42 replies to this topic

[sumant30]

Quote

Zoso's makes a fairly valid point in my opinion. I think there is a strong case that if the Horn of Joromun is not the one found by Jon at the Fist of First Men, then it is the horn that Victarion plans to use to bind the dragons to his will. The magical nature of Victarion's horn (which I vaguely remember being referred to as dragonbinder) means that it could have the properties to fell the Wall. Considering that some form of magic from the Children of the Forest went into building the wall, it would theoretically take a Horn with magical properties to bring down the Wall. The only horn that has so far been described as having magical properties is dragonbinder. However, I will concede that there is a huge hole in this belief because it would mean that somehow Euron, who gave dragonbinder to Victarion, would have located the horn somewhere not in Westeros.

The horn of jorumon was with Mance and he tells him that when jon comes to parley with him, and he tells him that if the NW does not give them safe passage he will blow the horn.So it is not possible that Euron found that horn and gave it to Victarion.

[andrew_]

sumant30, on 20 September 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

The horn of jorumon was with Mance and he tells him that when jon comes to parley with him, and he tells him that if the NW does not give them safe passage he will blow the horn.So it is not possible that Euron found that horn and gave it to Victarion.

No Mance was bluffing, Giantsbane tells Jon Snow that Mance never found it(Tormund at the time believes Mance is dead). Also Ygritte tells Jon it was a fake as well

[CJDTrismegistus]

The horn Euron found in Valyria was called Dragon Binder, as stated by its own glyphs.  The horn found by Mance has been burned by Melisandre and we don't really know what it was called.

I don't believe the horn Mance had was the Horn of Winter, but here is no evidence that the horn that Ghost found is the Horn of Winter either.  But as it was found in the stash of "anti-Other" objects it seems plausable that it has some importance, so for the time being it's the main contender.

My thought is that maybe Coldhands gave Benjen the horn, along with the arrowheads etc.  Benjen was camped out at the Fist of the First Men, in the process of brining them back to the Wall, when he and his rangers were attacked by Wights.  I guess he managed to get away and hide it before doing whatever he is doing at the moment.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Fully agree that the Horn is probably the one that Sam has, and that Jon found whilst on the Fist.  The Children of the Forest/ Benjen may have placed it there knowing that Jon would find it, though I am upmost positive that it was the Three Eyed Crow that got it to him.  Though unsure of what it is, I am sure that the Horn carries a stipulation because it's been clear in the series that GRRM counts magic with a cost whether it be blood, sacrifice, etc.  Whether the Dragonbinder is connected with the Horn of Winter is kind of unlikely in my opinion, just because binding a dragon to your will really doesn't have anything to do with the magic in the wall (or so we think).  

What I think is interesting is the two main sects of magic users.  Valyria was very much about fire and destruction, to where the men of the North were very much about protection and building.  Both Valyria and the Far North are places that only few have tread in recent memory, and both are places of magical power.

[Zoso6]

sumant30, on 20 September 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

The horn of jorumon was with Mance and he tells him that when jon comes to parley with him, and he tells him that if the NW does not give them safe passage he will blow the horn.So it is not possible that Euron found that horn and gave it to Victarion.

That wasn't the horn. Mance only wanted Jon to think he had the horn.

[all_Freys_must_die]

I wonder do you have to be near the wall or in sight of it (when you blow it) for it to have an effect? Like the Dragon binder horn. Its not like the wall has ears....

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

all_Freys_must_die, on 20 September 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

I wonder do you have to be near the wall or in sight of it (when you blow it) for it to have an effect? Like the Dragon binder horn. Its not like the wall has ears....

Me Too. I figued you would though. Probably close enough for the sound waves to touch it.

[Where Boars Glow]

andrew02, on 20 September 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

No Mance was bluffing, Giantsbane tells Jon Snow that Mance never found it(Tormund at the time believes Mance is dead). Also Ygritte tells Jon it was a fake as well

Just because Torrmund was not aware does not mean Mance never found it. Mance played quite a bit close to the vest

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Where whores go <&#045;, on 20 September 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Just because Torrmund was not aware does not mean Mance never found it. Mance played quite a bit close to the vest

Well if mance did find it it was deystroyed. I'm more inclined to believe tormund and that it was a goldent giant's horn. I could see the horn being the broken one jon found. Supposedyl after joramund blew the horn to wake giants from the earth it was broken so it couldn't sound again for when it sounded again the wall would fall.

[Knight of the Pennytree]

Side note. We know one horn can control dragons (song of fire) and the horn of winter (song of ice) "wakes the sleepers" what if the horn controls the Others in a similar way. What if the Horn has been found but not by mortal men, but by the Wights - and they have now woke dead...

[gogorath]

Dragonbinder could be the Horn.  If you were trying to melt the damn Wall, controlling a dragon wouldn't be your worst option.

I think Winds ends with the Wall coming down.

[Davos' fingertip]

gogorath, on 21 September 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Dragonbinder could be the Horn.  If you were trying to melt the damn Wall, controlling a dragon wouldn't be your worst option.

I think Winds ends with the Wall coming down.

yeah, Euron's poisoned gift to Victorian is bringing the wall down. Euron could want this for many reasons, maybe he wants Others to invade because of some hidden agenda. Plus, Victorian already found out that horn kills whoever blows it, and i don't think thats the 'poison' GRRM keeps refering too, because it would be too obvious. If Victorian does manage to bind dragons using it, it would make no sense as the gift is supposed to be poisoned and why would Euron trust his brother who hates him? Thats why i think its the horn of winter.

[DragonSpawn]

Couple of Q's...

In the OP it said Jon tried blowing the horn but it made no sound - i don't recall this happeneing. Can someone quote the passage?

Also, i find it a little strange that Moqorro can read the glyphs on the side of Dragon-binder... but no mention is made of the markings on the horn Mel burns... is it because they were runes rather than valyrian and therefore she couldn't read them? Why didn't Stannis get one of the watch or wildings who can speak the old tongue to read it first?

I personlly don't think the horn of Winter is there to bring down the Wall. The only direct quote of it being used i can recall is: "...Joramun blew the horn of Winter, and woke giants from the Earth". To me this says that originally there were Giants (the brothers and bane of the CotF) - we know from the 'last of the giants' song they were hunted by men, so presumably many died, and the song talks about the Wall that men put up. So to me this suggests there were a lot of dead giants north of the Wall ... so what if all these dead giants were brought back as Giant-wights but then lay dormant beneath the snow... until "Joramun blew the horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth"?? to rally an army to help defeat the night king?

So overall it seems to me that instead of Dragon-binder - the Horn of Winter should be called Other-binder or something like that... once it's blown the Others will return... and this is what i think happened with Benjen... he found the horn first... stole it.. blew it... and has since been harrassing the Wildlings and the useless NW with his army of Others... but he left the obsidian and the now broken horn to be found by Jon... because after all... Benjen would probs be working closely with Bloodraven to sort the realm out and put the rightful King in charge... by giving Jon and army of Wildlings and Others... (that's why i'm curious whether Jon actually blew the horn or not)

[andrew_]

DragonSpawn, on 21 September 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

Couple of Q's...

In the OP it said Jon tried blowing the horn but it made no sound - i don't recall this happeneing. Can someone quote the passage?

Also, i find it a little strange that Moqorro can read the glyphs on the side of Dragon-binder... but no mention is made of the markings on the horn Mel burns... is it because they were runes rather than valyrian and therefore she couldn't read them? Why didn't Stannis get one of the watch or wildings who can speak the old tongue to read it first?

I personlly don't think the horn of Winter is there to bring down the Wall. The only direct quote of it being used i can recall is: "...Joramun blew the horn of Winter, and woke giants from the Earth". To me this says that originally there were Giants (the brothers and bane of the CotF) - we know from the 'last of the giants' song they were hunted by men, so presumably many died, and the song talks about the Wall that men put up. So to me this suggests there were a lot of dead giants north of the Wall ... so what if all these dead giants were brought back as Giant-wights but then lay dormant beneath the snow... until "Joramun blew the horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth"?? to rally an army to help defeat the night king?

So overall it seems to me that instead of Dragon-binder - the Horn of Winter should be called Other-binder or something like that... once it's blown the Others will return... and this is what i think happened with Benjen... he found the horn first... stole it.. blew it... and has since been harrassing the Wildlings and the useless NW with his army of Others... but he left the obsidian and the now broken horn to be found by Jon... because after all... Benjen would probs be working closely with Bloodraven to sort the realm out and put the rightful King in charge... by giving Jon and army of Wildlings and Others... (that's why i'm curious whether Jon actually blew the horn or not)

"The warhorn is made from an auroch’s horn and is banded with bronze. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after Jon cleaned all the dirt out, he was unable to get any sound from it." Thats staright from the wiki, cbg getting my book out haha sorry

[DragonSpawn]

andrew02, on 21 September 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

"The warhorn is made from an auroch’s horn and is banded with bronze. On closer examination the horn had proved cracked, and even after Jon cleaned all the dirt out, he was unable to get any sound from it." Thats staright from the wiki, cbg getting my book out haha sorry

Ah -  i see... interesting... it's a bit crackpot but... what makes Jon think that there should be sound coming from the horn? Ghost is silent, the Ice dragon in the novella is silent... the others are silent... i wonder if Jon summoned the Others? lol! That would be a bit of an "oops" moment! Or whether he bound the Others to him in that moment?

At the end of the day Damphair said the dragon horn sound meant he could no longer hear the drowned god... it broke the communication link between them as a side effect...  i see no reason why this isn't a common function of the horns... maybe Joramun blew the horn of winter to break the connection between the Night King and his thralls and then took them for himself to overthrow him? I also have a crazy theory that the Dragon horn will break Arya's connection with Nymeria - allowing her to bond with one of Dany's dragons.

ETA: I wonder what the science is behind blowing a cracked horn? has anyone ever tried blowing a horn with a crack in it? does it not work at all or do you still get some sort of strange noise out of it?

Edited by DragonSpawn, 21 September 2012 - 06:08 AM.

[andrew_]

DragonSpawn, on 21 September 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

Ah -  i see... interesting... it's a bit crackpot but... what makes Jon think that there should be sound coming from the horn? Ghost is silent, the Ice dragon in the novella is silent... the others are silent... i wonder if Jon summoned the Others? lol! That would be a bit of an "oops" moment! Or whether he bound the Others to him in that moment?

At the end of the day Damphair said the dragon horn sound meant he could no longer hear the drowned god... it broke the communication link between them as a side effect...  i see no reason why this isn't a common function of the horns... maybe Joramun blew the horn of winter to break the connection between the Night King and his thralls and then took them for himself to overthrow him? I also have a crazy theory that the Dragon horn will break Arya's connection with Nymeria - allowing her to bond with one of Dany's dragons.

ETA: I wonder what the science is behind blowing a cracked horn? has anyone ever tried blowing a horn with a crack in it? does it not work at all or do you still get some sort of strange noise out of it?

We saw the whitewalers in the proluge of book 1 so i doubt he summoned them haha

[Knight of the Pennytree]

I like the idea that Jon will be an agent of winter, Maybe the best way to fight ice is with ice. Like fire with fire. Using the horn to control the others (undead creatures including humans giants wolves etc) to defeat the wights who are an evil race that want to cover the world In darkness.
At the moment we don't know for sure what the horn Jon found is or if it's significant at all, I thought at first it was just to give the finder a clue to who left the dragonglass there.
But yeh I think at the moment the wights control the undead army (and raise dead things) with the horn of winter. And the NW need to get it back. With both horns the powers of ice and fire will conquer the wights!

Bit crackpot. But yeh... Must be a connection with the title of the series and these two magical horns I jus hope there's a happy ending somewhere in this epic of epic series... Surely there will be at least one :cry:

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Davos, on 21 September 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

yeah, Euron's poisoned gift to Victorian is bringing the wall down. Euron could want this for many reasons, maybe he wants Others to invade because of some hidden agenda. Plus, Victorian already found out that horn kills whoever blows it, and i don't think thats the 'poison' GRRM keeps refering too, because it would be too obvious. If Victorian does manage to bind dragons using it, it would make no sense as the gift is supposed to be poisoned and why would Euron trust his brother who hates him? Thats why i think its the horn of winter.

I think it much more likely that its poisoned because euron already claimed the horn for himself.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Knight of the Pennytree, on 21 September 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

I like the idea that Jon will be an agent of winter, Maybe the best way to fight ice is with ice. Like fire with fire. Using the horn to control the others (undead creatures including humans giants wolves etc) to defeat the wights who are an evil race that want to cover the world In darkness.
At the moment we don't know for sure what the horn Jon found is or if it's significant at all, I thought at first it was just to give the finder a clue to who left the dragonglass there.
But yeh I think at the moment the wights control the undead army (and raise dead things) with the horn of winter. And the NW need to get it back. With both horns the powers of ice and fire will conquer the wights!

Bit crackpot. But yeh... Must be a connection with the title of the series and these two magical horns I jus hope there's a happy ending somewhere in this epic of epic series... Surely there will be at least one :cry:

Since when does fighting a fire with a fire work? I think that just makes more fire. Of course that saying comes from litterally fighting with flames. Fire arrows or bullets. But I think the fact that there is more than just two horns out there means more than one for fire. One for ice.

[DragonSpawn]

andrew02, on 21 September 2012 - 06:59 AM, said:

We saw the whitewalers in the proluge of book 1 so i doubt he summoned them haha

True. Nothing is certain - but i like to speculate - even if it is a bit crazy... and i didn't mean summonded them from their hibernation... i just meant summoned them to the Fist (if that was where he blew the horn?)

The full crazy theory is that:

• Tormund blew the horn first. Summoned them - hence the name "Tormund Hornblower". (Mance gets Tormund to blow the horn, much like Euron gets one of his commanders to blow dragonbinder - then they send the Others south to test the NW defences)
  
• Benjen stole and then blew the horn... turning the Others against the wildlings forcing them to flee to the Wall rather than march on it... then Benjen left the horn for Jon (could this be a parallel situation for Victarion... only without the stealing..?)
  
• Jon then blew horn and made the Others his and then went to join the wildling evacuation... the Others arrived at the FIST, didn't find Jon, so slaughtered whoever they found there - (possibly they know who are friends to Jon in the same way the Direwolves know who wants to hurt the Starks?) - Jon and his wildlings are not attacked by Others while he is with them...

Also, linking in with the Dragonbinder phrase: "blood for fire, fire for blood" - i wouldn't be suprised if the HoW was "blood for ice, ice for blood". So if Tormund had Stark blood from ages past... that might be why he blew it... even crazier would be if Tormund became an icy Other at this point... but when he tells Jon about the story of the 'kissed by fire' woman he lay with, how she was 'warm' and it saved him from the cold... this could be a hint that Tormund broke the Ice enchantment. Benjen as a sworn brother would not have this luxury so maybe is just running around like a cold-wight-like creature... or the Wildlings found him after and killed him... Jon shags Ygritte who is also 'kissed by fire' and maybe drives out the cold too... so instead of the Others running around with purpose... they are just following the most likely sources of blood and heat e.g. the gathering at Hardhome would draw them... much like Drogon was drawn to the fighting pit.

Another parallell is that: Dany's fearlessness gives her control over Drogon afterwards... (she KNOWS she is blood of the dragon) will Jons re-birth make him fearless too and allow him to claim the Others for good (since he will KNOW he is special)? ...We know the Night King's down-fall was brought on by his fearlessness? and the whole point of Ice & Fire is that "every song has it's balance" ... so why not a like for like...? but instead of a wip and dragon... Jon has Longclaw and the Others... if he finds himself in a similar situation to Waymar Royce... what if Jon slices off all the heads off the Others who attack him... maybe 7 of them? and then they submit to him... the slight variance on this would be that it's not Jon who claims them in the end... (since he shagged Ygritte he may have given up the Others...) but Bran instead...

The only reason i put this crappy crazy theory out there is that it is just subtle enough that it could be the sort of thing GRRM might go for... it kinda works with some of the parallels with Fire and helps make sense of some of Tormunds stupid stories... and it also makes Benjen the best NW brother there has been since in this scenario he would be a proper hero... but in keeping the the NW traditions "I shall win no glory" - in other words Benjens part is done... and noone will ever truly know what he sacraficed for the realm... there are a few holes in the theory - mainly that it's unclear whether the wildlings did or didn't find the horn, whether the HoW is the one Jon found and if it works even when cracked...  but once they are treating with the NW you would think they would keep it quiet if they did blow the horn... to prevent the NW killing all of them for bringing back the Others. Hehe!