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Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?


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#221 Tagganaro

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:21 PM

I said it may be inspiration, not a literal placement of GRRM's ice dragon. As in a dragon of the North, not necessarily ice.

And really? I never said it does. I was pointing out people saying "no way, you're wrong" is B.S. on both sides since we do not have nearly enough to say conclusively either way. Nice attitude though.


It was a joke based on your unnecessarily aggressive attitude towards other posters (me included on 1 occasion, and your use of this icon /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' /> to dismiss others. Nice attitude indeed lol.

I believe Bran saw actual dragons in his dream, and that his vision was repeated by the one Melisandre had during her POV. But Summer's vision? Not a real dragon.

*Crackpot alert* I've thought that the serpent wrapped in smoke could symbolize Bloodraven, who was calling Bran beyond the Wall. The D&E stories describe BR as wearing a cloak "the color of smoke," i.e., mottled shades of grey.


Wow, this is really interesting. Different way to look at that dream for sure.

Edited by Tagganaro, 24 September 2012 - 06:22 PM.


#222 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:26 PM

*Crackpot alert* I've thought that the serpent wrapped in smoke could symbolize Bloodraven, who was calling Bran beyond the Wall. The D&E stories describe BR as wearing a cloak "the color of smoke," i.e., mottled shades of grey.


This in another alternative interpretation I could get behind. I wonder what direction Summer was facing while watching it all.

#223 Sand Snake No. 9

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 06:37 PM

Hmmm, I like it.....hang on a minute, your a Shameless Bloodraven Groupie - of course you'd think it'd symbolize your idol!!

/laugh.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':laugh:' />


/blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

Nevertheless, Bloodraven is a dragon who was formerly wrapped in "smoke." In addition, his personal sigil was a white dragon breathing fire. That would cover the "roar a river of fire" part.

ETA: The connection to Bloodraven could be temporal, as well. Bran and his companions were going to set off North as soon as they could get out of WF safely.

Heh, wouldn't it be funny if Summer were having a Mel-like vision of the future in the flames of Winterfell? So then what he saw could be both the actual fire and smoke and a "dragon" of whatever sort.

Edited by Sand Snake No. 9, 24 September 2012 - 06:39 PM.


#224 7V3N

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

It was a joke based on your unnecessarily aggressive attitude towards other posters (me included on 1 occasion, and your use of this icon /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' /> to dismiss others. Nice attitude indeed lol.

Aggressive attitude? I've broken up the arguments here. There was one post where I jumped on someone, and immediately apologized. If anything, I feel I have been passive. I have done my best to remain objective, continually indicating that neither side can be right here since there is nowhere near enough evidence. You're again making this discussion personal.

ETA: And I felt that the emoticon "banging your head against the wall" conveys repetition and frustration, which was clear from what I said and targeted nobody at all. Look for a fight elsewhere because I want things to remain intelligent.

Edited by 7V3N, 24 September 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#225 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 07:50 PM

If we believe that a winged snake describes a dragon instead of just another symbolic use of language to describe an fire arrow or just simply an explosion of sorts, then it would follow that we should be looking for alternative meanings for man claws and grey cliffs. Winged snake is a near literal interpretation of a dragon. Dany's dragons are described as serpent or snake like multiple times...especially in reference to their heads while they are eating. Man claws could easily describe the claws on the three-fingered COTF. If we think that a winged snake is literally a dragon, then I think it would be necessary to go into theorizing what the other odd descriptions might refer to.


I don't understand this huge leap you seem to think there is between man claw and winged serpent. A wolf isn't a tool user so he would have to liken a tool to its function. Wolf claws are weapons, swords are weapons. On the other hand a wolf would know what a serpent is, and recognize wings from a bird. How is winged serpent then such an incredible jump? Even if you claim winged serpent is too literal, the fire is described as fire, because the wolf recognizes fire.

#226 Tagganaro

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Posted 24 September 2012 - 08:10 PM

Aggressive attitude? I've broken up the arguments here. There was one post where I jumped on someone, and immediately apologized. If anything, I feel I have been passive. I have done my best to remain objective, continually indicating that neither side can be right here since there is nowhere near enough evidence. You're again making this discussion personal.

ETA: And I felt that the emoticon "banging your head against the wall" conveys repetition and frustration, which was clear from what I said and targeted nobody at all. Look for a fight elsewhere because I want things to remain intelligent.


Of course you do...The poster you jumped on was most likely me (I'm guessing that's what you're referring to). I'm taking nothing personally- I thought your use of that emoticon was unfair based on the many different reasons given for why people don't think the dragon is an ice dragon, and as such was offensive. To be fair, I don't know much about what an ice dragon is, I have not read the other GRRM works, but it seems to me "roaring fire" would go against what an Ice Dragon would technically be, as I've said before and I'm not sure I've gotten an answer on.

I'm not looking for a fight at all, I never have been. But you keep seeing it that way if you want to /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' /> .

And I agree that no side can be right based on the evidence, as I too have said numerous times /bang.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bang:' /> .

#227 The Mother of The Others

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:45 AM

Bloodraven could be allowed as a visage of a dragon.
Like that smoke dragon he was watching over Winterfell, so as to make sure Bran got ushered safely away.

And a warg wolf's radar would probably detect the presence of the scrying greenseer, both being magical creatures and all.

So the wolf's mind depicted BR as a dragon to accurately reflect the man's magical fire blood. The dragon was ethereal due to BR not being there in person but using his remote viewing powers.

#228 CJDTrismegistus

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 07:44 AM

/blushing.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':blushing:' />

Nevertheless, Bloodraven is a dragon who was formerly wrapped in "smoke." In addition, his personal sigil was a white dragon breathing fire. That would cover the "roar a river of fire" part.

ETA: The connection to Bloodraven could be temporal, as well. Bran and his companions were going to set off North as soon as they could get out of WF safely.

Heh, wouldn't it be funny if Summer were having a Mel-like vision of the future in the flames of Winterfell? So then what he saw could be both the actual fire and smoke and a "dragon" of whatever sort.


All joking aside I think it's a really good theory. I like it a lot better than the other interpretations.

Bloodraven said to Bran that he has been watching him all his life, and I was thinking that he may have been the one who actually sent the Direwolf that was the mother of the pups that the Stark children adopted, and therefore could have a strong connection to them. Although there is no evidence for this it would be a logical move for him to protect Bran and what better way than sending him his own personal body guard in the form of a direwolf.

I have to say, I'm really enjoying this thread!

#229 Dr. Pepper

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:35 AM

I don't understand this huge leap you seem to think there is between man claw and winged serpent. A wolf isn't a tool user so he would have to liken a tool to its function. Wolf claws are weapons, swords are weapons. On the other hand a wolf would know what a serpent is, and recognize wings from a bird. How is winged serpent then such an incredible jump? Even if you claim winged serpent is too literal, the fire is described as fire, because the wolf recognizes fire.

This doesn't really make sense to be. First, we aren't seeing this solely through Summer's dumb wolf mind and it's not a wolf dream. This is Bran's POV. He's warged into Summer.

Second, Summer/Bran recognizes fire, why wouldn't he also recognize smoke and simply call it that. Why wouldn't he recognize swords and call it that also? Bran has also seen dragons, in his first wolf dream while he's in a coma. So why not just call it a dragon. When Bran is attacked by the wildlings, he does liken their spears to serpents. Her long spear was a steel-headed serpent...Other weapons, like swords, have been likened to serpents as well. I'm not sure why it's difficult to make the leap that this winged snake is just another type of weapon, like a burning arrow.

To me, it's an incredible leap to assume this description of a winged snake, in the middle of describing the destruction of Winterfell where many people are present, to be a dragon when it's never mentioned or hinted at again. It's quite a while after the fires die down that Bran is pulled back awake in the crypts and he still tells them about the fires, the men, the swords and the death immediately. Why not also mention a winged snake that he saw if he thinks it was something so unusual? I can get on board that this can also be a greenseeing or prophetic vision and everything mentioned is meant to be some sort of foreshadowing, but not that this was an actual dragon that no one sees or hints at.

#230 Winter gives me wind

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 08:43 AM

To be fair, I don't know much about what an ice dragon is, I have not read the other GRRM works, but it seems to me "roaring fire" would go against what an Ice Dragon would technically be, as I've said before and I'm not sure I've gotten an answer on.


In work here so can only answer this one question for now (will be back later to join in the main discussion though, it's pretty awesome).

It's completely off the top of my head but couldn't an ice dragon be a dragon that breathes something like liquid nitrogen that would instantly freeze anything it touches (though I suppose that might actually be spitting)? Either that or maybe it's breathe is just so cold it freezes stuff. As I said, off the top of my head but I like the idea.

Edit - I don't actually believe Bran sees a literal dragon in this vision/dream anyway just thought I'd describe what an ice dragon could be.

Also, maybe the dragon in Winterfell is Jon. He could be a Targ and grew up in Winterfelll - Dragon in Winterfell?

Edited by Winter gives me wind, 25 September 2012 - 08:46 AM.


#231 CJDTrismegistus

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 12:45 PM

This doesn't really make sense to be. First, we aren't seeing this solely through Summer's dumb wolf mind and it's not a wolf dream. This is Bran's POV. He's warged into Summer.

Second, Summer/Bran recognizes fire, why wouldn't he also recognize smoke and simply call it that. Why wouldn't he recognize swords and call it that also? Bran has also seen dragons, in his first wolf dream while he's in a coma. So why not just call it a dragon. When Bran is attacked by the wildlings, he does liken their spears to serpents. Her long spear was a steel-headed serpent...Other weapons, like swords, have been likened to serpents as well. I'm not sure why it's difficult to make the leap that this winged snake is just another type of weapon, like a burning arrow.

To me, it's an incredible leap to assume this description of a winged snake, in the middle of describing the destruction of Winterfell where many people are present, to be a dragon when it's never mentioned or hinted at again. It's quite a while after the fires die down that Bran is pulled back awake in the crypts and he still tells them about the fires, the men, the swords and the death immediately. Why not also mention a winged snake that he saw if he thinks it was something so unusual? I can get on board that this can also be a greenseeing or prophetic vision and everything mentioned is meant to be some sort of foreshadowing, but not that this was an actual dragon that no one sees or hints at.


Bran has been wolf-dreaming with Summer for 3 days and is experiencing the events as a wolf more than a boy. Jojen warns him that the more time he spends warged the more the wolf will control him. At this point he's really not in control as he's just dreaming rather than warging - this is why the descriptions are more wolf than man.

In the first dream where he sees the dragons stirring in Asshai he's not wolf dreaming, so all the visions are experienced by Bran rather than through Summer and therefore he describes things in a human way.

As to the fact that he doesn't mention the dragon when waking up - he's not eaten anything for 3 days and is quite delerious when he comes round. He's also just witnessed his family home being destroyed and the horrific sounds of the men being killed and all the women of Winterfell being lead away by Ramsay -

"Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams"

That must've been a bit distressing for Bran, and it may have pushed the thought of the great winged snake out of his mind. As you say yourself, he's wolf-dreaming for some time after the event and when he eventually woke up, Meera mentioned that he seemed pretty distressed in his dream -

"You were thrashing, making terrible noises. What did you see?"

I think the horrifying things he saw made him forget about the brief appearance of the dragon.

Summer is quite a distance away from Winterfell when the winged snake appears, watching the sack accross open fields so it's not clear where the dragon is in the sky in relation to Winterfell - it might not have emerged directly from the castle and that may be why Ramsay and his men might not have been able to see or hear it....that and they're all too busy killing, raping and pillaging amongst the general chaos that is Winterfell at this point.

#232 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:30 PM

Bran has also seen dragons, in his first wolf dream while he's in a coma.


Bran has seen 'winged shadows', but we have no indication of how clear his flight with the three eyed crow was.

So why not just call it a dragon. When Bran is attacked by the wildlings, he does liken their spears to serpents. Her long spear was a steel-headed serpent...Other weapons, like swords, have been likened to serpents as well. I'm not sure why it's difficult to make the leap that this winged snake is just another type of weapon, like a burning arrow.


It seems like you're saying that Bran has full wits about him while in summer. The reference to 'man claws' is pretty clear evidence to me that he does not, later in the book while warging summer Bran makes a comment something like 'there were as many men as the toes on a man pawn' in reference to the dead crows beyond the wall. Why wouldn't Bran/Summer just say 5 in that case? The big leap here for me is that he didn't just see a 'winged serpent' he sees a 'great winged serpent'. A great flaming serpent would be a strange description for an arrow that is about the size of a snake. On the other hand it would be a reasonable description of a palintone or balista shot, but there is no reason for there to be any siege equipment set up. It isn't a siege, they've taken winterfel. They're burning it and puting all the men to the sword. A flaming spear? Why would someone light a spear on fire when they have to grasp it to throw it?

So, why doesn't Bran say "Hey I saw a dragon"(if it was in fact a dragon)

- He thinks dragons are extinct. He saw 'winged shadows' to the east in his flight with the 3 eyed crow, meaning he didn't identify them as dragons, otherwise he would have called them dragons.
- He only caught the briefest glimpse of it. Once when i was watching TV I thought I saw someone sitting in the chair in the corner of my room. When I looked, there was nothing there. I didn't go and tell everyone that I saw a ghost though! He may simply think it was his imagination. I've considered that this is the same thing, however random things tend not to happen in books, and I can't think of anything that fits the description given.
- He didn't immediately return to the real world. He hides and waits for Dawn, which is hours later, so it's not fresh on his mind.
- He doesn't attempt to return to the real world, he is forcibly awakened
- He has been warging summer for 3 days, with out food or water except the honey which Jojen and Meera were pouring down his throat. He's practically delirious and can barely speak.
- Perhaps 'Wolf dream' is more like a real dream than in name only. When a person wakes from a dream they can't always remember every detail of the dream.

Edited by Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik, 25 September 2012 - 02:59 PM.


#233 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:31 PM

...


Doh, I started typing mine, and then had a conference call. I see you covered everything I wanted to and more. Apologies for the duplicate /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

#234 Tharvot

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 03:18 PM

In the D&E stories, a dragon appearing in a prophetic dream always refers to a Targaryen, so I think Jon will be the dragon in Winterfell too.

(Although an ice dragon would be totally cool.)


Well if the theory is correct, he is part Stark as well, so there's your "Ice Dragon"

#235 Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:30 PM

Bran has seen 'winged shadows', but we have no indication of how clear his flight with the three eyed crow was.


Whoops, he does explicitly state dragons.

#236 Snarks vs Grumkins

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:10 PM

if I could put in my two cents.....

why on earth would anyone think it was a real dragon when this series uses misinterpretation and sybolism at almost every turn. If the dragon in winterfell is to be taken as a literal dragon, why don't we take anything else so literally? Should we assume the stone dragons on dragonstone are real becuase Mel thinks she can wake them? No. Why would we assume what the wolf was seeing was a real dragon? Because an animal with limited intelligence says it is? I don't think so.

#237 Gauis Julius Caesar

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

I have to disagree...If a fully grown or even baby Dragon is flying through the sky over countless villages and holdfasts, there would at the very least be accompanying gossip and tales. The fact that Varys and others hear rumors of Dragons on a different continent speaks to the fact that this is not an event that would go unnoticed or unremarked on. It's difficult to miss a huge flying creature blotting out the Sun above, especially when the creature would most likely have to of passed over several villages along the way to it's destination.

If you couldn't tell from this, I believe the vision is Summer the wolf interpreting either smoke from burning buildings or the comet itself, not an actual dragon. However, I would not be surprised if this "vision" has prophetic connotations to some kind of "Dragon" being able to be woken in Winterfell, in connection with Osha's off-handed aside bout making enough noise to wake a Dragon.

. Know how it's constantly mentioned that lands scorched and all the people dead or "missing"? It is completely plausible that in the middle of turmoil and war that a dragon wipes out an isolated village leaving no one behind to spread the tale. And if people come across the village "oh well, was either lannisters or starks"

#238 Men in their cups say...

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:19 PM

I agree that George's Iron claws comment is definitely just his way of neither confirming or denying. Winged serpent breathing a river of flame sounds exactly like a direwolf describing the only dragon its ever seen....
the North is extremely large and scarcely populated. Its plausible that nobody has yet noticed the dragon....and lived to tell about it at least....

Edited by Men in their cups say..., 13 November 2012 - 11:43 AM.


#239 Tagganaro

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

. Know how it's constantly mentioned that lands scorched and all the people dead or "missing"? It is completely plausible that in the middle of turmoil and war that a dragon wipes out an isolated village leaving no one behind to spread the tale. And if people come across the village "oh well, was either lannisters or starks"


Yeah, certainly it's "plausible". We don't have an answer yet, so we're just speculating at this point. I've always looked at this as the evidence (or lack thereof) points to there being no actual dragon. Doesn't mean it's impossible or even implausible. I just think for this particular set of facts, it's more likely than not that a)if it was a real dragon, someone would notice and there would be accompanying rumors or gossip, and b)that if GRRM actually intended for it to be a real dragon, then he would use his literary license to remind us about it at some point, rather than ignore it for 3 straight books.

Now these 2 thoughts don't eliminate the possibility, they just (for me at least) make it more likely than not that there is no dragon. But it's certainly not impossible that there was one.

#240 Melonica Stormborn

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 07:06 AM

Very interesting topic. Personally, I would be happy either way (whether it's a real dragon or just a sign). The sacking of Winterfell could have been unknowingly a ritual to awaken a sleeping dragon or to hatch a dragon egg. Death and a lot of fire did the trick for Dany, and there was a lot of it in Winterfell. How this dragon managed to go stealth-mode for 3 books is entirely up to GRRM to explain if this is the direction the book is going, although the argument about him not reminding readers about it is pretty compelling.

Symbolically, if it is about Jon (the suspected Targaryen of Winterfell), the image could be a sign pointing to the start of a new milestone in Jon's life. I presume It's about the same time that Jon killed Qhorin and was taken to Mance. The only thing I don't get is why there is such a need for a symbol for Jon in the midst of an event that is seemingly unrelated to his parentage or even his predisposition at that time, unless it is really a sign from Bloodraven to go North, beyond the wall, where two Targaryens (Jon and Bloodraven) are located. They did almost have contact with Jon, and Summer saved him (if not for Summer, Jon may not have made it back to Castle Black). Among the Stark kids Bran has the most potential to connect to Jon's storyline and it will explain a lot if Bloodraven's machinations involve Jon (that's another crackpot for another day).

Seriously, there is nothing conclusive about this passage, it's like trying to prove a UFO sighting. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />