't the dragon that caused the direwolves to disappear, but abandoning the night fort? That is a magical castle after all with a secret gate through the wall.

I don't buy all the heresy threads, but I firmly believe that Stark blood is part of some pact between the others and mankind and is the source for the myth of the last hero. I imagine the night fort and the watch played significant roles in that.

But what I like most is that this is another parallel between dire wolves and dragons.

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It actually seems like iron is the way to disable wargs. The iron swords in the crypts and this iron sickle thing are certainly tied together. The question is, "how?"

I thought iron kept souls from wandering? And the sickle was bronze right? I assumed this was to show the scene was from before the Andal invasion. That was the Westerosi bronze age!

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I thought iron kept souls from wandering? And the illegal was bronze right? I assumed this was to show the scene was from before the Andal invasion. That was the Waserosi bronze age!

Bronze seems to be used in blood sacrifice rituals (MMD - Bran's vision of the white haired woman) - perhaps iron hinders the warg bond? It would be fitting considering the CotF aversion to it.

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I also didn't understand why Eddard wasn't more initially thrilled when he saw direwolves returning to the realm, particularly after we took a look at their crypt with the statues of the Kings of Winter seated on thrones, each with a direwolf at their feet. I mean, did he think direwolves were just their symbolic sigil, the way lions apparently are for the Lannisters? Did no one look at those lifelike statues of past kings and lords and think that at some point in their past, Starks and direwolves were intimately connected? That they kept direwolves almost as pets (or at least wargs)?

When I read about the crypts, I imagined that the direwolf carved at each king's foot was actually the king's warg, that each direwolf was as unique and individual as each king.

When did they go from being a king's pride (carved with their immortalized likeness) to being an undesirable animal everyone was pleased lived only north of the wall?

Nobody liked the direwolves because their mother was killed by a stag. Combine that with the fact that they hadn't been seen in a while it was a little creepy. Especially with the news of Robert's coming.

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