44 replies to this topic

[Cinder and Dust]

Edit: Reposted topic here, where I originally intended. Feel free to delete/ignore the thread I started on the General Forum.

I've always been bothered by the fact that the Andals were strong enough and had enough of a following to invade and subdue most of Westeros, that their religious fervor reached a point where they had to export it of all things which suggests a strong power base on the continent at the time, and yet there is barely any indication it had any long-term effect or legacy on Essos, nor any holding of authority like they do on Westeros. Perhaps this might be addressed in A World of Ice and Fire, I certainly hope it will. Still, does anyone have any suggestions as to what exactly happened with the Faith back on Essos?

Edited by Cinder and Dust, 16 September 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[Manderly Chef]

I think the Andals either invaded before the Valyrian Freehold rose or they were fleeing Valyrian expansion (this would explain why the Faith bans slavery). Any Andals who stayed in Essos were probably defeated and absorbed into the part of the Freehold that became Pentos.

[Cinder and Dust]

My problem with that explaination is that it doesn't really correspond with the timelines progression. The Andals invaded about a thousand years before Valyria rose to power, and by the fact that the Rhoynar only invaded a thousand years ago themselves to escape Valyria suggests the Freehold hadn't made much progress in the north west (where the Andals orginiated) until around that time. Even then I'd have expected the religion to had some lingering roots and legacy of their culture after the Freeholds fall, as was the case with the remnants of Ghis around Slavers Bay.

[Manderly Chef]

i agree. i'd love more info from GRRM about the details of the Andal migration

[Ser Lepus]

I can understand how come Essos has forgotten the Andals, since the Andal migration happened thousands of years ago when the Valyrians pushed them out of their own country. What I can't understand is the Rhoynar migration.

Given their position along the shores of the Rhoyne, where their capital Chroyane/The Sorrows was located, the Valyrians should have reached the Rhoynar well before the Andals, but the Rhoynars escaped Essos thousands of years afters the Andals, and escaped going south, to the mouth of the Rhoyne past Volantis and then sailing west to Dorne, which doesn't make sense. It almost seems as if the Valyrians had jumped above the Rhoynar nation, reached the Andal Hills and then pushed them south (which they could have done, having dragons and such, but I can't understand why they would ignore the Rhoynar and attack the Andals, who were far more remote).

Edited by Ser Lepus, 17 September 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[Eating My Wings]

I have always viewed the Andal Migration as a clear reference to the Exodus, with the Seven descending to Andalos and encouraging the locals to make their way to the Promised Land.

[Cinder and Dust]

If this was an Exodus, rather then say a crusade, then we could definitely do with an elaboration as to what kind of message the Seven sent that indicated why Westeros was such a "Promised Land" for the Andals and they felt the need to transfer their religion over their rather then settle on Essos. There were clear reasons that prompted the Exodus after all.

Ser Lepus, on 17 September 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

I can understand how come Essos has forgotten the Andals, since the Andal migration happened thousands of years ago when the Valyrians pushed them out of their own country. What I can't understand is the Rhoynar migration.

Given their position along the shores of the Rhoyne, where their capital Chroyane/The Sorrows was located, the Valyrians should have reached the Rhoynar well before the Andals, but the Rhoynars escaped Essos thousands of years afters the Andals, and escaped going south, to the mouth of the Rhoyne past Volantis and then sailing west to Dorne, which doesn't make sense. It almost seems as if the Valyrians had jumped above the Rhoynar nation, reached the Andal Hills and then pushed them south (which they could have done, having dragons and such, but I can't understand why they would ignore the Rhoynar and attack the Andals, who were far more remote).

What makes you think the Valyrians invaded the Andals first? This exact progression suggests to me the Freehold only really started to advance West coming up the South about a thousand years ago, the migration of refugee slaves to form the city of Braavos also suggests that the Valyrian path of conquest came from the South along the rivers of Rhoyne.

Edited by Cinder and Dust, 17 September 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Manderly Chef]

I don't have the books in front of me but doesn't ADWD say that Volantis is the oldest Free City? In that case they conquered the Rhoynar before they reached Andalos. Maybe the expanding Rhoynar empire conquered the last Andals in Essos

[Cinder and Dust]

Ghis's culture survived five wars and their capital burned to the ground while likely spending thousands of years under Valyrian domination. Even  if the Rhoynar did subdue the Andals their should be at least some remnant their own culture if they maintained a sizable presence on Essos after the invasion of Westeros.

Edited by Cinder and Dust, 17 September 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Snowmelter]

I was under the impression that the entire Andal people migrated to Westeros.  Were they fleeing the Dothraki?  Or did their gods just tell them to find Westeros.  How long did they dwell in Essos before this exodus?

[Ser Lepus]

Cinder and Dust, on 17 September 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

What makes you think the Valyrians invaded the Andals first? This exact progression suggests to me the Freehold only really started to advance West coming up the South about a thousand years ago, the migration of refugee slaves to form the city of Braavos also suggests that the Valyrian path of conquest came from the South along the rivers of Rhoyne.

The Andals had been well established at Westeros for many centuries when Nymeria and her Rhoynar arrived to Dorne.

The logical thing would have been for the valyrians to conquer the mouth and shores of the Rhoyne, expel the Rhoynar, and later attack the Andaland (Andal Hills) and expel the Andals, but the timeline says that the Andals migrated to Westeros first, which is weird. And GRRM said that valyrian pressure was the reason behind both migrations.

[Werthead]

The timeline of the Andal migration, the rise of Valyria and Valyria's displacement of the Rhoynish has always been unsatisfactory. However, IIRC Ran did say that the Valyrians and the Rhoynar did actually coexist for some time (hard to believe it'd be centuries, let alone thousands of years) before the Valyrians attacked them. So on that basis the Valyrian border would be the Rhoyne, with Volantis as their furthest outpost, with the rest of the Rhoynish kingdom to the north.

My personal preference would be for the Andal migration to either have nothing at all to do with the Valyrians, or if it to have been due to a religious vision which encouraged them to go to Westeros and leave no-one behind. But then again, that'd be the same reason why the Targaryens went to Westeros, which seems like implausible repetition.

Edited by Werthead, 19 September 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

I can just imagine that.

"This place is shit...let's move across the sea and never come back". And everyone suddenly thinks it is a good idea and actually does it.

[Free Northman]

Werthead, on 19 September 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

The timeline of the Andal migration, the rise of Valyria and Valyria's displacement of the Rhoynish has always been unsatisfactory. However, IIRC Ran did say that the Valyrians and the Rhoynar did actually coexist for some time (hard to believe it'd be centuries, let alone thousands of years) before the Valyrians attacked them. So on that basis the Valyrian border would be the Rhoyne, with Volantis as their furthest outpost, with the rest of the Rhoynish kingdom to the north.

My personal preference would be for the Andal migration to either have nothing at all to do with the Valyrians, or if it to have been due to a religious vision which encouraged them to go to Westeros and leave no-one behind. But then again, that'd be the same reason why the Targaryens went to Westeros, which seems like implausible repetition.

I would use real world comparisons to try and find solutions to this vexing question.

If we look at tribes like the Goths that invaded the Roman Empire around the 4th century AD, these tribes were usually moving west and south into Roman territory due to the pressure of other aggressors further east.

In the same way, I would suggest that perhaps the Valyrian pressure in the East and South, forced the growing Rhoynish civilizitation to expand northwards and westwards into Andal territory. We know the Rhoynish were an older and more advanced civilization than the Andals - since the Andals apparently learned the art of ironworking from the Rhoynar.

So most likely the Rhoynar were too strong a foe for the relatively primitive and far less populous Andals to deal with. Hence, this pressure from the Rhoynar - as a knock on effect from the pressure of the Valyrians further east - forced the Andals to migrate to Westeros in turn, where they  were able to defeat the even more primitive First Men, who were still in the Bronze Age at the time.

Most likely advanced technology spread from the east - either from Ashai or from Valyria - and crept westward first to the Rhoynar and then to the Andals and finally to the First Men, after the Andal migration, pretty much like it did in the real world, from the Middle East to the more barbarric European tribes in ancient times.

Thus, the Valyrians were ultimately still responsible for the Andal migration, but indirectly, rather than directly, through their encroachment into Rhoynish lands in the east.

Edited by Free Northman, 21 September 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Lykos]

I had some ideas in an interesting thread, I would like people to contribute to.

Lykos, on 14 July 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

Melisandre says the legend of Azor Ahai was written 5000 years ago.  I think the Long Night is connected to the AA legend.  Dany mentions that Valyria defeated Old Ghis 5000 years ago.  If we are correct in the assumption that the Andals fled from the Valyrians, they invaded Westeros less than 5000 years ago.  The Andals first landed at the Fingers 6000 years ago according to an inscription on a stone mentioned in a Sansa chapter, but that might just have been a first contact.
The Andals first settled in the Vale and were held back by Tristifer Mudd, the "Hammer of Justice" until he lost his 100th battle, Catelyn remembers when  they camp at Old Stones before the Red Wedding.  
So they came into the Riverland less than 4000 years ago.

Lykos, on 16 August 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

<snip>
Illyrio told Tyrion that the Andals learned how to work iron from the Rhoynar and I believe the Rhoynar have been part of the Valyrian Freehold at that time already.  I speculate that the need for slaves first caused the Valyrians to attack the Andals, who were not part of the Freehold, but they fled to the Vale.  So the Valyrians turned to the members of their Freehold instead, thus causing the uprise of Prince Garin.
<snip>

[Ser Lepus]

Free Northman, on 21 September 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

I would use real world comparisons to try and find solutions to this vexing question.

If we look at tribes like the Goths that invaded the Roman Empire around the 4th century AD, these tribes were usually moving west and south into Roman territory due to the pressure of other aggressors further east.

In the same way, I would suggest that perhaps the Valyrian pressure in the East and South, forced the growing Rhoynish civilizitation to expand northwards and westwards into Andal territory. We know the Rhoynish were an older and more advanced civilization than the Andals - since the Andals apparently learned the art of ironworking from the Rhoynar.

So most likely the Rhoynar were too strong a foe for the relatively primitive and far less populous Andals to deal with. Hence, this pressure from the Rhoynar - as a knock on effect from the pressure of the Valyrians further east - forced the Andals to migrate to Westeros in turn, where they  were able to defeat the even more primitive First Men, who were still in the Bronze Age at the time.

Most likely advanced technology spread from the east - either from Ashai or from Valyria - and crept westward first to the Rhoynar and then to the Andals and finally to the First Men, after the Andal migration, pretty much like it did in the real world, from the Middle East to the more barbarric European tribes in ancient times.

Thus, the Valyrians were ultimately still responsible for the Andal migration, but indirectly, rather than directly, through their encroachment into Rhoynish lands in the east.

I've thought of that, but, if the valyrian advance had pushed the rhoynar into andal territory, displacing the andals, that would still have required Nymeria to go back south over Volantis and the already conquered territories when she escaped the valyrians and took a fleet to sail west. The most natural route of escape would have been going to the north, in the opposite direction to Volantis.

The only explanation to Nymeria's bizarre route of escape would be:

   1.- The valyrians had scattered the rhoynar far from the Rhoyne long before Nymeria, to today's Andal Hills and Disputed Lands; the northen branch would be the one that had expelled the andals from their territory, and eventually became today's pentoshi, and maybe the qohorik and norvoshi, mixed with the remaining andals that didn't migrate, while the eastern branch (Nymeria's) would live close to today's Tyrosh and Myr and would have escaped the valyrians crossing the sea Dorne when the latter invaded the Disputed Lands.

   OR,

   2.- The valyrians had pushed the rhoynar north, displacing the andals, but eventually reached and conquered them, bringing them back to the Rhoyne shores and delta as slaves or serfs, until Nymeria rebelled and managed a short-term victory against the valyrians, stealing their volantene fleet, which they used to escape sailing west.

Edited by Ser Lepus, 22 September 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[Lykos]

Ser Lepus, I obviously tend towards my scenario, but Free Northman put forward a good alternative explanation and both your points for Nymeria´s flight are probable.

1. - Look at the movement of germanic tribes.  And as far as I know only the people of Lys have these very special physical traits that makes mixing with other people less likely, and Lys is an island.

2. - Garin and his 250 000 men "made Valyria tremble" before being beaten presumably at The Sorrows (Chroyane), since some believe he´s become The Shrouded Lord.  So Nymeria and the rest of the Rhoynar could have fled on the Rhoyne or have been           waiting in the already taken Volantis.

[Ser Lepus]

Lykos, on 21 September 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

2. - Garin and his 250 000 men "made Valyria tremble" before being beaten presumably at The Sorrows (Chroyane), since some believe he´s become The Shrouded Lord.  So Nymeria and the rest of the Rhoynar could have fled on the Rhoyne or have been    waiting in the already taken Volantis.

Do we know the timeline of Garin's war? Garin is strongly associated to the destruction of Chroyane, that is up there far north from Volantis, while Nymeria had to set sail from Volantis or somewhere in the Disputed Lands. It's possible the whole Rhoyne from the sea to the Hills of Norvos was a vassal kingdom of the valyrians and when it rebelled the dragons directly attacked its heart, Chroyane, before moving against the rest of the kingdom, and then Nymeria (who would be some princess living in the southern part of the Rhoynar Kingdom) escaped with a part of the population taking all the ships she could find at the Arbor of Volantis.

Another option is that, when Chroyane was destroyed the northen part of the Rhoynar Kingdom was abandoned or depopulated and the remaining rhoynars were living in the south until Nymeria's migration.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Just to add some info, the 6000 years ago date for the Andal Invasion of Westeros comes from a Catelyn chapter in aGoT, when she is recalling the Tale of Alyssa's Tears. We also get dates of 4000 ya and 2000 ya, both from Hoster Blackwood in aDwD, along with a discourse on historical inaccuracy.

I advocate trusting the 5000 ya date for the Valyrian defeat of Old Ghis, because those societies were almost certainly literate. Literacy makes keeping your dates straight much easier. Everything else is a bit iffy.

[OldManDennis]

Not that every relation to War of Roses England has a bunch of significance, but I would think that Andals = Angles.  As in Angelo-Saxon, one of the main ingredients in the ethnic stew that is England.  The word England actually comes from Angelo.  They mounted enough of an invasion of Britain to leave a very lasting mark, but the Angles themselves (from the area between Germany and Denmark) mostly got conquered and absorbed without much fuss.