102 replies to this topic

[I'll pay the iron price]

Joffrey is a classic example of what happens when someone immature is put in a position of power!

[dtza]

I, on 07 October 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Joffrey is a classic example of what happens when someone immature is put in a position of power!

Joffrey kinda reminds me of those kids who do nothing but play Call of Duty and yell obscenities at other people through the microphone.


Sociopathic behavior aside, Joffrey's upbringing was pretty bad. His parents hated each other, Robert Baratheon would rather be drinking and having fun with whores, and Robert was embarrassed to have Joffrey as his heir. If Joffrey wasn't a sociopath, he'd probably be messed up in a different way.

His inability to tell right from wrong made things worse. The whole cat incident with Joffrey and Robert... I wonder how many similar instances have happened.

Edited by dtza, 09 October 2012 - 12:07 AM.

[Jolene Brown]

I think it's hard to feel sympathy for him when I think of how he gloated at the news of the Red Wedding.  That was Joffrey and Cercei's worst moment and they both have a lot.  Tywin was businesslike, Tyrion was saddened, and they were just two total sociopaths.  I have more sympathy for Cercei than Joffrey, but whenever people go overboard defending her, I think of how capable she is of truly delighting in other people's suffering, and it goes away pretty quickly.  The same for Joffrey.  If he had been even not a good person, but not a complete and total sociopath, his death wouldn't have happened.  The standards of behavior for a King are pretty low, but he was so gratuitously evil that he made it basically impossible for the Tyrells not to take him out.

[KARMAgrinder]

I just hate all Lannisters. Not an ounce of sympathy for any of them.

[Seed]

Schley the Bard, on 09 October 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

I just hate all Lannisters. Not an ounce of sympathy for any of them.

Not even for Tyrion, Myrcella, or Thommen?

[KARMAgrinder]

Seed, on 09 October 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

Not even for Tyrion, Myrcella, or Thommen?

Well, Tyrion is the best out of the adult Lannisters... Myrcella and Tommen could be spared, although I am not done with my reading and have no idea if they do anything that warrants their death in my eyes. But even Tyrion is a vile little thing, even with his honor. It wouldn't bother me if they received the Targ treatment.

[Gurkhal]

EDITED

Edited by Gurkhal, 09 October 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Jaime's Wench]

Schley the Bard, on 09 October 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

Well, Tyrion is the best out of the adult Lannisters... Myrcella and Tommen could be spared, although I am not done with my reading and have no idea if they do anything that warrants their death in my eyes. But even Tyrion is a vile little thing, even with his honor. It wouldn't bother me if they received the Targ treatment.

I hope you change your mind about Jaime during AFFC. He does some impressive shit.

[KARMAgrinder]

Jaime, on 09 October 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

I hope you change your mind about Jaime during AFFC. He does some impressive shit.

Time will tell. He has already surprised me a little with the reading I have done so far (I am not that far into the book). His past haunts him too much for him to ever be in my top 3 characters.

[KhaleesiDany]

I think Joffrey fits the profile of a sociopath. He has no empathy and relates to others purely through manipulation and control. If I feel bad for him in any way it is in a "How is there a God that can let people like this be born?" kind of way.

I don't think you can only blame it on his parents and the Hound--the Hound is way more sensitive than Joffrey; if he wants to pass something on to that boy it is swordsmanship. Blaming Joff's attitude on him is like saying for a kid who had one surly teacher that justifies him becoming a murderer. Cersei spoiled him but she obviously loved him very much. Robert didnt love him and Joff couldn't win his approval but his behavior runs deeper than being attributed to that. The way he treats Sansa on their date is the first hint something is wrong with him beyond being a spoiled brat. Then we find out about the kittens which is textbook sociopath behavior. His reaction too isnt "oh my dad beat me up for that maybe I did something wrong" its "my dad must be an asshole for not accepting my present." Also (small spoiler for beginning chapters of AFFC)

Spoiler

Joffrey abused Tommen, and I feel it is implied that it is sexual. Since we have no reason to believe this is cyclical that would mean Joffrey started it which is further evidence for pathological behavior.

I think Joff was born psychotic.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

I think he should be prisoner to Ramsay for let's say 2-3 months....and then I would feel sorry for him

[goongirl]

All I can say is that incest makes you crazy.....

[janedl]

I think that Joffrey would only have grown worse with age, and I'm not sorry he's dead, but I'm sorry for his suffering.  No one deserves to die in agony like that.  (No, not even Ramsay Bolton.)  Ned and Jon executed people, but they did it because it was necessary, not because they wanted to inflict suffering.  Enjoy inflicting pain, and you become like Ramsay and Gregor and Joffrey.

[Éadaoin]

I can't say that I mourned Joffrey's death. I know that he was a kid, but he did some terrible things.

[Wall Crusher]

Honestly, I was pleased when he finally kicked the bucket.  The only one that I sympathized with was Tyrion who ended up getting the short-end of the stick in the situation.

[Independent George]

Nope, not a single ounce. In fact, I fist pumped and did a little jig.

[Azureguy]

KhaleesiDany, on 09 October 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

I think Joffrey fits the profile of a sociopath. He has no empathy and relates to others purely through manipulation and control. If I feel bad for him in any way it is in a "How is there a God that can let people like this be born?" kind of way.

I don't think you can only blame it on his parents and the Hound--the Hound is way more sensitive than Joffrey; if he wants to pass something on to that boy it is swordsmanship. Blaming Joff's attitude on him is like saying for a kid who had one surly teacher that justifies him becoming a murderer. Cersei spoiled him but she obviously loved him very much. Robert didnt love him and Joff couldn't win his approval but his behavior runs deeper than being attributed to that. The way he treats Sansa on their date is the first hint something is wrong with him beyond being a spoiled brat. Then we find out about the kittens which is textbook sociopath behavior. His reaction too isnt "oh my dad beat me up for that maybe I did something wrong" its "my dad must be an asshole for not accepting my present." Also (small spoiler for beginning chapters of AFFC)

Spoiler

Joffrey abused Tommen, and I feel it is implied that it is sexual. Since we have no reason to believe this is cyclical that would mean Joffrey started it which is further evidence for pathological behavior.

I think Joff was born psychotic.

What evidence implies that "statement" about Joffrey and Tommen?

[KhaleesiDany]

Azureguy, on 10 October 2012 - 09:30 PM, said:

What evidence implies that "statement" about Joffrey and Tommen?

Its highly debated, and since everyone reads the book differently, I will not say that it did or did not happen. I will only say that when i read it, it seemed obvious to me what Tommen was talking about. Its a pretty "textbook" and by that I mean often cited response, to an experience like that. So, when I read the dialogue, because of my familiarity with the subject, that was the implication I took away.
This is from p. 181 of AFFC American paperback:

Spoiler

"A man can bear most anything if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...Go away inside."
Tommen considered that. "I ... I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy--"
"Joffrey" Cersei stood over them... "Your brother's name was Joffrey."

He gets interrupted before he can explain, so we'll never know what kind of "horrors" he was doing to him. It could really be anything. Whatever it was there's no evidence for Joffrey needing to continue behavior enacted on him by others so he is just bullying Tommen.

[Giantsbabe]

This comes down to the question whether a child of that age can be held responsible for his actions. I think not. Nevertheless I felt satisfaction when he died, but I guess fictional work allows you to put away morals for a time.

He had a terrible upbringing: The pressure of being the future king, a loveless father, a mad mother that spoiled him in a way only a queen could. And even if he was born with some mental disorder that made him "evil", would that be his fault? Would that give someone the right to kill a child? Obviously he was unfit for the throne and tyrannicide is usually considered a less grave form of murder, but there still should be room for pity, in my opinion.

[Azureguy]

KhaleesiDany, on 10 October 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Its highly debated, and since everyone reads the book differently, I will not say that it did or did not happen. I will only say that when i read it, it seemed obvious to me what Tommen was talking about. Its a pretty "textbook" and by that I mean often cited response, to an experience like that. So, when I read the dialogue, because of my familiarity with the subject, that was the implication I took away.
This is from p. 181 of AFFC American paperback:

Spoiler

"A man can bear most anything if he must," Jaime told his son. I have smelled a man roasting, as King Aerys cooked him in his armor. "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing...Go away inside."
Tommen considered that. "I ... I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy--"
"Joffrey" Cersei stood over them... "Your brother's name was Joffrey."

He gets interrupted before he can explain, so we'll never know what kind of "horrors" he was doing to him. It could really be anything. Whatever it was there's no evidence for Joffrey needing to continue behavior enacted on him by others so he is just bullying Tommen.

Interesting, I took it as physical and verbal abuse, as I saw no other evidence of such a thing.