149 replies to this topic

[Independent George]

Black Wolf Smith, on 21 January 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

2. Angel did have not only a good, but might be a perfect ending for that show.

Just so we're clear, because it's been much-debated - they're dead, right? They did a good thing, then went out with a blaze of glory against insurmountable odds? Because I knew plenty of people who insisted they could have won the fight, which in my opinion would have been a cheat and contrary to the whole theme of the show.

[Morpheus]

Before Dollhouse and Bones, and before Whedon became hit director, he had spoken about a possible Angel miniseries. A few years later they definitively said the plans fell through and Whedon plotted a comic mini series continuation instead. I never read it but it is considered "canonical".

http://en.wikipedia...._After_the_Fall

Edited by Morpheus, 22 January 2013 - 10:22 AM.

[Independent George]

Morpheus, on 22 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

Before Dollhouse and Bones, and before Whedon became hit director, he had spoken about a possible Angel miniseries. A few years later they definitively said the plans fell through and Whedon plotted a comic mini series continuation instead. I never read it but it is considered "canonical".

http://en.wikipedia...._After_the_Fall

Damn. I did not know about that. I guess the ending sucks after all.

Edited by Independent George, 22 January 2013 - 11:37 AM.

[Reposado]

summer_stark, on 21 January 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

Beg to differ. Was not happy with FNL ending--thought it was quite depressing, really--Riggins' life sucked and he ended up alone. Should've been w Lyla or at least Tyra. Everyone has plans except poor Timmy Riggins. He has some empty farmland, no income, no love, and a record. So sad I thought.

Saracen made a sweet gesture and Coach was a total prick. No not ever can you marry Julie. Instead of hey you guys are young...no rush.

And coach just bailed on his kids and left them to get screwed over in the merging of teams. Sure, some of the guys made the super team, but most will get screwed. yes it's nice he went with Tami, but it's still sad for those kids.

not everyone got a happy ending but for me it worked. and the last five minutes are one of my favorite sequences ever.

and riggins, did you think he would need anything other than texas forever

[summer_stark]

Reposado, on 22 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

not everyone got a happy ending but for me it worked. and the last five minutes are one of my favorite sequences ever.

and riggins, did you think he would need anything other than texas forever

Hahaha. Maybe not, but honestly, I thought he deserved better--much better.  And considering that he was my favorite character, it sort of ruined the finale for me, tbh. But I can see how others wouldn't feel that way--yes it was bittersweet, but for me personally, based on my character preferences, it was more bitter than sweet.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Independent George, on 22 January 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Just so we're clear, because it's been much-debated - they're dead, right? They did a good thing, then went out with a blaze of glory against insurmountable odds? Because I knew plenty of people who insisted they could have won the fight, which in my opinion would have been a cheat and contrary to the whole theme of the show.

While I agree it was a suicidal charge in to the abyssmal army of darkness that included a dragon, Angel, Spike are Vamps, and Illyria is a immortal being. Gunn and maybe Connor are were the 2 that had no chance to survive.

Now knowing about the comics, that kind of sucks but It doesn't take away from what was a great ending ep. The Characters stayed ture to both themselves, and to the story as a whole. I guess that is what I find is so disappointing in most series endings.

[kalbear]

It's maybe not so bad as you think.(spoiler for angel)

Spoiler

Gunn gets killed and becomes a vamp - with vengeance towards Angel on his mind. Wes comes back as a cursed  ghost. Angel becomes human. Connor goes and protects a neighborhood in LA. LA actually goes into hell, literally. I think Illyria goes off and kind of goes nuts, but it's been a while since I read it.

So they won, but it wasn't without a lot of cost.

[Black Wolf Smith]

kalbear, on 22 January 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's maybe not so bad as you think.(spoiler for angel)

Damn it, I will now to try and find it now.....

[Caligula_K2]

Nah, let's ignore that the Angel comics are considered canon. They're not the show, and the show ends perfectly, with all of our heroes about to die. I see no need to revise that.

As for Fringe: I finally caught up with this season, which was pretty mediocre for the reasons nearly everyone in this thread has already listed: Time travel paradoxes, the Observers act incredibly dumb, it feels like a season entirely disconnected from the rest of the show, etc... But it was also fun mediocrity, which is a hell of a lot more than season 4 had going for it, and I didn't want to yell at the show for being absolutely stupid anywhere near as often as I did in season 4. That's a win. I mean, Fringe went off the rails in the middle of season 3 when the writers got convinced that being clever for clever's sake was fun, and the show never remotely reached the heights of its glory days, but this last season was much better than it could have been. And I give the writers credit for attempting to tie everything together- even in that last episode, it was nice to have that September/December conversation to acknowledge that the original 12 Observers didn't know about the invasion plan. Despite all the plotholes and time-travel paradoxes, that effort on behalf of the writers at least makes this a more intellectually satisfying final season than Lost's or BSG's.

I also did enjoy the finale, quite a lot more than I was expecting to. I mean, the plan is stupid and all the time paradoxes that it creates are pretty ridiculous. It stretches belief that the world is exactly the same with no Observers, considering how much September and the other 11 interfered in Fringe events... Including by erasing Peter from a timeline. But that's ok, because the finale was touching, entertaining ("because it's cool!"), and even cleared up a couple questions (in the December/September conversation), which is all I really wanted at this point. I appreciate that even though they did another timeline reset, they actually made this one have consequences and took out one of our main characters with it- it was pretty obvious to me that September was going to die and that Walter would have to take Michael to the future, but it still worked when it happened, thanks in particular to Noble's and Jackson's acting. The final shot was also a good choice to end the show on. And of course, I loved going back to the alternate universe one last time. That at least filled me with fuzzy nostalgia feelings.

I'm glad the show is done, but I don't regret watching it. Thanks for the good times, Fringe! At your best, you were one of the best shows on television. At your worst, you were pretty awful. But most of you was in between those two points, and provided me with a lot of mad scientist science fiction fun.

[red snow]

Caught up on the show. In typical fashion I decided to bail on it just before the episode where Etta dies which may have been enough to keep me watching. It worked fine watching the rest of the season in farily short succession though. There were a lot of nods to previous season and I liked that we got to see the other verse one last time.
It was hard to get my head around how fucking stupid the observers were. You don't need a super intellect to be suspicious of the people who worked alongside the fugitves for several years to think they may be helping them. Or that they may need to go back to their old lab for equipment, It was even more frustrating though when they showed how Peter and by extension the observers could see into the future and predict and manipulate a person's course. Wingguard (chief observer guy) even did this with Peter so why not at any other stage? I was hoping it would turn out the Fringe team were actually integral to the existence of the Observers but no such luck.

Not that the observers were te only stupid ones. They spent three episodes trying to build a time machine and only when it doesn't work does one of them think "why don't we use one of the Observers' time machines.

That aside I did wind up enjoying the season and John Noble and Joshua Jackson had some great moments. I think Peter as an observer could have actually deserved more breathing time as it was pretty cool. I hope John Noble winds up on some cable show where he can actually win some awards, I really think he has been amazing throughout and it's a crime he was never even nominated, let alone won, a golden globe or emmy for his work on Fringe.
It was kind of poetic in a sense that Walter's last act was saving the world by becoming someone else's father (as opposed to destroying one to steal a son). I get the impression that Walter is/was the scientist that made the actual breakthrough that led to the observers - maybe it was him all along but his time with Peter made him a better man rather than the one that would mistakenly think emotion was surplus to requirements,

I guess the whole season was essentially a what if in that none of them would recollect what happened in the future. Maybe Olivia with her super empathy would have picked up on it in the future. I also wonder if Peter wouldn't have tried to get Walter back? I guess upon finding the video he would realise it was for the best he was left there. It was still a better eding than the "fuck you" of "lost".

Overall it was a good show. It set out as being X-files the next generation but once we knew what Walter had done, It went from strength to strength until season 4 where things got a little messy but was still held together by some strong performances.

There's a bit of a sci-fi void now. Need to check to see if there's anything else coming up in the new year.