Alysanne, Jaehaerys I, Direwolves and a Bit of Barth

[Summer is Ending]

Do we have other examples of bronze used in blood sacrifices? Or just this vision? Yohn Royce has his bronze armor but that's all I can think of.

Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs.

[J. Stargaryen]

It had occurred to me in the past that maybe magic had started to recede from the world when House Targaryen took control of Westeros. This doesn't really fit with the timeline of ~300 years ago, until you realize that Dorne did not officially join the Seven Kingdoms until nearly 200 years after the conquest. And of course, magic only began to grow in power after the Targaryens had been ousted as the ruling house of Westeros.

I wonder if there might be something at work here like one kingdom --> cohesive civilization --> less magic. In AGoT, King Robert dies --> the kingdom is fractured --> dragons are born.

[Black Wolf Smith]

It actually seems like iron is the way to disable wargs. The iron swords in the crypts and this iron sickle thing are certainly tied together. The question is, "how?"

Welcome to the boards. If you really want to know, look up iron and Fae, there is plenty of folklore about it. Which is part of the reason us Heretics think there are many links between aSoIaF and the Tam lin story.

I wonder if there might be something at work here like one kingdom --> cohesive civilization --> less magic. In AGoT, King Robert dies --> the kingdom is fractured --> dragons are born.

I would think that it has more to do with the Maesters, and their desire to rid the world of magic/dragons then one kingdom >less magic.

[Lord Martin]

Mirri Maz Duur chanted words in a tongue that Dany did not know, and a knife appeared in her hand. Dany never saw where it came from. It looked old; hammered red bronze, leaf-shaped, its blade covered with ancient glyphs.

Ah, I forgot. Good call. But again, primitive cultures is a common bond. Still its intriguing...

Not long after Dany has a vision of shadows in the tent. Interestingly one is a wolf, the other is a man wreathed in flames. Wolf and man on fire?? The Great Other and Lord of Light?

This is what Dany sees when MMD saves drogo and kills Dany's baby. When she awakens the red comet is there. Perhaps those supernatural beings are sending in their minions, dragons and red priests and direwolves and wargs... Or more correctly awakening their magical properties?

[J. Stargaryen]

Welcome to the boards. If you really want to know, look up iron and Fae, there is plenty of folklore about it. Which is part of the reason us Heretics think there are many links between aSoIaF and the Tam lin story.

I would think that it has more to do with the Maesters, and their desire to rid the world of magic/dragons then one kingdom >less magic.

Maesters predate the conquest.

As Westeros became more civilized it became less magical, it seems. Maybe that's just coincidence, but I'm not sure it's an idea that can be dismissed out of hand. Even before the conquest this seems to be true. There seems to have been a gradual shift from magic to civilization represented by the dominant species on Westeros. CoTF --> First Men --> Andals. I don't know, but it might be worth considering.

[Lord Martin]

Isn't there also a scene where a master gt real snippy about predictions by a woods witch or hedge wizard? Maybe Luwin when the lords come to Winterfell to report the harvest.

Clearly the maesters dislike magic, I'd liked to have seen that transition away from old arts to maesters...

[Budj]

Ah, I forgot. Good call. But again, primitive cultures is a common bond. Still its intriguing...

Not long after Dany has a vision of shadows in the tent. Interestingly one is a wolf, the other is a man wreathed in flames. Wolf and man on fire?? The Great Other and Lord of Light?

This is what Dany sees when MMD saves drogo and kills Dany's baby. When she awakens the red comet is there. Perhaps those supernatural beings are sending in their minions, dragons and red priests and direwolves and wargs... Or more correctly awakening their magical properties?

I could be way off base...but I think that is foreshadowing of Jon's resurrection.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Maesters predate the conquest.

As Westeros became more civilized it became less magical, it seems. Maybe that's just coincidence, but I'm not sure it's an idea that can be dismissed out of hand. Even before the conquest this seems to be true. There seems to have been a gradual shift from magic to civilization represented by the dominant species on Westeros. CoTF --> First Men --> Andals. I don't know, but it might be worth considering.

I am just a girl and know little of the works of magic and septons, but...

Shortly after the Targaryens took power, the faith militant was put down by Magegor the Cruel. In a real sense the faith of the Seven was weakend, and the Maester slowly gained more power as time went forword. Now I see a chicken and egg arguement about whether or not the maesters made society more civilized, or if a more civilized society gave the maesters more power, but not on what you are suggesting. The maesters were actively trying to end magic, and magic was fading from the world of aSoIaF.

[J. Stargaryen]

I am just a girl and know little of the works of magic and septons, but...

Shortly after the Targaryens took power, the faith militant was put down by Magegor the Cruel. In a real sense the faith of the Seven was weakend, and the Maester slowly gained more power as time went forword. Now I see a chicken and egg arguement about whether or not the maesters made society more civilized, or if a more civilized society gave the maesters more power, but not on what you are suggesting. The maesters were actively trying to end magic, and magic was fading from the world of aSoIaF.

The point being, in reply to your original objection, is that the maesters were doing a pretty piss poor job of ridding the world of magic until after all of Westeros was united into one kingdom. Then, coincidentally, the last vestiges of magic - the dragons - started to die out. I would perhaps liken this to the maesters wanting it to rain, and hosing everything down until it actually starts to rain. Are the maesters responsible for the rain, or is there something bigger at work?

Anyway, I think we might be veering off topic. If you're interested in continuing this conversation, there is probably a better thread to do so here: Why is magic getting stronger?

[ANGARR]

Bronze seems to be used in blood sacrifice rituals (MMD - Bran's vision of the white haired woman) - perhaps iron hinders the warg bond? It would be fitting considering the CotF aversion to it.

Whoa, there's a CotF aversion to iron? I think we're on to something here!

[ANGARR]

Welcome to the boards. If you really want to know, look up iron and Fae, there is plenty of folklore about it. Which is part of the reason us Heretics think there are many links between aSoIaF and the Tam lin story.

I would think that it has more to do with the Maesters, and their desire to rid the world of magic/dragons then one kingdom >less magic.

Thank you!

I've read some Heresy posts (so many), and they seem pretty relevant to whatever weird stuff is going on with magic.

"Tam Lin" reminds me of House of the Scorpion. Will read up.

[Castel]

It had occurred to me in the past that maybe magic had started to recede from the world when House Targaryen took control of Westeros. This doesn't really fit with the timeline of ~300 years ago, until you realize that Dorne did not officially join the Seven Kingdoms until nearly 200 years after the conquest. And of course, magic only began to grow in power after the Targaryens had been ousted as the ruling house of Westeros.

I wonder if there might be something at work here like one kingdom --> cohesive civilization --> less magic. In AGoT, King Robert dies --> the kingdom is fractured --> dragons are born.

Do we see any evidence of magic itself disappearing? Westeros does not seem to have a large history of magic after the CotF before Aegon. I basically took the disappearance of direwolves as a sign of Targ dominance and northern subjugation. They were driven past the walls because it was a time of summer and fire. But this raises the obvious question:why didn't this happen when Aegon first landed?

[J. Stargaryen]

Do we see any evidence of magic itself disappearing? Westeros does not seem to have a large history of magic after the CotF before Aegon. I basically took the disappearance of direwolves as a sign of Targ dominance and northern subjugation. They were driven past the walls because it was a time of summer and fire. But this raises the obvious question:why didn't this happen when Aegon first landed?

I don't really have a solid theory on this yet. It's more that I noticed a trend, or coincidences. The Targs have difficulty hatching dragons after the conquests. AFAIK, this wasn't a problem before. Though they are able to hatch some post-conquest, none are as big or powerful as Balerion - which I think alludes to the waning power of magic. And, as we are all well aware, after the dragons finally die out the next time dragons are hatched is after the Targaryens have been ousted as rulers of Westeros. I wonder why that is. I think there may be a struggle between civilization, if you will, and magic.

As for magic disappearing, I would say this is most often represented by the failure of the Targs to hatch and raise dragons. But I think you could also look to the lack of direwolves south of the wall as evidence of this as well. Your suggestion makes sense too, at least symbolically. I'm not sure how to answer your last question, but it surely ties into this vague theory that I'm proposing, which is best summed up for now as: civilzation vs. magic.

[Dr. Pepper]

This discussion is really starting to get interesting. I feel like slapping myself because I hadn't before noticed the connection between the direwolves and the dragons. Dragons started dying out soon after the direwolves disappeared to north of the wall. Dragons were hatched soon after the direwolves returned south of the wall. Not sure what to make of this and crackpot theories are bouncing around my head like crazy....so crazy I'm embarrassed to write them out until I think on it further.

[Dr. Pepper]

Love this! and I wonder if she who holds the crown commands the direwolves? ( crackpot I know :) )

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say.

I'm reviving this thread because butterbumps! theorized Lyanna's crypt containing the bronze and iron crown of winter (quoted below). I found it very interesting as it somewhat relates to something discussed here about the crown having magical properties. At the moment, I've no ideas about what this could mean, but I am interested in what sorts of ideas or theories others can come up with.

If there is anything about R=L at all, I think it's Torrhen's crown. One of Cat's chapters leaves the fate of this crown very open-ended: "The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say."

Given all of the crown symbolism surrounding Lyanna, I think this really makes the most literary sense as an object, and would serve as a token at once proving Rhaegar's love (returning an item taken by his forebears), as well as a nod to Jon's royalty given their likely marriage. This bronze and iron crown in particular is more meaningful for Jon than a Targ relic, I think, because, while it hints about his parentage, that hint is about returning and restoring a Northern identity, something I don't believe Jon would give up even after learning about R+L. It would also add an interesting wrinkle to his vow to wear no crowns, given that a strong KitN/ King of Winter could be extremely useful as a power symbol behind which to rally.

[Elkrider]

I think that whatever influence maesters had on the decline of magic started occurring long before the Targaryens arrived. Remember that Torrhen Stark sent 3 maesters along with Brandon Snow to negotiate the surrender, so for at least that long the Citadel has held influence in the North.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

spoiler Rogue Prince:

On the third day of third moon of 129 AC, Princess Helaena brought her three children to visit with the king in his chambers. The twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six years old, their brother Maelor only two. His Grace gave the babe a pearl ring off his finger to play with, and told the twins the story of how their great-great-grandsire and namesake Jaehaerys the Old King had flown his dragon north to the Wall to defeat a vast host of wildlings, giants, and wargs.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I don't think there's a chance in hell that Tywin used a ton of silver to forge swords.

[TheWitch]

Personally, I imagined the Direwolves where hunted to death. The reason they where not thrilled, is that huge wolves are not great thing to be lurking in forests and near farms. They would kill livestock and people. I'm sure a Tytos Lannister wasn't overwhelmed with joy when he came face to face with a lion. Fear of Wargs may originate in a general fear of witchcraft?

[Mdoggy]

Would you wolves to a bunch of children includeing Rickon who is only three? I wouldnt. I can see why Ned did not want the wolves comeing home. He didnt know his children were wargs.