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The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]


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#1 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:16 PM

Previous Threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3
Thread 4
Thread 5
Thread 6
Thread 7

Thread 8

Additional threads:


The Name of the Wind Thread (March 30th 2007)
"The Name of the Wind" (January 12th, 2011)
The Doors of Stone (May 3rd, 2011)
Question on Name of the Wind (September 2nd, 2011)
Does Name of the Wind get better? (January 4th, 2012)

Should I read The Name of the Wind? (Kingkiller Chronicles) (September 25, 3013)

Edited by thistlepong, 27 September 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#2 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

Suvudu Cage Matches:

Kvothe vs Aslan

Spoiler


Kvothe vs Jaime Lannister

Spoiler


Unpublished Excerpt from The Wise Man's Fear

Occurs in and around Kvothe's encounter with Puppet.
Spoiler


Westeros [Q&A]Patrick Rothfuss Chat Thread


2012-05-17 Admissions Interview

Part I at Pat's Blog
Part II at Tor.com's Rothfuss Reread

Kingkiller art by Nathan Taylor

The Name of the Wind movie poster

Amyr

*fan colored Amyr


The Name of the Wind recap



TV Tropes*






The Kingkiller Chronicle


The Name of the Wind


The Wise Man's Fear



Interviews

LA TIMES 3-28-2012
Spoiler


Patrick Rothfuss interviews Terry Brooks interviews...
Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Spoiler

Edited by thistlepong, 02 October 2012 - 01:25 PM.


#3 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

User Reviews:

Neth Space


Pat's Fantasy Hotlist


The Wertzone



Posts:



Will there be a second trilogy? (source) Contrast this with almost every public statement from the author over the last few years. Grains of salt and whatnot.


Theories of Note: All hail Jumbles for organizing and formatting this monster list

UPDATED BELOW

Edited by thistlepong, 28 October 2012 - 09:23 PM.


#4 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

FAQ

Edited by thistlepong, 02 October 2012 - 11:40 PM.


#5 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

Teaching the Controversy: a post under construction since 09-18-2013

So, will there be another trilogy?

Recently, blogger and freelance writer Jeff Peters posted the raw transcript for an interview he conducted with Patrick Rothfuss before the release of The Name of the Wind. Peters conducted the interview for a front page article in U-Wisconsin-Stevens Point's The Pointer, celebrating the success of one of their own. The following is from part 2.

So now that you’re mostly done with writing the trilogy are you working on anything new?
Yup. I’m working on revising the second book so it will be ready for publication. I’ve got a really cool idea for like an urban fairy tale set in Madison. Big city, um, sort of like what if fairies were real, and they didn’t go away, and they’re sort of working around the edges of society. And where better for old forgotten fairies to like hang out than a city like Madison. Right in the middle of a huge forest. All of Wisconsin is a forest. Like 45% of our state is still covered in forest.
Somebody suggested – they met me first as a fantasy novelist and then they read the College Survival Guide – and they said, “You are funny. You have to write an urban fantasy set in college with the same tone — the same sarcastic, funny, deranged character. And I think that’s a good idea. But I am also thinking of the next trilogy as well. All these characters have more things to do after this first trilogy is done.

So you’re going to try to stay in the same world?
I like the world. I spent a long time building it. It always pissed me off when an author created a place I loved and a bunch of characters that I loved, and then they just walk away from it. Your like, “Hey, these are my friends, how dare you just leave them withering on the vine.” So yeah, I’ll definitely be coming back to the world.

Will you do the new trilogy before doing the Madison story?
That’s hard. Part of it depends on what people want more. Part of it depends on which one ends up being more done. If I get really inspired to write one and it’s done, maybe it will come out first.


At the time it would have been obvious to any reader or interviewer that he was talking about the next Kvothe trilogy. Obviously most interviews after 2008 either explicitly deny or deflect from the notion of a second trilogy. But finally we have some corroboration for the interview on Pat's Fantasy Hotlist and the related Amazon review.

Reading along, I found the structure of the story a little odd. The better part of the novel is comprised of Kvothe's back story, with only a few scenes occurring in "real time." Having never encountered something like it, I discussed it with Betsy Wollheim. She did shine some light on the matter, and it turns out that Rothfuss' first trilogy will focus on the main character's past, with occasional tantalizing hints of things to come. A second trilogy will then recount Kvothe's "present" tale.


The Hotlist review went up two months before publication. The Amazon review the week after on 4-3-07 and the Pointer article on 4-5.

Last year at Worldcon, he gave an interview that reignited the question for a lot of folks:

So, can we hope for any more stories about Kvothe besides the one he’s telling us in The Kingkiller Chronicle? Is there a chance he might have more adventures after he’s done telling the story?
It’s a good question. No comment. To comment on that is to pollute every reader’s first experience of the story. Like, if I say “he dies at the end,” that colors your entire reading. Or if he doesn’t die at the end, that also colors your entire reading. If I say anything about where the story is going, it’ll ruin it, because that’s not part of the story. If I wanted you to know those things, I’d tell you in the story. So I’m really careful about what I tell people, by which I mean I never tell anyone anything about what is coming in the stories.
I don’t know if you know the Robert Frost poem “Good Fences Make Good Neighbors.” He has this line, “I wish you knew more without my having to tell you.” I have written this for you to read it, and if I wanted to say “p.s. the moral of the story is,” I would’ve written that into the book. But it’s a thing that stands on its own. And yes, we want to know about the author. But those things are part of the story. If you find out Shakespeare was a woman…so what? Hamlet is Hamlet.


If you're familiar with his interviews, both "good question" and "no comment" are typical deflections away from spoiler content, which he elaborated here in a way he hadn't before.

Edited by thistlepong, 18 September 2013 - 12:25 PM.


#6 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

Final posts from thread 8:

Thistle pong- I don't have either book so I cannot quote but a guest staying at Kvorthe's inn does recognize him and says I saw where you killed him, where the stones were shattered. So we know that he did kill someone in Imre. We really don't know who Kvorthe is hiding from,but he is hiding enough to change his name. Scarpi & Chronicler were looking for him so people don't think he's dead.
As for Bast - we get a glimpse of what he is doing at the end of WMF- when Chronicler goes into Bast room we are told what's in his room. I think he is collecting the 7 item to open the Lockles door of stone. On his shelf is a ribbon with a lock of hair. Not a Loclos Heir but a Loc(Los) of Hair. There is a ring of bone, a feather , a candle with leaves stuck in it. The Candle with the leaves makes me think of another line in the poem about the black smoke(I can't remember how the poem goes) but that is what I think Bast is up to.

The Cthaeh's story is straight outta the Bible, a serpent in a tree! El diablo himself! So Bast is right he is the worst. Now this Cthaeth tells Kvorthe that Cinder did him a bad turn one time. Shehyn tells Kvorthe the story he cannot repeat for 1000 days about the cities being destroyed. Shehyn's story says the cities held and the attackers used dirty tactics to win. Those tactics were like rotting fruit from the inside out. Maybe the way they did break the deadlock by sending in the worm to rot the apple(the worm or snake/Cthaeh ) from the inside. Bast said his knowledge of his insight was like a plague ship into a harbor, they sent in the Cthaeh himself. So his prophesies made the cities fall. So the Cthaeh wins the war and to the victors goes the spoils,but not for the Cthaeh (or worm)gets his bad turn,Cinder binds him to his tree prison. Being that Cinder has a cruel personality he must of rubbed the Cthaeh nose in that fact. The Chandrian wanted him as far from people as possible after that. That is why he in a tree in the fae guarded.Bad timing for Kvorthe to visit him when he wasn't guarded. So what my overly long post says is that the Cthaeh story and Adam &Eve's stories are similar (I realize that the snake/worm comparison is a stretch but it kinda fits)

Like 'jumbles' said this story is full of the idea, you can't believe everything in stories. After all old cob, thought that Kvothe summoned a demon when he burned that lightweight metal thing.

Also he might not be hiding from a specific someone in his past, but rather just trying to escape his past, besides he is a wanted man, and his head was worth a lot of money according to himself, when he tries to convince the smiths 'prenntice to not leave and join the military.



#7 jumbles

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

Hey thistlepong! Thanks for quickly getting a new thread up so it could be linked from the previous one!

I've done a reorganization of the list. It is now split into three sections.

Understanding the Four Corners is for posts dealing with:

  • the world-building of the books
  • the online culture of the Kingkiller Chronicle (i.e. Elodin is Manet)
  • revelations that may add to our understanding but are unlikely to be of major importance to Kvothe's story

Observations with Possible Implied/Inferred Theory speaks for itself.

Theories of Note is for posts predicting what will happen or what we will learn in the future. This was the original purpose of the list I created.

While separating the topics into these sections I found that it's not an easy task. Many things could be placed in multiple sections.

I am still working on adding more to the lists. As always, I'm open to suggestions for additions, subtractions, or other changes to the list. If you think there should be more sections, or that they should be organized differently, or that things are in the wrong place, say something!

Understanding the Four Corners *UPDATED 2013 MAY 16*

Spoiler


Observations That Aren't Quite Theories (Though a Theory May Be Implied/Inferred) *UPDATED 2013 SEP 09*
Spoiler


Theories of Note *UPDATED 2014 FEB 26*
Spoiler


Edited by jumbles, 26 February 2014 - 08:48 PM.


#8 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

For clarity's sake, so I don't go mad trying to compare that to what I already have up there, does that post have any additions that occur after you added the alchemy section?

#9 jumbles

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:15 PM

Yes, near the bottom i linked a timeline that you put together. Don't know if there's anything else...

#10 Tears of Lys

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:27 PM

Wow! /bowdown.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':bowdown:' />

#11 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:45 PM

Yes, near the bottom i linked a timeline that you put together. Don't know if there's anything else...


Thanks /drool.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':drool:' />

That needs an update, too.

#12 two_by_two

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

The Cthaeh's story is straight outta the Bible, a serpent in a tree! El diablo himself! So Bast is right he is the worst. Now this Cthaeth tells Kvorthe that Cinder did him a bad turn one time. Shehyn tells Kvorthe the story he cannot repeat for 1000 days about the cities being destroyed. Shehyn's story says the cities held and the attackers used dirty tactics to win. Those tactics were like rotting fruit from the inside out. Maybe the way they did break the deadlock by sending in the worm to rot the apple(the worm or snake/Cthaeh ) from the inside. Bast said his knowledge of his insight was like a plague ship into a harbor, they sent in the Cthaeh himself. So his prophesies made the cities fall. So the Cthaeh wins the war and to the victors goes the spoils,but not for the Cthaeh (or worm)gets his bad turn,Cinder binds him to his tree prison. Being that Cinder has a cruel personality he must of rubbed the Cthaeh nose in that fact. The Chandrian wanted him as far from people as possible after that. That is why he in a tree in the fae guarded.Bad timing for Kvorthe to visit him when he wasn't guarded. So what my overly long post says is that the Cthaeh story and Adam &Eve's stories are similar (I realize that the snake/worm comparison is a stretch but it kinda fits)


Well, I guess I'll get the ball rolling with analysis and stuff. By the way, thistle and jumbles, you guys are awesome. I'm consistently impressed with basically everything you do. So... yeah, well done.

First of all, red roggo, the whole visual parallel may not even exist; we don't actually ever see the Cthaeh, merely speculate on its serpentine aspect from contextual clues. But I see your point about the whole knowledge-as-forbidden-fruit. However, as we never tire of pointing out, this tale delights in turning tired tropes on their head, particularly how we assume all information in info-dumps is always true. In this context (and really every time we talk about the long-ago past), take the saying "history is written by the victors" as a very important grain of salt. So the Cthaeh lost some struggle way back in the long-forgotten past (or maybe not so forgotten, if it turns out that the Cthaeh was Selitos), was bound to the tree, and was subsequently painted as not just a villain, but the villain, the wellspring of all chaos and suffering in the world, regardless of whether that is even remotely the truth (the only information on the subject we are provided with comes third-hand from Bast, who, although intelligent and well-meaning, is very young by the standards of his kind and very much not wise by anyone's standards). And even if Pat went on record saying the Cthaeh was directly inspired by the imagery of the Garden of Eden (extremely unlikely from someone as close-lipped as he), one could argue that still tells us nothing, since history is written by the victors, in that case, the side of heaven. Everyone is a hero of their own story, even the devil. So try to avoid casting anyone as outright evil.

That being said, and after re-reading your post a few times to get to the heart of the matter, I think your point on the rotting fruit from the inside compared to the plague ship in the harbors is really interesting. During such an awful war, both sides would tend to enter into an arms race, and that would lead to more and more horrible weapons being developed (especially using the power of naming/shaping), culminating in the creation of a weapon so powerful (because knowledge is power) that even its makers could hardly control it. After harnessing it just long enough to win their war for them, they locked it away, unable to destroy it, and set a guard around it. I like the sound of this.

#13 thistlepong

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:53 PM

Two things:

First:
Wait, The Chandrian won?

Second:
I wanna use one of the informational posts for a FAQ to answer common, simple questions without going into exegesis mode. I'm just not sure how to phrase the straw questions yet. For example, among the most consistent mistakes is speculating that Kvothe frees the moon from its obligation to travel to Faen by opening the Loeclos Box and freeing it's name which is assumed, circularly, to be the contents of the box because...

To my eyes, the core question is IS THE MOON MOVING IN THE FRAME? Answer: Yes. add quotes from the text. QED.

But that lacks what the French call a certain I-don't-know-what. So, will that be helpful? anyone have any suggestions for FAQ with simple answers?

#14 Gaston de Foix

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:22 AM

Two things:

First:
Wait, The Chandrian won?

Second:
I wanna use one of the informational posts for a FAQ to answer common, simple questions without going into exegesis mode. I'm just not sure how to phrase the straw questions yet. For example, among the most consistent mistakes is speculating that Kvothe frees the moon from its obligation to travel to Faen by opening the Loeclos Box and freeing it's name which is assumed, circularly, to be the contents of the box because...

To my eyes, the core question is IS THE MOON MOVING IN THE FRAME? Answer: Yes. add quotes from the text. QED.

But that lacks what the French call a certain I-don't-know-what. So, will that be helpful? anyone have any suggestions for FAQ with simple answers?



It's been a while since I've dared to discuss NOTW and WMF on this thread but i feel compelled to jump in at this point.

First off, Thistle and Jumbles thank you for your monster organising posts.


I've been posting and reading here since WMF came out and even I'm lost in terms of keeping every track of every facet of the books. In fact I had a few theories on Kvothe's rescue of the missing princess that I never dared to elaborate because I didn't have the time to read everything here and on Tor.

There is only thing I spotted missing from Jumbles list, the speculations on the political structure of Vintas, and particularly the notion of four farrels etc. That might be worthy of addition.

The bigger point I wanted to make was in response to the Loeclos Box and the moon which Thistle raised.

I would propose we look at issues like 'Doors' and 'Boxes" not in a puzzle solving mode, but in layers. One of the most important things Rothfuss has said in my view about the Kingkiller Chronicles is that it an antidote to those fantasy novels where mythos, plot and character all come together in one powerful conclusion (I'm summarising very loosely, if some has a link to the quote that would be helpful). This is one man's story, and the story of the rest of the world is told only insofar as it is necessary to tell Kvothe's story.

In my view the Kingkiller Chronicles is best read in terms of layers, like an onion or a flower. It's clear that there should be some reason we have two mysterious doors in the Chroniclers, and two mysterious boxes. One view is that we must connect the dots and understand the precise relationship between the two Doors. The other is that one box and one door will remain essentially off stage and unknown, what will occupy centre stage is a smaller box and a less important door. There are similarities between the two boxes and two doors, to be sure, but it's kind of like reading Lord of the Rings and finding out that Sauron himself was merely a servant and emissary of Morgoth Bauglir and the War of the Ring was fought before, on a bigger stage.

It's important to understand this, because as much as Rothfuss is promising to finish the story in three books, he won't give us what I expect GRRM and Jordan will give us when their work is finished; to every character an end, and to every end a character. Stuff remains unresolved in biographies even self-narrated, Chronicler written biographies.

#15 jumbles

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:19 AM

... in terms of layers, like an onion ...


Or an ogre! /lol.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':lol:' />


Oh! Also I'll look into the Vintish political structure posts. Thanks for suggesting that. Also, I think when I update the list I'll try to mark the additions as new.

Edited by jumbles, 03 October 2012 - 05:33 AM.


#16 SingleMort

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:14 AM

Sorry if I'm repeating what other people have said or if this has been done to death

But does anyone else think that Bast might be Kvothe's son. Possibly by Felurian or another fae?

#17 Loslathdos

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

But does anyone else think that Bast might be Kvothe's son. Possibly by Felurian or another fae?

Quote from book according to Kvothe 'Bastas, son of Remmen, Prince of twilight and the Telwyth Mael... Who, over the course of a hundred and fifty years of life'

So if what Kvothe says is accurate, he's not Basts father

#18 thistlepong

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:00 PM

It's been a while since I've dared to discuss NOTW and WMF on this thread but i feel compelled to jump in at this point.

First off, Thistle and Jumbles thank you for your monster organising posts.


I've been posting and reading here since WMF came out and even I'm lost in terms of keeping every track of every facet of the books. In fact I had a few theories on Kvothe's rescue of the missing princess that I never dared to elaborate because I didn't have the time to read everything here and on Tor.

There is only thing I spotted missing from Jumbles list, the speculations on the political structure of Vintas, and particularly the notion of four farrels etc. That might be worthy of addition.

The bigger point I wanted to make was in response to the Loeclos Box and the moon which Thistle raised.

I would propose we look at issues like 'Doors' and 'Boxes" not in a puzzle solving mode, but in layers. One of the most important things Rothfuss has said in my view about the Kingkiller Chronicles is that it an antidote to those fantasy novels where mythos, plot and character all come together in one powerful conclusion (I'm summarising very loosely, if some has a link to the quote that would be helpful). This is one man's story, and the story of the rest of the world is told only insofar as it is necessary to tell Kvothe's story.

In my view the Kingkiller Chronicles is best read in terms of layers, like an onion or a flower. It's clear that there should be some reason we have two mysterious doors in the Chroniclers, and two mysterious boxes. One view is that we must connect the dots and understand the precise relationship between the two Doors. The other is that one box and one door will remain essentially off stage and unknown, what will occupy centre stage is a smaller box and a less important door. There are similarities between the two boxes and two doors, to be sure, but it's kind of like reading Lord of the Rings and finding out that Sauron himself was merely a servant and emissary of Morgoth Bauglir and the War of the Ring was fought before, on a bigger stage.

It's important to understand this, because as much as Rothfuss is promising to finish the story in three books, he won't give us what I expect GRRM and Jordan will give us when their work is finished; to every character an end, and to every end a character. Stuff remains unresolved in biographies even self-narrated, Chronicler written biographies.



My expectations for what will be set in stone have always been kind of lower than those of other folks. At the same time I have a lot of fun trying to come to grips with why I like the story and digging in the dirt of it for clues. As a community we've actually determined some remarkable things.

I've said before that I doubt we'll get hard answers to most of our questions. However, the books are meant to be reread. Some of the answers are there. The mythos, while maybe bearing indirectly on the plot at hand, is something Pat wants us to engage with:

"Part of the enjoyment is the slow uncovering of the mysteries of the world, something we get very little of in this world and our real lives. Boy, I really wish I knew how, like, the ancient Sumerian story of Inanna, Queen of Heaven and Earth really tied into Gilgamesh and the Old Testament, but we never really get any definitive answers on that. We just get some fairly good guesses.

Whereas in my world that's one of the things that Kvothe is interested in and he's trying to dig up over the space of time. So part if the reason that you don't have all of the answers that you want is because that is some of the stuff that is still coming in the third book, and later books."


Regarding the layers, I think you're right. The frame chest, the Loeclos Box, and Jax's box are absolutely not equivalent; but they resonate on different levels of the story. That's just one example. The alchemical "as above, so below" occurs over and over again. As it should.

I still want to see your theory on the princess(es.) I don't care if it's old and dusty, tattered and incomplete.

#19 SingleMort

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:33 PM

Quote from book according to Kvothe 'Bastas, son of Remmen, Prince of twilight and the Telwyth Mael... Who, over the course of a hundred and fifty years of life'


So if what Kvothe says is accurate, he's not Basts father


I know what he says but that doesn't mean it's true and if it is Remmen could be another name for Kvothe. He's got a lot of them remember.

My reasons for thinking Bast might be his son stem from their relationship. It seems way more than just friendship or the bond of teacher and pupil, Bast hardly studies anyway. Also what is that name he keeps calling Kvothe, 'Reshi' . It could just mean master or sir but Bast often seems to use it as an informal term of address a lot like father perhaps?

Also why is it that Kvothe trusts Bast? He doesn't seem to be the most reliable of people. Even with his parents dead Kvothe still had a number of friends that he must have known far longer and proved more reliable than Bast so why is that he choose to go into hiding with Bast and in essence trust Bast with his life over everyone else. Granted some may be dead but it seems very unlikely that they all are.

Rothfuss has already set up that time moves faster in the fae world than Kvothe's world so it wouldn't be hard for him to have an adult son and still be in his 20s.

I'm not saying that he MUST be Kvothe's son but there's definitely more than just friendship between them. And surely after his experience with Felurian Kvothe would be far more wary of the fae and wouldn't just take someone like Bast into his confidence just because he found him an amusing companion. Kvothe has known Bast for less time than nearly all his other friends and yet the two of them have this incredibly strong bond together. Even if Bast was an Amyr I don't think it would explain his devotion to Kvothe.

#20 two_by_two

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:35 PM

Two things:

First:
Wait, The Chandrian won?


Whoops. I meant that's what it seemed red roggo was suggesting.

The bigger point I wanted to make was in response to the Loeclos Box and the moon which Thistle raised.

I would propose we look at issues like 'Doors' and 'Boxes" not in a puzzle solving mode, but in layers. One of the most important things Rothfuss has said in my view about the Kingkiller Chronicles is that it an antidote to those fantasy novels where mythos, plot and character all come together in one powerful conclusion (I'm summarising very loosely, if some has a link to the quote that would be helpful). This is one man's story, and the story of the rest of the world is told only insofar as it is necessary to tell Kvothe's story.

In my view the Kingkiller Chronicles is best read in terms of layers, like an onion or a flower. It's clear that there should be some reason we have two mysterious doors in the Chroniclers, and two mysterious boxes. One view is that we must connect the dots and understand the precise relationship between the two Doors. The other is that one box and one door will remain essentially off stage and unknown, what will occupy centre stage is a smaller box and a less important door. There are similarities between the two boxes and two doors, to be sure, but it's kind of like reading Lord of the Rings and finding out that Sauron himself was merely a servant and emissary of Morgoth Bauglir and the War of the Ring was fought before, on a bigger stage.

It's important to understand this, because as much as Rothfuss is promising to finish the story in three books, he won't give us what I expect GRRM and Jordan will give us when their work is finished; to every character an end, and to every end a character. Stuff remains unresolved in biographies even self-narrated, Chronicler written biographies.


Wow I love the connection to Sauron & Morgoth.

And in response to your post, looking at what we've suggested and postulated and theorized, I'm a little concerned that we're centering too much of this story around Kvothe, that we're making it too epic, I guess is the best word.