149 replies to this topic

[Reposado]

red snow, on 11 October 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

I think they've been making shit up as they go along but in that Deep Space Nine way where it somehow works out anyhow. I know they always intended for Peter to be Walt's alternate son so that much of the show was always planned along with the other universe. The current observer stuff was probably invented a season ago though and they could do with some kind of retcone to explain how they've gone from observers to conquerers.

well i think it makes sense in light of last season's finale\

they knew they were going back to a certain time to conquer. they had to go back to 2012 or later as they didn't want to screw up the timeline leading up to bell attempting to destroy the universe. they had to make sure that event played out as it had so that they didn't go back to a world that was then destroyed. so they observed time up until that point, while migrating to the point just after that important point.

i think this makes sense from what we have seen of the observers from the last few seasons but, i think this idea was fairly recent. i'm guessing that at the beginning, the events up to around the season 3 finale were planned-ish. peter being the alternate and the other universe stuff was part of the original plan

the observers plotline was likely not, as at the beginning, the observers did not "experience time like we do" .  i got the feeling that they existed in a timeless reality rather than time traveling "from" anywhere. hence being able to predict exactly what people say and move faster than bullets.

so probably a retcon, but i agree that it works.

[Underfoot]

I rewatched this episode last night and noticed a couple of things. One, the coordinates that Olivia repeats are not the ones that Astrid gives them. Two, the dates on the missing posters during the Peter/Olivia flashback scene are from 2033. Olivia also remembered Etta's disappearance differently than Peter did: Peter was wearing a brown shirt and the picnic blanket was green in Olivia's memory, but in Peter's he was wearing a grey shirt and the picnic jacket was red.

What's up with this? Has Olivia lost her photographic memory? Is it tied to her no longer having cortexiphan in her system? (Altlivia didn't have a photographic memory) Are there larger implications here? Is she stuck is some weird time loop (with regards to the "missing" posters dates)?

Thoughts?

Edited by Underfoot, 18 October 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Myrddin]

Underfoot, on 18 October 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thoughts?

Yeah. I'm not watching this show closely enough.

I enjoy the show, but for some reason Walter's voice make me very sleepy. I have a hard time staying awake every week, but manage to at least be conscious enough to follow along.

Obviously not enough to notice different details from the memories. I'm going to pay more attention this week (and have an espresso before it starts)

[lady narcissa]

Underfoot, on 18 October 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

Thoughts?

They were discussing these two things on TWOP's Fringe spoiler forum this weekend.  Last I saw one of the guys involved with the show tweeted the two different coordinates are intential.  So it does mean something.

No confirmation on the 2033 date, however.  Whatever it is will probably tie into the different color shirts from Peter's vs. Olivia's memory.

The other thing that was mentioned in that thread that I hadn't really thought of before was the son of Fauxlivia and Peter was called Henry.  Now Olivia and Peter's daughter is called Etta but named Henrietta.

[Underfoot]

lady narcissa, on 18 October 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

They were discussing these two things on TWOP's Fringe spoiler forum this weekend.  Last I saw one of the guys involved with the show tweeted the two different coordinates are intential.  So it does mean something.

No confirmation on the 2033 date, however.  Whatever it is will probably tie into the different color shirts from Peter's vs. Olivia's memory.

The other thing that was mentioned in that thread that I hadn't really thought of before was the son of Fauxlivia and Peter was called Henry.  Now Olivia and Peter's daughter is called Etta but named Henrietta.

Yeah, I caught the Henrietta thing too

I hope we find out what's up with Olivia's memory soon, though I doubt it. Whatever it is, I bet it has to do with the show's endgame. Maybe these little clues will build up in each episode? I'll have to keep my eyes peeled.

[Warg Arry]

OK that couldn't have just happen. I'm going to have to rewatch it. Does it track with the pre season trailers?

[Black Wolf Smith]

Yea, I liked the first couple of eps, but now, I just don't get whats going on. I guess I need to rewatch the end of last season.

[marwyn]

What did you guys not get?

Thoughts on the ep:

Spoiler

Well that was totally unexpected. Up until the last minute I really thought it could be a fake, we didn't actually see her die, we just saw the team mysteriously disappear within 20 seconds and a dead body that looked like Etta. But yeah, the final minute pretty much confirmed it, that she's dead.

However, I do think there HAS to be more to her death than just this, otherwise why focus so much on the flashback where she disappears in the first few episodes? It somehow has to be important that she disappeared, and what exactly happened to Olivia and Peter before they got ambered. There could be more going on than meets the eye. This is Fringe after all.

One thought: One of the producers said that Episode 9 will be the 'weird' episode this season, instead of nr 19 like in the previous seasons. (Because, obviously, there won't be an episode 19 this season). In season 2 it was the musical episode (Brown Betty). In season 3 it was the LSD partly-animated get-William-bell-out-of-Olivia's-body acid trip, and in season 4 the flashforward Letters of Transit. So it could be that in episode 9 something weird will happen or be discovered that somehow brings her back? This is the final season after all, no holds barred, they can really make it as weird as they want towards the end

Also: Good to see Broyles again. Missed him

Edited by marwyn, 28 October 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Underfoot]

Not sure what I think about what happened. On the one hand, it was a pretty brave move on the writers part, but on the other, I think this definitely means we'll be getting a reset. Walter's plan will end up being that the Observers are defeated, and then we'll flash backward in time as though they never had invaded, and one of the final shots of the series (if not THE final shot) will be of Peter swooping up little Emma in his arms.

I'm not really a fan of this idea. I'd rather they stay in the future and try to put back together a broken world, but with Etta dead in the future, it just doesn't seem likely.

Edited by Underfoot, 28 October 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Morpheus]

I definitely fear there will be a cop out reset ending

I also worry that the Observers will simply be defeated because emotions.

Edited by Morpheus, 28 October 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Reposado]

i liked it, if only because i didn't care for etta that much and would rather have the last nine episodes focus on the big three.

was shocked that it happened though, made for a moving episode, especially after reconnecting with broyles

[naz]

Morpheus, on 28 October 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

I also worry that the Observers will simply be defeated because emotions.

Exactly

Random Observer: "What is this 'love' you speak of?"

Another random observer: "Humans are so weak and pitiful. We shall annihilate them all! Muahahaha!"

[ZombieWife]

I don't see how travelling back to 2012 is a "cop out."  They've shown time travel before.  They've hopped universes. They've erased characters from the world's memory.  Fringe "goes there" on shit like this.  

Spoiler

My guess is that Walter's plans involve a time machine, or, some observer technology like the cone/bullet thing.  Since Observers have the ability to be in all times at once (or however they function), it wouldn't be stretch for humans to also utilize that technology.  

A few things I'm wondering . . .

What's going on in the other universe?  Same thing?  Or not?
If the observers are masters of time, then wouldn't September have seen this future and tried to warn Walter?  Or, August?  It seems like an anomaly in observer behavior and mythology.

My guess is that they go back to 2012 and try to stop the Observers from coming and taking over.  

Also, why did they take over?  I might have missed that somewhere.  Or, is there no answer yet?

[Morpheus]

It is a cop out IMO because you set up possibilities for the characters and the story and negate them by saying, "Never Happened."
It unsatisfying storytelling IMO, and the safest route possible. Just the worst cliche imaginable.
Far better if they deal with the consequences of the world they have established and defeat the Observers in a way in a way that takes some imagination, then try to find something positive in  what is left.
Yes, the daughter will be dead but it won't be as sappy and manipulative as if they end with them at the park again, but the Observers never take over.
This is just how I feel about it, I am sure many disagree.

I remember feeling them same way between certain seasons of Lost when some people assumed there would be a major reset.

Edited by Morpheus, 28 October 2012 - 06:37 PM.

[Underfoot]

The Observers took over because they ruined the world/future that they lived in. Ties into the fact that they're pumping CO2 into the environment now because they can't breathe "clean" air.

I don't like the idea of a reset because it will, in a sense, negate everything that's happened so far this season. A reset would mean that the Walter/Olivia/Peter/Astrid we're watching fight the observers right now will not exist by the end of the series. The Etta we know will never have existed. I know they did this at the beginning of season 4, but that somehow seemed less drastic, and in the end we still got "our" Olivia back, even if the original Walter/Astrid/Broyles etc remained lost.

It also seems a bit lazy.

We'll see, though. The ending could still be a complete surprise and even if they do a reset, it might be handled well enough that it turns out wonderfully.

[Warg Arry]

This is going to be a bit out there. Well here goes anyway.
What if all this isn't happening at all. I know there is no real reason for thinking that.

It's just Olivia is saying all the right things..And some wrong things. But she isn't reacting in a way I find familiar to her overall character.
The end scene of that ep. It just seems like the Olivia we know (and Peter) would have done whatever it took.
The observers are acting out side of everything we have learnt about them.

I'm wondering if this is all playing out in the mind(s)- There is still LSD and the Tank) of one of the key players.
Anyway it's sad Etta won't be able to teach the others how to not be read.


I liked that we got a reminder of the parallel world. Wonder if that will come into play later.

Edited by Warg Arry, 28 October 2012 - 07:25 PM.

[ZombieWife]

Underfoot, on 28 October 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

The Observers took over because they ruined the world/future that they lived in. Ties into the fact that they're pumping CO2 into the environment now because they can't breathe "clean" air.

So, mankind ruined their future and the Observers came back to fix it?  (Well, future "us" came back to fix it).  But, they're not really fixing anything because they're ruining our atmosphere now instead of way in the future.  Hmm.  Seems a bit off to me, but from what I remember of past episodes, yeah, this is consistent with that.  Maybe there is more to it that we aren't aware of.  

Quote

I don't like the idea of a reset because it will, in a sense, negate everything that's happened so far this season. A reset would mean that the Walter/Olivia/Peter/Astrid we're watching fight the observers right now will not exist by the end of the series. The Etta we know will never have existed. I know they did this at the beginning of season 4, but that somehow seemed less drastic, and in the end we still got "our" Olivia back, even if the original Walter/Astrid/Broyles etc remained lost.

Well, but they've already "reset" once when they erased Peter from existence (or, from after the time he and Walter fell through the ice).  Only Olivia remembered it all (or most of it, I'm guessing) thanks to her cortexiphan mojo. Everyone else may accept Peter now, but nobody but he and Olivia have those memories of seasons 1 and 2.  

I'm just saying . . . this is a show about Fringe science. They're going to frack with time and space.  What's the point of having fringe science if you don't use it when you're in a dire situation like this?  If you had time-travel technology, wouldn't you consider it?  I sure as hell would and I'm not sure I'd worry about others thinking I'm lazy.    Resetting wouldn't change the current team.  They'd all have their memories (except for Broyles), and the trauma to go with it AND they'd have to stop the Observers before 2015.  The way I think of it, if they do go back to 2012, they have information about the future and the real story isn't about what happened to Etta or Earth, but about how (and if) they will use that knowledge to change things.

A lot to cover, though.

Warg, that's an interesting premise about this not really happening.  I have found Olivia to be a bit . . . "out of it" this season myself.

Edited by ZombieWife, 29 October 2012 - 07:30 PM.

[Myrddin]

Morpheus, on 28 October 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

I also worry that the Observers will simply be defeated because emotions.

Next they'll bring in a Japanese pop sensation to sing while the heroes fight it out in deep space against the Zentradi Observers.

[Independent George]

Fringe should have ended last season with the (final) death of William Bell, the closing of the bridge between universes, the restoration of the timelines, and some other explanation of the observers. Everything about this season feels like the writers didn't expect to be renewed, and are just stapling some filler together so they can keep collecting paychecks.

This is the equivalent of slapping a Highlander sequel together by splicing in the script of another, unrelated sci-fi story which had nothing to do with the mythology established in the original.

Edited by Independent George, 30 October 2012 - 12:54 PM.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Warg Arry, on 28 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

This is going to be a bit out there. Well here goes anyway.
What if all this isn't happening at all. I know there is no real reason for thinking that¹.

It's just Olivia is saying all the right things..And some wrong things. But she isn't reacting in a way I find familiar to her overall character.
The end scene of that ep. It just seems like the Olivia we know (and Peter) would have done whatever² it took.
The observers are acting out side of everything we have learnt about them.

1 Oh God, please not another the last 2 season did not take place( Bobby???)

2. yes but it wasn't it something like 5 years from the last time we saw them and when they got frozen?

I also hope they don't do something to stop Peter from getting into the machine.