389 replies to this topic

[Bran the Deciduous]

Dragon greyscale, on 04 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wasn't Mereen a desperate attempt to avoid a 5 year gap or something like that? That doesn't sound like a grand idea of a literary genius. It sounds like plan B.
Plus, they've aged the characters on the show so there's no reason for Dany to "mature" back East anymore. Have some faith in D&D and loosen the chain a bit. GRRM is not god.

No. He put her in Meereen before scrapping the gap. And Meereen isn't about maturing per se, its about Dany realizing what sort of ruler she wants to be. I don't think age matters. She'll still be trying to rule for the first time whether she is 15, or 18.

[Le Cygne]

MrsManderly, on 04 October 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

-  cut out Arya's time with the BWB and the Beric/Sandor duel and just have Sandor abduct her while she's fleeing with Gendry and Hot Pie (I know people are fans of the Beric/Sandor duel in the books, but it does not seem to have a big impact on future plot if we lose that)

Oh, the pain I am feeling at the thought of this.  This is where the Hound says:

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"Well bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses.  I'm the same as you.  The only difference is I don't lie about who I am.  So kill me, but don't call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don't stink. You hear me?"

Also just the thought of cutting things when they're going to have to wait for the last book to be written, why.  So they can make things up later?

[Ty3009]

Juanvito, on 03 October 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Replacing Jeyne P with Talisa as fake Arya would be weird: "Damn, the girl is all grown up now. And also got an awesome tan".

I should have been clearer in my original post.  I think it's a good idea to completely cut out Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya.  It's a silly plotline that adds nothing and would be far more trouble than it's worth for the show.  Instead, I think that Talisa should be forced to marry Ramsay after the RW.  This is a callback to Ramsay claiming Lady Hornwood's lands in the book by marrying her.  This will "legitimize" the Bolton claim to Winterfell.  More importantly, it will add another established character into Theon's story.  It will be a direct callback to Theon's relationship with Robb.

[protar]

Ty3009, on 04 October 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I should have been clearer in my original post.  I think it's a good idea to completely cut out Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya.  It's a silly plotline that adds nothing and would be far more trouble than it's worth for the show.  Instead, I think that Talisa should be forced to marry Ramsay after the RW.  This is a callback to Ramsay claiming Lady Hornwood's lands in the book by marrying her.  This will "legitimize" the Bolton claim to Winterfell.  More importantly, it will add another established character into Theon's story.  It will be a direct callback to Theon's relationship with Robb.

I can actually see that happening tbh. But how's it going to work with Talisa's character. She's not a meek little girl; for better or worse she's been written as a sassy badass wonderwoman. There's no way she's not going to stand up for herself and with Ramsay that'll get her killed very early on. So the plotline can't logically work without either changing Talisa's character and being inconsistent, or changing Ramsay's character, thus reducing his scare factor and forcing the show to warp around Talisa.

[PatrickStormborn]

protar, on 05 October 2012 - 02:01 AM, said:

I can actually see that happening tbh. But how's it going to work with Talisa's character. She's not a meek little girl; for better or worse she's been written as a sassy badass wonderwoman. There's no way she's not going to stand up for herself and with Ramsay that'll get her killed very early on. So the plotline can't logically work without either changing Talisa's character and being inconsistent, or changing Ramsay's character, thus reducing his scare factor and forcing the show to warp around Talisa.

Jeyne Poole certainly wasn't a meek little girl until she got taken to Littlefinger's brothel, and Theon certainly wasn't meek until the fall of Winterfell. One event can really make all the difference. By this point in the series, Talisa's husband will be dead. Whether or not she's a "badass" is irrelevant -- she'll still grieve for her husband, blame herself, etc. They don't have to make things as extreme as they were in the book. All they need to do, really, is have Ramsay forcibly marry her, and then lock her away before Theon eventually helps her escape.

[Brandon Martell]

Noelle Snow, on 01 October 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

As shocking as Tyrion killing Shae would be, this scenario might actually work and would make sense. Perhaps they could use Ros in place of Shae dying in Tywin's bed.

That will be completely pointless. Why would Tyrion kill Ros for sleeping with his father?

Walder Waters, on 01 October 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Despite all negative critics regarding the changes on Shae and Jeyne/Talisa I don't think that they changed it without a reason (in the meaning of necessity!) and I actually liked what they made of it.

I don't think the Shae changes were that bad. I prefer if they didn't do them, but I don't mind them much. What really ruined Shae was the actress, not the changes.

PatrickStormborn, on 05 October 2012 - 02:12 AM, said:

Jeyne Poole certainly wasn't a meek little girl until she got taken to Littlefinger's brothel, and Theon certainly wasn't meek until the fall of Winterfell. One event can really make all the difference. By this point in the series, Talisa's husband will be dead. Whether or not she's a "badass" is irrelevant -- she'll still grieve for her husband, blame herself, etc. They don't have to make things as extreme as they were in the book. All they need to do, really, is have Ramsay forcibly marry her, and then lock her away before Theon eventually helps her escape.

Jeyne Westerling is Robb's widow. I'm pretty sure Jeyne still has a role in the story (in WoW+DoS) that's more important than Jeyne Poole's. You can't replace Jeyne Westerling's role with someone other than Telisa.

Edited by Brandon Martell, 05 October 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[lightbringer333]

Noelle Snow, on 01 October 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

As shocking as Tyrion killing Shae would be, this scenario might actually work and would make sense. Perhaps they could use Ros in place of Shae dying in Tywin's bed.

in tv show Shae character is like she is totally in love and loyal to tyrion. may be on HBO they might show in diiferent way. something like Tywin forcefully brings Shae and fck her and tyrion misunderstands and take it as betrayal and kills Shae without listening her.

[ogremage]

kinghodor29, on 05 October 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

in tv show Shae character is like she is totally in love and loyal to tyrion. may be on HBO they might show in diiferent way. something like Tywin forcefully brings Shae and fck her and tyrion misunderstands and take it as betrayal and kills Shae without listening her.

I hope not, the parallels to the Tysha situation would make that ridiculous.

[Dragon greyscale]

Le Cygne, on 04 October 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Also just the thought of cutting things when they're going to have to wait for the last book to be written, why.  So they can make things up later?

I see your point and I'd agree if ALL the existing material is worth a close adaptation. I don't think that's the case. Slower pacing and endless worldbuilding works for books. For a visual medium, not so much.
Also, I doubt that the show will still be airing when GRRM finishes the series. They should reduce their dependency on Martin's pace. That way, they can satisfactorily cover the broad strokes of the story within their own time schedule. Nothing is holding Martin back to finish his books but himself. That's not the case for the TV show (ratings, execs etc). It's a sad reality but television is not made for patient people.

[The Monkey]

PatrickStormborn, on 04 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Shorten Sam's journey to Oldtown. All that needs to remain are: his discovery that Jon switched the babies (unless they scrap that?), telling Aemon of the dragons, Aemon's death, sleeping with Gilly, and arriving in Oldtown.

I don't know about this. Seeing has how little the characters interact as it is, why miss out on the Sam/Arya meeting in Braavos? Sure, it's brief and plot-wise pointless, but when important characters' path cross, it's best to show it.

Ty3009, on 04 October 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I should have been clearer in my original post.  I think it's a good idea to completely cut out Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya.  It's a silly plotline that adds nothing and would be far more trouble than it's worth for the show.  Instead, I think that Talisa should be forced to marry Ramsay after the RW.  This is a callback to Ramsay claiming Lady Hornwood's lands in the book by marrying her.  This will "legitimize" the Bolton claim to Winterfell.  More importantly, it will add another established character into Theon's story.  It will be a direct callback to Theon's relationship with Robb.

The whole point of Bolton marrying "Arya" wasn't to give House Bolton the right the rule the North, that had already been done by royal decree, as Roose had been named Warden of the North, it was to ease the transition of power for the other Houses by having the Boltons and Starks intermarry. It was done purely for appearance's sake, and that wouldn't really work if Ramsay married Robb's wife.

[Brandon Martell]

PatrickStormborn, on 04 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

No separate story for Quentyn -- he's not relevant as a character unless he's contributing to Dany's story.

He frees the dragons and shows that Doran Martell was doing something. All Doran's actions would be meaningless without "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood," and that would be meaningless without sending Quentyn. It doesn't have to be long. It's all 5 scenes of 1) on his way to Mereen 2)Going with the Windblown (or they could scrap that) 3)Meeting Dany 4)Tattered Prince 5)Unleashing the dragons.
And I will be very mad if they remove Quentyn's story. He's one of my favorite characters.

PatrickStormborn, on 04 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Shorten Sam's journey to Oldtown. All that needs to remain are: his discovery that Jon switched the babies (unless they scrap that?), telling Aemon of the dragons, Aemon's death, sleeping with Gilly, and arriving in Oldtown.

What else is there? Fighting Dareon and briefly meeting Cat? I guess they could scrap it, but I'd rather if they scrap sleeping with Gilly. I'd rather not scrap anything. His story isn't that long.

Edited by Brandon Martell, 05 October 2012 - 07:54 AM.

[Silverx2]

they need to keep Dareons run in with Cat of the Cannals. Maisie is the best young actress on the show the more they give her to do the happier i am as a viewer.

[Silverx2]

Brandon Martell, on 05 October 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

And I will be very mad if they remove Quentyn's story. He's one of my favorite characters.

I'm curious, what is it that he does that makes him one of your favorites. Granted its been a few months since i read the book but he gets told to go, he goes, he loses pretty much everything, joins up with merc army, eventually makes his way to dany and gets laughed at, shot down, and told to go home. Then he decides hes going to try and prove he's worthy by literally getting his face melted off. Quentyn was a joke, the male equivalent of sansa stark in book 1.

[Jolene Brown]

They may yet surprise me, but currently, I'd put the chance of Tyrion killing Shae in the show at about .01%.  Maybe smaller.

[Brandon Martell]

Silverx2, on 05 October 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

I'm curious, what is it that he does that makes him one of your favorites. Granted its been a few months since i read the book but he gets told to go, he goes, he loses pretty much everything, joins up with merc army, eventually makes his way to dany and gets laughed at, shot down, and told to go home. Then he decides hes going to try and prove he's worthy by literally getting his face melted off. Quentyn was a joke, the male equivalent of sansa stark in book 1.

He was kinda like aGoT Sansa in that he was too dreamy for his own good, but not to Sansa's extent, who lived entirely in a fairy tale with a lot of snottiness that made her even worse.
Dany laughing at Quentyn didn't make me dislike Quentyn. It made me want to enter the story and slap Dany and hit her head to a wall. Quentyn believed he was destined for greatness. He believed he was destined to become a legend. He was brave enough to try to reach out for it. Stupid, but brave. He lost in the end, which made me like his story even more.

[Silverx2]

Brandon Martell, on 05 October 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

He was kinda like aGoT Sansa in that he was too dreamy for his own good, but not to Sansa's extent, who lived entirely in a fairy tale with a lot of snottiness that made her even worse.
Dany laughing at Quentyn didn't make me dislike Quentyn. It made me want to enter the story and slap Dany and hit her head to a wall. Quentyn believed he was destined for greatness. He believed he was destined to become a legend. He was brave enough to try to reach out for it. Stupid, but brave. He lost in the end, which made me like his story even more.

I'd wager your favorite greek myth is the one about icarus?

[PatrickStormborn]

Brandon Martell, on 05 October 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

He frees the dragons and shows that Doran Martell was doing something. All Doran's actions would be meaningless without "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood," and that would be meaningless without sending Quentyn. It doesn't have to be long. It's all 5 scenes of 1) on his way to Mereen 2)Going with the Windblown (or they could scrap that) 3)Meeting Dany 4)Tattered Prince 5)Unleashing the dragons.
And I will be very mad if they remove Quentyn's story. He's one of my favorite characters.

Did you... not read my post?

I said "no separate story from Quentyn". I did not say "remove Quentyn". Quentyn, however, is only relevant ONCE HE ARRIVES IN MEEREEN. We don't need to see him travelling to Meereen.

Although, to be fair, they could scrap the Dornish plot and I wouldn't particularly weep for it. All it does is establish that 1) The Martells support the Targaryens, 2) The Martells won't support Dany, and 3) The dragons are unleashed. Those points could all be established without a Dornish side plot (and they would have been had GRRM wrote AFfC like he wrote the first three books...)

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What else is there? Fighting Dareon and briefly meeting Cat? I guess they could scrap it, but I'd rather if they scrap sleeping with Gilly. I'd rather not scrap anything. His story isn't that long.

"His story isn't that long". Did I say it was? I just think everything in Braavos unrelated to the dragons and Maester Aemon is irrelevant and a complete waste of time, so I think they should scrap it. Sleeping with Gilly is pretty important.

The truth is that they need to condense AFfC and ADwD as much as possible. Any cutting they do without compromising the main plot (re-starting the war in Westeros) will be a good thing.

The Monkey, on 05 October 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

I don't know about this. Seeing has how little the characters interact as it is, why miss out on the Sam/Arya meeting in Braavos? Sure, it's brief and plot-wise pointless, but when important characters' path cross, it's best to show it.

Sorry, that part is too frustrating to keep imo. Sam and Arya cross paths and ... nothing happens. A waste of time.

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The whole point of Bolton marrying "Arya" wasn't to give House Bolton the right the rule the North, that had already been done by royal decree, as Roose had been named Warden of the North, it was to ease the transition of power for the other Houses by having the Boltons and Starks intermarry. It was done purely for appearance's sake, and that wouldn't really work if Ramsay married Robb's wife.

Wrong. Ramsay married Arya so that he could claim Winterfell.

[Ariane Martell]

• For more that I hate Catelyn, dead or alive, I think UnCat is important ,specially for Brienne and Jamie's arc. I think the whole thing of making Brienne kill Jamie is very interesting. But no more uncharacterx, specially not any Clegane brother.

• I agree that Sandor should stay dead, for me he already played his part in the story, and the way Arya left he probably would die in hours or minutes, unless someone revive him, what would make him a uncharacter which would be horrible. And even if someone saw him, Westerosi medicine is rustic it wouldn't be able to kept him alive, maybe for extra hours or even a couple days but not more.

• I'd make Elia and the kids die before Rhaegar. I'd love to somehow, maybe by Bran, see how Rhaegar would react. i think that I could analyze better his behavior and consideration towards Elia. Plus he deserved the guilt( if would felt any)
  
• I think Robb should've had a chapter or two. GRRM said that by Catelyn POV it his actions had more impact, I get it. But when he arrived to Riverrun, I think it would be nice to know what was in his mind, what really happened with Jeyne, how he felt about Theon, and his struggle with the Freys. Plus he was freaking good character he deserve it. I want the series to repair that.
  
• I would change Dany's entire DWD chapters except for the last one. I want the series to make her smater, they already casted Daario, so that can't change, but I'd like they never did. The guy is a waste of time.

Edited by Ariane Martell, 05 October 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Brandon Martell]

PatrickStormborn, on 05 October 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

The truth is that they need to condense AFfC and ADwD as much as possible. Any cutting they do without compromising the main plot (re-starting the war in Westeros) will be a good thing.

I don't see the need to condense Sam's story. It barely has much anyway. They can cut some of Quentyn's story, Dorne's, most of Brieanne and much of Cersei's. And since I'm expecting they'll split up FFC+DwD over two seasons, I don't think it's gonna be a big problem.
And it's just like you said, "his discovery that Jon switched the babies, telling Aemon of the dragons, Aemon's death, sleeping ith Gilly, and arriving in Oldtown." Just add in one more scene when he fights Dareon and meets Cat.

PatrickStormborn, on 05 October 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Sorry, that part is too frustrating to keep imo. Sam and Arya cross paths and ... nothing happens. A waste of time.

The Tywin+Arya scenes were pretty nice. Sure, they overdid it a bit but they were pretty nice. I think the Sam+Cat scene will be a pretty awesome scene. In the end, the show is about enjoyment and I'd love to see "For the night is dark and full of turnips", even though it adds absolutely nothing to the story.

And Patrick, relax a bit. You don't need to look at it like we're attacking what you're saying. We're just talking here.

Silverx2, on 05 October 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I'd wager your favorite greek myth is the one about icarus?

I don't know much about greek myth, but reading the story on wikipedia reminds me of Abbas Ibn Firnas, the Andalusi polymath who tried to fly by making wings out of feathers.

[PatrickStormborn]

Brandon Martell, on 05 October 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

I don't see the need to condense Sam's story. It barely has much anyway. They can cut some of Quentyn's story, Dorne's, most of Brieanne and much of Cersei's. And since I'm expecting they'll split up FFC+DwD over two seasons, I don't think it's gonna be a big problem.
And it's just like you said, "his discovery that Jon switched the babies, telling Aemon of the dragons, Aemon's death, sleeping ith Gilly, and arriving in Oldtown." Just add in one more scene when he fights Dareon and meets Cat.

But it's not just "one more scene". They would need to introduce Dareon, show that he is unwilling to leave, show that they are stranded in Braavos with no money, have him meet Arya, and then have the fight scene. It may not sound like a lot, but that's at least ten minutes worth of material... which means a lot if they're going to be compressing AFfC and ADwD into one season like I'm hoping for (not enough happens to warrant splitting it -- hence why GRRM refused to just cut the book in half and ended up splitting it by location).

As Cersei has the best chapters in AFfC, I can't see why they should be cut. The King's Landing material needs MORE focus, not less.

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The Tywin+Arya scenes were pretty nice. Sure, they overdid it a bit but they were pretty nice. I think the Sam+Cat scene will be a pretty awesome scene. In the end, the show is about enjoyment and I'd love to see "For the night is dark and full of turnips", even though it adds absolutely nothing to the story.

I do think that the Sam and Arya scene was great in the books. And, if the show had an unlimited budget, endless time, and no worry of being axed, then I would love to see every little detail portrayed on TV. But they don't. Spreading AFfC and ADwD over two seasons would kill the series, so I'm just trying to suggest ways in which they could condense the material without sacrificing the quality of the show.