Dragon in Winterfell - What does this mean?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

For everyone saying its not a dragon because Bran never mentioned when he woke. Well he hasn't talked about the 'heart of winter' that scared him shitless when flying with the three eyed crow either. Are we disputing that as well?

[FittleLinger]

Wow, guys...

msheafer - you are using inductive logic, while me, some other guys and especially Taganarro are using deductive.

You want it to be a real dragon so much, that everything seems to point you that way when it doesn't, and you resort to means like "prove that it's not a real dragon". While the others are being objective and using deductive logic, stating a number of logical statements and arguments that point the other way. A dragon keeping a low profile? Seen through the eyes of a wolf?

OK, from all the evidence, there is no any piece of proof there is a real dragon, while there is plenty of circumstantial evidence there isn't. This means there is no dragon. Unless proven otherwise.

This is how it works everywhere in the world - when two parties are arguing whether or not something exists, the one that claims it DOES exist should present proof to the one that claims it Doesn't not the other way round. Your "Prove that it's not a real dragon, prove that it didn't eat in Winterfell, prove that noone has heard of it, proof that even if really noone has heard of it, it wasn't in stealth mode" attitude is utterly moronic.

No offence.

PS. That's kind of like the "Ned warged Ilyn Payne upon beheading" which of course should read "We would so much like Ned to be alive, that we are ready to take any bullshit".

[msheafer33]

It's not a dragon or we would have heard about it since then, or at least heard stories about it. Dragon's need to eat, people would notice a big ass dragon coming near their farms for food.

It amazes me that people consider this an argument, when right behind Winterfell, are well over 100,000 square miles of forest, largely uninhabited, filled with wolves, and presumably, also with game for the wolves to hunt.

[CJ McLannister]

Bran would have woken up and been like - "Holy shit, guys! I just saw a Dragon!"

That's how I feel about it. He's a kid who grew up with fantastical stories. Seeing a real dragon in the place where he has lived his entire life would have been significant for him. I can accept that he doesn't always remember his wolf dreams- we know he doesn't remember to do things in his wolf dreams- but I just can't imagine him shaking off a dragon unless he knows it was just an illusion of some sort.

As for the Heart of Winter, I don't think he really understands what he's seeing there (nor do I), and he's seeing it along with other visions of things that are not "real".

[msheafer33]

msheafer - you are using inductive logic, while me, some other guys and especially Taganarro are using deductive.

I don't understand your use of these terms. The text reports (through Bran/Summers POV) the presence of a winged snake that roars a gout of flame. All I have done is taken the text at its word.

We have direct textual evidence of something that would reasonably be called a "dragon". I find speculation that this is not real, because otherwise MORE evidence would exist, is illogical, and largely derived from invented premises. Particularly in light of the fact that the North is sparsely inhabited, we don't know how large the dragon is, where the dragon went. In particular, there are over 100,000 miles of largely uninhabited forest directly behind Winterfell.

I think you are all projecting the logic of the information age on a time and place where it is not appropriate. Admittedly, there are alot of ravens flying about, and GRRM occasionally uses these to spread news across hundreds and thousands of miles to an extent that is not necessarily realistic. But it does not follow from this that we will necessarily know, with greater certainty than he has already hinted at, things that GRRM does not yet want us to know.

You want it to be a real dragon so much, that everything seems to point you that way when it doesn't, and you resort to means like "prove that it's not a real dragon". While the others are being objective and using deductive logic, stating a number of logical statements and arguments that point the other way. A dragon keeping a low profile? Seen through the eyes of a wolf?

OK, from all the evidence, there is no any piece of proof there is a real dragon, while there is plenty of circumstantial evidence there isn't. This means there is no dragon. Unless proven otherwise.

This is how it works everywhere in the world - when two parties are arguing whether or not something exists, the one that claims it DOES exist should present proof to the one that claims it Doesn't not the other way round. Your "Prove that it's not a real dragon, prove that it didn't eat in Winterfell, prove that noone has heard of it, proof that even if really noone has heard of it, it wasn't in stealth mode" attitude is utterly moronic.

No offence.

Your extremely insulting opinions are noted. No offense is taken. I have an equally low opinion of your type of reasoning. I'm sure you will also take no offense.

[SJC]

It amazes me that people consider this an argument, when right behind Winterfell, are well over 100,000 square miles of forest, largely uninhabited, filled with wolves, and presumably, also with game for the wolves to hunt.

To be sure, it is theoretically possible that a dragon is feeding itself largely undetected in a lightly populated North...but not exceedingly likely. While there is game in Wolfswood (and wolves hunting them), they would be hidden from a flying predator's view by the dense forest canopy. Although the predator could still find food that way, it would be far easier to hunt from the cow, sheep and goat herds kept by humans. There may not be a lot of towns across the North, but there is plenty of evidence of small settlements and farmsteads; not to mention the Umbers' sheep herds that Jon tells Stannis graze all along the Kingsroad. Are we to believe that a large predator passed up all of this defenseless food...or that it has been ravaging the herds without mention, even while folks worry about food supplies in the coming winter? Just look at Dany's dragons outside Meereen; she locked them up because they were foraging from local farms (including small children). And this Northern dragon has supposedly been on the loose for over a year at this point with no further mention by GRRM.

My view, as others have stated above, is that the description was fanciful language told from the perspective of a wolf that lacked the understanding to describe what it was really seeing...an eruption of fire from a burning castle with a red comet behind it. Though, I believe it is symbolic foreshadowing either (1) as redriver stated, of obsidian deposits in Winterfell's geothermically actice lower crypts or (2) in Dunk and Egg-style, of a Targaryan (Jon) rising from Winterfell.

It is fun to theorize about a dragon in the North; it just seems highly unlikely.

[protar]

Wow, guys...

msheafer - you are using inductive logic, while me, some other guys and especially Taganarro are using deductive.

You want it to be a real dragon so much, that everything seems to point you that way when it doesn't, and you resort to means like "prove that it's not a real dragon". While the others are being objective and using deductive logic, stating a number of logical statements and arguments that point the other way. A dragon keeping a low profile? Seen through the eyes of a wolf?

OK, from all the evidence, there is no any piece of proof there is a real dragon, while there is plenty of circumstantial evidence there isn't. This means there is no dragon. Unless proven otherwise.

This is how it works everywhere in the world - when two parties are arguing whether or not something exists, the one that claims it DOES exist should present proof to the one that claims it Doesn't not the other way round. Your "Prove that it's not a real dragon, prove that it didn't eat in Winterfell, prove that noone has heard of it, proof that even if really noone has heard of it, it wasn't in stealth mode" attitude is utterly moronic.

No offence.

PS. That's kind of like the "Ned warged Ilyn Payne upon beheading" which of course should read "We would so much like Ned to be alive, that we are ready to take any bullshit".

Except you know, Summer actually saw a dragon and there's no evidence before or since of things being described so abstractly in a wolf dream. If you're not going to believe that there's a dragon when we straight up saw one, then why should hearing some farm hand mention it make any difference.

[Brewmaster]

It's not a real Dragon.

Why?

1. Bran doesn't think it's a dragon. He gives it not another thought or mention when back in his human skin. When he's seen other things of interest in Summer's skin, he's been fully aware of what they were when back in his own skin (Like when he saved Jon, for instance).

2. I tend to believe that it would have been seen by people in the region. Even though Ramsay put Winterfell to the torch, that doesn't mean that every person for miles around was killed.

3. On that note, there were at least 2 other people alive and outside during this same time and neither one ever mentions a dragon. Luwin is alive...sure he's practically dead and you could explain it away by him just being unconscious at the time, but you would think he'd have mentioned it to the group that there was a dragon about. Likewise, Wex is alive, unharmed, awake and fully observant about what's going on in the area.

Whether it was smoke, fire or the comet, whatever Summer saw was metaphorical, not a literal dragon. At absolute minimum 2 people we know of should have mentioned it, if it was anything else and that's assuming that it could remain unseen in the area afterward since the time that Winterfell was burned (what was that like a year ago now in story time?)

[7V3N]

Wow. First off everyone this is not personal. We all need to calm down and realize that this passage is intentionally vague. GRRM's vague comment is just what he does with everything. If he said yes to some things and "I can't say" for others, his answers would be easy to decipher. GRRM has taken a stance to be vague in interviews because he cannot answer questions that he intentionally made vague in the novels. It would just be counterproductive to his writing.

Now, there is no right or wrong answer on this subject. I believe it was a dragon that was hibernating under the hot springs of Winterfell. But I would not be angry if it was later revealed to be nothing but the comet. The point is GRRM wants us to suspect it is a real dragon. Just like he wanted us to think

Asha, Arya, the Hound, Beric, Brienne, Bran, Rickon, Osha, Hodor, Meera, Jojen, Davos, Davos again, Theon, and I am sure more

were all dead at some point or another. He just likes playing with our minds, so a vague dragon description from a direwolf could be nothing, or it could be everything. The point is, we have less than little to go off of.

It is possible for a dragon to be subtle. Dany's hide on the roof of the Great Pyramid in Meereen like bats. It is not impossible for a dragon to be quiet and undetected. And given our sample size of 3 dragons trained by a someone who has no idea how to train a dragon, we cannot assume all other dragons are the same.

[msheafer33]

To be sure, it is theoretically possible that a dragon is feeding itself largely undetected in a lightly populated North...but not exceedingly likely.

Given the vast size of the North, I'm not convinced that even Godzilla could be too far challenged to find a mountain valley where he could live undetected.

But let us suppose I take this argument somewhat seriously? Do you realize there is no information as to the size of the dragon in Bran's POV? If you give weight to this argument, why not conclude it must be a small dragon, rather than completely disregarding what the text tells you?

While there is game in Wolfswood (and wolves hunting them), they would be hidden from a flying predator's view by the dense forest canopy. Although the predator could still find food that way, it would be far easier to hunt from the cow, sheep and goat herds kept by humans.

Perhaps the dragon prefers to avoid human contact. Perhaps the dragon does not know about all those cows, sheep or goats, because flew north from Winterfell, chose a lair on a hill deep in the forest, and prefers to hunt nearby. I don't know how dense the canopy is (I assume it varies throughout the vast vast forest). Nor do I know if a dense canopy would necessarily interfere with the hunting strategies of this particular dragon. Maybe it likes fishing in forest lakes.

There may not be a lot of towns across the North, but there is plenty of evidence of small settlements and farmsteads; not to mention the Umbers' sheep herds that Jon tells Stannis graze all along the Kingsroad. Are we to believe that a large predator passed up all of this defenseless food...or that it has been ravaging the herds without mention, even while folks worry about food supplies in the coming winter?

There's too many unproven premises here. But the anwer is yes, I can believe all sorts of things. I can believe an intelligent dragon who deliberately avoids human settlements. I can believe an unintelligent dragon who deliberately avoids human settlements. I can believe an unintelligent dragon who accidentally avoids human settlements (by flying north, for instance). I can believe a dragon who does not attack sheep or goats because it is still too small. I can believe a dragon who flew to an offshore island, or an isolated mountain valley, and is now being worshipped as a god by the depraved locals. I can believe a dragon who chowed down on a handful of human corpses, and then went back into hybernation.

Just look at Dany's dragons outside Meereen; she locked them up because they were foraging from local farms (including small children).

These are 3 large dragons, they live in the middle of her city, and she happens to own them. So yes. Under the circumstance, it would indeed be surprising if Dany had never heard of these dragons. .

And this Northern dragon has supposedly been on the loose for over a year at this point with no further mention by GRRM.

Drogon just grabbed a queen, and then managed to disappear for a period of at least several weeks.

[SerLoin]

This was brought up in another thread but I don't have a link.

The "dragon" was most likely wolspeak for a flaming arrow. The wolf was describing the sacking of winterfell.

[Budj]

I am hopeful it is a dragon.

A wolf describing a winged serpent in one instance and "iron claws" (obviously swords) in another are kind of different to me....winged serpent was pretty detailed.

I am not wholly convinced that it is in fact a real dragon, but I think it is possible.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

This was brought up in another thread but I don't have a link.

The "dragon" was most likely wolspeak for a flaming arrow. The wolf was describing the sacking of winterfell.

It takes place after the sack though. Summer doesn't see anyone, and if I remember correctly they leave right afterwards

[The Hound of Ulster]

Not That i think there is a dragon at Winterfell but IF there was then I suppose one way of explaining it is that a certain Jon Snow theory is true and its his dragon that has hatched from the egg Ned brought back with him when Jon was a baby.

[7V3N]

This is from GRRM's The Ice Dragon:

Its mouth opened and a blue-white plume issued, a long cold streamer that hung in the air. It made no noise; ice dragons are silent.

So that conflicts with the roar, but did the roar make noise or was it just a roar of fire?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

This is from GRRM's The Ice Dragon:

So that conflicts with the roar, but did the roar make noise or was it just a roar of fire?

Its mouth opened and a blue-white plume issued, a long cold streamer that hung in the air. It made no noise; ice dragons are silent.

Oh dear, I like this.

[SerLoin]

The previous thread

Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Khal GoGo]

I don't get this argument that the Dragons decided to go into hiding or only flew at night. Thats not a Dragons style, or at the very least, not Drogons style, the only dragon that we've seen extensively. One might also beg the question of what 'fire as flesh' is doing choosing to stay in the icy north on the cusp of winter. And how it got there in the first place. My personal theory is that this event is metaphorically showing that the sacking of Winterfell, directly or indirectly has/will 'awaken the dragon' of the nearest Targ, aka Jon 'son of Rhaegar' Snow. :cool4:

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

It amazes me that people consider this an argument, when right behind Winterfell, are well over 100,000 square miles of forest, largely uninhabited, filled with wolves, and presumably, also with game for the wolves to hunt.

We've heard stories spread about much smaller things.

Completely plausible. A Dragon flies, a forest won't hide it and i'm pretty sure people would see some forest fires if a Dragon was hiding in them. At the very least we'd hear rumors involving a dragon in the North.

I guess we will agree to disagree.

[Shaggy]

Many think that it is just metaphorical imagery - a way of describing the smoke and fire pouring out of Winterfell. I tend to agree. It is an overly specific description, which leads people to wonder. However, if it were an actual dragon we would have heard more about it by now ; forests on fire, livestock being taken, small folk spotting it in the skies, etc...

I think it is real dragon, description is way too good. He went straight beyond the Wall, where he can do whatever he likes, even feast on Wildlings at Hardhome.

Another possibility is that it is a firewyrm, but I am more inclined to 100% dragon :D