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Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

Boromir-Bloodstorm

By Boromir-Bloodstorm,
in General (ASoIaF)

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7V3N Council Member

7V3N

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Well if we stop ignoring what I said about how ice dragons are silent ( :bang: ), stealth for this supposed dragon is a much greater possibility.

The biggest issue that we all have is why does Bran not recall anything? There are reasons why he might not have, reasons why he should have. But he didn't so it is unknown whether he truly saw a dragon.

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Khal GoGo Squire

Khal GoGo

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Well if we stop ignoring what I said about how ice dragons are silent ( :bang: ), stealth for this supposed dragon is a much greater possibility.

The biggest issue that we all have is why does Bran not recall anything? There are reasons why he might not have, reasons why he should have. But he didn't so it is unknown whether he truly saw a dragon.

The 'dragon' is described as a winged snake who's roar is a river of fire. Doesn't that more or less rule out the possibility of an ice dragon?

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redriver Council Member

redriver

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Well if we stop ignoring what I said about how ice dragons are silent ( :bang: ), stealth for this supposed dragon is a much greater possibility.

The biggest issue that we all have is why does Bran not recall anything? There are reasons why he might not have, reasons why he should have. But he didn't so it is unknown whether he truly saw a dragon.

Are you suggesting that an Ice Dragon has emerged from the steaming vents below Winterfell?Apologies if I'm wrong.

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Dr. Pepper Council Member

Dr. Pepper

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<snip>

Anyway, forgive me for the long post and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting about. Just wanted to say it's been a fun thread and I enjoy this discussion on both sides. Some very interesting stuff being pointed out..

Good summary of why it's highly unlikely this is an actual dragon. I just wanted to add a point. In the entire narration of Summer/Bran watching the Winterfell destruction, most of the language is metaphorical or symbolic. Summer/Bran uses language like man claws, grey cliffs, hardskins, man rocks. Once Bran wakes up and tells Jojen and co that Winterfell has been destroyed, we know immediately that man claws are swords, grey cliffs are probably describing smoke, hardskins is armor, man rocks part of the building. All of this is connected completely with Winterfell's destruction. “It was Winterfell. It was all on fire. There were horse smells, and steel, and blood. They killed everyone, Meera.” This is the first thing Bran says when he wakes up.

If we believe that a winged snake describes a dragon instead of just another symbolic use of language to describe an fire arrow or just simply an explosion of sorts, then it would follow that we should be looking for alternative meanings for man claws and grey cliffs. Winged snake is a near literal interpretation of a dragon. Dany's dragons are described as serpent or snake like multiple times...especially in reference to their heads while they are eating. Man claws could easily describe the claws on the three-fingered COTF. If we think that a winged snake is literally a dragon, then I think it would be necessary to go into theorizing what the other odd descriptions might refer to.

Frankly, I don't find that altogether interesting because to me it's very clear that this entire vision is about Winterfell's destruction. However, there might be something interesting in figuring out of there is double meaning to it all (such as man claws being a reference to the COTF). Perhaps the dragon-sighting enthusiasts might be able to piece together Brans destiny from it all. I personally doubt it, but it would be interesting to see what people come up with.

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Dr. Pepper Council Member

Dr. Pepper

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It is a metaphor for Jon

This is interesting. :) Bran doesn't see Jon again after he leaves for the Wall. Bran gets close to him twice....once at Queenscrown and again at the Nightfort. But it's fleeting. So man claws could foreshadow COTF and the winged snake disappearing quickly could foreshadow those missed Jon encounters.

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Tharvot Landed Knight

Tharvot

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This is interesting. :) Bran doesn't see Jon again after he leaves for the Wall. Bran gets close to him twice....once at Queenscrown and again at the Nightfort. But it's fleeting. So man claws could foreshadow COTF and the winged snake disappearing quickly could foreshadow those missed Jon encounters.

I'm basing it on the R+L=J theory. Jon being at least partially Targ, he is the dragon that escaped Winterfell.

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The Mother of The Others Council Member

The Mother of The Others

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Wasn't the flying snake over Winterfell the wolf's way of describing smoke rising from Winterfell's burning?

If it's a cold dragon under winterfell, then it wouldn't be able to provide them with hot springs.

If it's a regular fire dragon under winterfell, then it'd provide them with hot springs but it would have died a long time ago along with the hot springs.

If it's an ongoing bloodline of fire dragons housed under the castle, then they could pass on the duty of heating the castle's walls from generation to generation. Of course they'd be doing this as an eternal prank because the starks have no knowledge of it nor do the northern gods. So.... a stealth dragon pact? Dating back to the first secret fire & ice marraige of human bloodlines, which was purposely erased from history... so as to preserve the secret of...... What?

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Tagganaro Council Member

Tagganaro

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Well if we stop ignoring what I said about how ice dragons are silent ( :bang: ), stealth for this supposed dragon is a much greater possibility.

The biggest issue that we all have is why does Bran not recall anything? There are reasons why he might not have, reasons why he should have. But he didn't so it is unknown whether he truly saw a dragon.

as has been said multiple times, does an ice dragon "roar a river of fire"? Can it be capable of warming WF as a Hot Spring type element? While it might be stealthy, can it go unnoticed for so long?

And unknown =/= likely ( :bang: ) as has been said 100 times.

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CJDTrismegistus Squire

CJDTrismegistus

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Which is why I think you are basing your ideas in this thread on what you want to see,and interpreting the text in that light.

Not a all. I just firmly believe that what Summer saw was a dragon.

I've given my opinion based on the same text everybody else has read, just because it differs from yours doesn't mean I'm trying to engineer the interpretation according to my own personal preferences for the story outcome. I know a lot of people believe otherwise and I think it's really interesting debating the subject. I think there's a lot of of topics within asoiaf that divide opinion and it's enjoyable to thrash them out, there's no harm in having a little fun at the same time - I don't really want a whole load of dragons in the end of the story - 4 will suffice.

Bran may have seen dragons stirring in Asshai in his first dream with the 3EC, and he may have seen a dragon at Wintefell whilst warged with Summer. Are they real? We don't really know. All we can do is wait for the last two books to reveal the facts and have fun debating the subjects with other like-minded individuals in the meantime.

It was a dragon. :)

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CJDTrismegistus Squire

CJDTrismegistus

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Wasn't the flying snake over Winterfell the wolf's way of describing smoke rising from Winterfell's burning?

If it's a cold dragon under winterfell, then it wouldn't be able to provide them with hot springs.

If it's a regular fire dragon under winterfell, then it'd provide them with hot springs but it would have died a long time ago along with the hot springs.

If it's an ongoing bloodline of fire dragons housed under the castle, then they could pass on the duty of heating the castle's walls from generation to generation. Of course they'd be doing this as an eternal prank because the starks have no knowledge of it nor do the northern gods. So.... a stealth dragon pact? Dating back to the first secret fire & ice marraige of human bloodlines, which was purposely erased from history... so as to preserve the secret of...... What?

Summer mentions the smoke in his eyes just before the great winged snake, so I doubt it's a way of describing smoke.

I doubt it's an ice dragon.

The magical properties of Winterfell may in some way have held the dragon in some kind of "stasis" and the sacking of Winterfell could have broken the "stasis spells".

Dragon family central heating......maybe. :D

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Sand Snake No. 9 Council Member

Sand Snake No. 9

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Bran may have seen dragons stirring in Asshai in his first dream with the 3EC, and he may have seen a dragon at Wintefell whilst warged with Summer. Are they real? We don't really know. All we can do is wait for the last two books to reveal the facts and have fun debating the subjects with other like-minded individuals in the meantime.

It was a dragon. :)

I believe Bran saw actual dragons in his dream, and that his vision was repeated by the one Melisandre had during her POV. But Summer's vision? Not a real dragon.

*Crackpot alert* I've thought that the serpent wrapped in smoke could symbolize Bloodraven, who was calling Bran beyond the Wall. The D&E stories describe BR as wearing a cloak "the color of smoke," i.e., mottled shades of grey.

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7V3N Council Member

7V3N

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as has been said multiple times, does an ice dragon "roar a river of fire"? Can it be capable of warming WF as a Hot Spring type element? While it might be stealthy, can it go unnoticed for so long?

And unknown =/= likely ( :bang: ) as has been said 100 times.

I said it may be inspiration, not a literal placement of GRRM's ice dragon. As in a dragon of the North, not necessarily ice.

And really? I never said it does. I was pointing out people saying "no way, you're wrong" is B.S. on both sides since we do not have nearly enough to say conclusively either way. Nice attitude though.

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CJDTrismegistus Squire

CJDTrismegistus

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*Crackpot alert* I've thought that the serpent wrapped in smoke could symbolize Bloodraven, who was calling Bran beyond the Wall. The D&E stories describe BR as wearing a cloak "the color of smoke," i.e., mottled shades of grey.

Hmmm, I like it.....hang on a minute, your a Shameless Bloodraven Groupie - of course you'd think it'd symbolize your idol!!

:laugh:

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7V3N Council Member

7V3N

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*Crackpot alert* I've thought that the serpent wrapped in smoke could symbolize Bloodraven, who was calling Bran beyond the Wall. The D&E stories describe BR as wearing a cloak "the color of smoke," i.e., mottled shades of grey.

See, this I could get behind. That metaphor makes much more sense than it applying to Jon.

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