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The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]


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#201 two_by_two

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 08:54 PM

I think you are underestimating ow much money he has. Remember the chest or Roah?
It is mentioned that a piece of roah wood the size of a thumb is worth gold. Consider the cost of the chest, then the inn itself. And even then he has enough money that he can pay 2 levy taxes, and continue to give it around, even with a third levy tax about to happen.

He might make some money by the Bloodless and the scam, but that much is not even imaginable. It will have to be some future income.


Well, as for the Roah chest, I assumed that, in order for him to have gotten ahold of that much, he wouldn't have been able to buy it, he would have had to have gotten it directly from the source and had it fashioned for him (well that verb clause was a semantic mess, but I think I get my point across). Like... Kvothe is obviously pretty well-off, but frankly there are some things that even disgusting amounts of money can't buy. I suspect a colossal chunk of enchanted (?) wood from unknown sources would probably fall into that category.

Plus his display plate for Folly is also made out of a different but equally mysterious type of wood. I suspect he popped into Fae and got his hands on some random cool stuff there, rather than paying market price.

It's sort of the video-game item thing, where the stuff you can buy at shops is never ever as good as the stuff you find just adventuring. Or at least that's what I suspect is going on here.

#202 Nisheeth

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:38 PM

Well, as for the Roah chest, I assumed that, in order for him to have gotten ahold of that much, he wouldn't have been able to buy it, he would have had to have gotten it directly from the source and had it fashioned for him (well that verb clause was a semantic mess, but I think I get my point across). Like... Kvothe is obviously pretty well-off, but frankly there are some things that even disgusting amounts of money can't buy. I suspect a colossal chunk of enchanted (?) wood from unknown sources would probably fall into that category.

Plus his display plate for Folly is also made out of a different but equally mysterious type of wood. I suspect he popped into Fae and got his hands on some random cool stuff there, rather than paying market price.

It's sort of the video-game item thing, where the stuff you can buy at shops is never ever as good as the stuff you find just adventuring. Or at least that's what I suspect is going on here.

That might be possible. Even likely. But this lead me to another question. How did he make the chest? Bast used a hatchet, but was unable to even scratch the wood. How hard would it have been then to shape it into a chest?

EDIT: Reading my last sentence, I think I have an answer for myself. /smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
He use Names to Shape it.

Edited by Nisheeth, 04 April 2013 - 11:46 PM.


#203 thistlepong

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:15 AM

Well, as for the Roah chest, I assumed that, in order for him to have gotten ahold of that much, he wouldn't have been able to buy it, he would have had to have gotten it directly from the source and had it fashioned for him (well that verb clause was a semantic mess, but I think I get my point across). Like... Kvothe is obviously pretty well-off, but frankly there are some things that even disgusting amounts of money can't buy. I suspect a colossal chunk of enchanted (?) wood from unknown sources would probably fall into that category.

Plus his display plate for Folly is also made out of a different but equally mysterious type of wood. I suspect he popped into Fae and got his hands on some random cool stuff there, rather than paying market price.


The Inn itself, the black stone unseen in the rest of the story, his sly generosity, the taxes, the rather absurd selection of beverages, and whatever nonetheless point to impressive wealth. He might not have bought the wood for the chest, but that only scuffs the point. It doesn't dull it.

The mounting board is also roah. In fact, it's how we know why the chest is so extravagant. It's not Faen wood. Graham orders it.


That might be possible. Even likely. But this lead me to another question. How did he make the chest? Bast used a hatchet, but was unable to even scratch the wood. How hard would it have been then to shape it into a chest?


When Bast uses the hatchet, there's a dull ringing like a a heavy bell far away. The imagery is used a couple other times. The force of the blow is being applied to something else. Might be naming, but it could prolly be accomplished via sygaldry as well.

#204 Nisheeth

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:57 AM

When Bast uses the hatchet, there's a dull ringing like a a heavy bell far away. The imagery is used a couple other times. The force of the blow is being applied to something else. Might be naming, but it could prolly be accomplished via sygaldry as well.

Was the imagery used when Kvothe was demonstrating the Bloodless?
Unless he found something durable like whatever was used to make Caesura, I don't think any sygaldry could protect the material to the same standard as everything else (three locks, no apparent lid, wood insoluble in most acids and not burning etc). That would prevent Kvothe using it, as it would be the weak link in the chain. All this is on the assumption that Kvothe didn't want someone else opening the chest when he made it.

#205 thistlepong

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:08 AM

One of em's in the Encanis story Trapis tells. I haven't bothered to catalog them and flesh out a theory or anything. But there you have the boundary between the semi-mythical and the real eliding, so maybe the ringing in the story is describing a generally poorly understood actual phenomenon. Or Pat repeats himself carelessly?

#206 Nisheeth

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:12 AM

One of em's in the Encanis story Trapis tells. I haven't bothered to catalog them and flesh out a theory or anything. But there you have the boundary between the semi-mythical and the real eliding, so maybe the ringing in the story is describing a generally poorly understood actual phenomenon. Or Pat repeats himself carelessly?

I will read that section to see what it is being used for. My guess was made on the fact that there was some sound described when Kvothe was doing the demonstration, and that there was the bear trap that could make a similar sound.

#207 thistlepong

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:09 PM

Does Name of the Wind get better? recently reached its post limit and closed. It's archived on page one along with lots of other stuff. When I get a chance I should copy over a couple posts.

It ended on a question about the Trebon section of NotW. A lot of folks remember reading that it was added at Betsy Wollheim's request, but I haven't located a link to confirm it.

#208 lanceschaubert

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:32 PM

Hey gang,

I apologized to thistle in an email for my absence, but I wanted you to know I haven't been idle. I've merely been busy with other projects...

The one I'm most proud of is called "Cold Brewed." It's a noir story about coffee told entirely through bits of dialog and black-and-white photos. You can find the first post here:

Episode 01: "Hard Water"


So that's what I've been up to. Hopefully some day I can return and help you all in a bigger way before the third book comes out. Until then, I'll see all of you cool nerds around.


Peace,


- Lancelot


Edited by lanceschaubert, 10 April 2013 - 02:33 PM.


#209 allenczhang

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

Quick post concerning Denna's "braids". Not sure if this has already been posted before.
Just listing every instance where Denna's hair is braided.

She looked down nervously, her fingers tracing patterns on the tabletop. “Then, if someone saw the writing, even if they couldn’t read it, it would be true for them. They’d think a certain thing, or act a certain way depending on what the writing said.”
She looked up at us again, her expression a strange mix of curiosity, hope, and uncertainty.

Where Denna introduces her supposed "magic".

Her dark hair fell in a straight sheaf across her back, all except a single slender braid that hung close to her face.


“I expect I know his real name,” she shrugged, running a hand through her hair. When her fingers touched the braid she
seemed surprised to find it there and quickly began to unravel it, her deft fingers smoothing it away. “Even if I don’t, what
does it matter? Everyone has secrets, Kvothe. I don’t particularly care what his are so long as he continues to deal square with me. He’s been very generous.”


“Is that so?” she said, running her hand through her hair. Her fingers began to idly twine her hair into a braid, then she stopped and brushed it out. “In that case, what are we doing here?”


Her harp case leaned against the wall behind her, and she had an expectant look in her eye. Her dark hair was lustrous in the sunlight, unadorned except for three narrow braids tied with blue string. She was barefoot, and her feet were grass-stained. She smiled.


I sat where I was, sprawling comfortably on the long, cool grass. I tugged a few strands of it out of the ground and idly
began to twist them together into a braid.


I looked down at my hands and idly fingered the flat braid of green grass I’d woven. It was smooth and cool between my fingers. I couldn’t remember how I’d planned to join the ends together to form a ring.

(Not actually an instance where Denna braids his hair. Just caught this when I was searching through the wise man's fear PDF. Interesting how Kvothe ends up braiding a grass ring (which symbolizes love I believe). Maybe he's into braiding magic too /tongue.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />)

Denna sat in the center of a chilly silence. Her eyes were hard and flat. “That’s what it’s all about, isn’t it?” she said
coldly. Her fingers moved in her hair, every flick of her fingers stiff with irritation. She untied her braids, smoothed them out, then absentmindedly retied them in a different pattern.




I took a breath before reaching out to lightly touch a narrow, intricate braid, halfhidden in her hair. “Your braid,” I clarified. “It almost says lovely.”




Her fingers knitted the strands together and for a second I could read it, clear as day: “Don’t speak to me.”


Edited a bunch of times to reduce line count.
Also bolded the word "braid" in the passage.
Does anybody think Kvothe acts oddly in any of these passages? At all? Or does Denna's magic fail?

Edited by allenczhang, 22 April 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#210 allenczhang

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 05:45 PM

Another theory.
The lockless box can only be opened by listening. In the book...:
"He rested both hands on the curved lid and closed his eyes, as if listening for something."
Then he tries to open the box. Which makes no sense, because when he fails, he goes and get keys to open the copper/iron locks... Why would he even try to open the box if the locks were still there?

And the e'lir, re'lar, and el'the ranks still confuse me.
An e'lir can see names... yes? And re'lar can speak them. But if you can see a name, doesn't that mean you can speak it?
And the el'the (which probably means listener) doesn't seem to be connected to naming at all.
For example, the old man in the story said, "It’s tricky, proper listening. But once you have it, you’ll know the moon down to the bottoms of her feet.”
Isn't that exactly what Kvothe said when he named Felurian, that he "I understood her far beyond the bottoms of her feet." So was he listening or speaking or seeing?
Hmm....

Lastly, some random connections I found.

Rothfuss describes the third silence as a deep river-smooth stone. Kvothe describes the secrets he holds as river-smooth stones as well.

"How's the road to tinue?" is repeated way too much. On purpose?


"Eight inches away a bottle shattered. The smell of strawberries filled the air alongside the sound of splintering glass."
Denna liked strawberry wine.


Chroniclerpaused, suddenly awkward. “I thought you would be older.”
“I am,” Kote said.
Kvothe is older, because of the time he spent in the fae.


Her voice was like a portrait of her soul: wild as a fire, sharp as shattered glass, sweet and clean as clover.”
When the smith in WMF tries burning the wood Kvothe set Folly on, he described it smelling like old leather and burnt clover. Probably insignificant.



I pushed myself back down out of sight and stabbed the sentry’s body over and over in a delirious rage. Finally, I struck a buckle and the blade snapped.
Interesting. And kind of disturbing. Isn’t he in the heart of stone? Something like that shouldn’t have happened
And later...
A small knife to replace the one I’d broken and a small shaving razor with a horn handle.

Interesting how Rothfuss mentions horn. That means enmity? Maybe insignificant.
However, I think the fact that he snapped his ramston steel knife doing crazy shit is semi-important.

#211 Nisheeth

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:25 AM

Spoiler

I think the ranks are like this:
A seer is able to see some names, but doesn't know how to speak them to do something. Like, Fela spoke the Name of stone to shape it into a ring, but Elodin spoke it to break the wall. That would be something a speaker would be able to do, command a name to do something specific.
A listener would be able to listen to various names, no need to see them.

How is the road to Tinue? is simply a phrase to ask how things are in the world.

Edited by Nisheeth, 28 April 2013 - 02:26 AM.


#212 thistlepong

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:38 AM

I kind of thought it worked like this:

E'lir - Seer

We don't have much to recommend them seeing names. Kvothe has trouble finding them even as a Re'lar. I tend to think that, at least at the time of the narrative, it's more metaphorical. Or maybe more like Puppet talking about the patience and attention to see one's surroundings clearly.

Re'lar - Speaker

Demonstrated ability to speak, out loud, with effect, a name. Real magic.

El'the - (probably) Listener

The ability to reliably find a name and the control and judgment not to do so. This is just inferred, but I think it's born out in the text. El'the demonstrate patience, responsibility, and determination. They are trusted with what would be dangerous: advanced bindings, biological runes, that sort of thing.

(Arcanist) graduation day

Their gram is called a gilthe, which might be the old name of the rank. They are expected to reflect well on the University and Arcanists in general by following the rules they learned in school. Long odds are that gilthe means shaper.

.
*There isn't any guarantee that facility with names is a requirement for graduation. Students in the medica, for example, might not be required to demonstrate ability with names which might account for the more rigid time requirements. On the other hand, Sim gains Re'lar during the period following him hearing "wind" when Elodin says aerlevsedi.

"How's the road to tinue?" is repeated way too much. On purpose?

How is the road to Tinue? is simply a phrase to ask how things are in the world.


I actually agree with allenczhang. I mean, Nisheeth has a point refied by the idioms we all use that have origins buried in the past. But I think it's appearance in "The Boy Who Loved the Moon" provides a weird clue. This is an extreme minority opinion, but my money's on "How's the road..." being a code for the (temporal) Amyr. The secret handshake answer is, "It's long, and hard and weary." I also think that's the answer Kote was looking for from Chronicler at the beginning.

#213 Nisheeth

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:09 PM

I kind of thought it worked like this:

E'lir - Seer

We don't have much to recommend them seeing names. Kvothe has trouble finding them even as a Re'lar. I tend to think that, at least at the time of the narrative, it's more metaphorical. Or maybe more like Puppet talking about the patience and attention to see one's surroundings clearly.

Re'lar - Speaker

Demonstrated ability to speak, out loud, with effect, a name. Real magic.

El'the - (probably) Listener

The ability to reliably find a name and the control and judgment not to do so. This is just inferred, but I think it's born out in the text. El'the demonstrate patience, responsibility, and determination. They are trusted with what would be dangerous: advanced bindings, biological runes, that sort of thing.

(Arcanist) graduation day

Their gram is called a gilthe, which might be the old name of the rank. They are expected to reflect well on the University and Arcanists in general by following the rules they learned in school. Long odds are that gilthe means shaper.

.
*There isn't any guarantee that facility with names is a requirement for graduation. Students in the medica, for example, might not be required to demonstrate ability with names which might account for the more rigid time requirements. On the other hand, Sim gains Re'lar during the period following him hearing "wind" when Elodin says aerlevsedi.

About the titles being metaphorical during the narrative, I quote this section from NotW:

Elodin drew a deep breath. “Once upon a time, there was a University. It was built in the dead ruins of an older University. It wasn’t very big,
perhaps fifty people in all. But it was the best University for miles and miles, so people came and learned and left. There was a small group of people who gathered there. People whose knowledge went beyond mathematics and grammar and rhetoric.

“They started a smaller group inside the University. They called it the Arcanum and it was a very small, very secret thing. They had a ranking system among themselves, and your rise through those ranks was due to prowess and nothing else. One entered this group by proving they could see things for what they really were. They became E’lir, which means see-er. How do you think they became Re’lar?” He looked at me expectantly.

“By speaking.”

He laughed. “Right!” He stopped and turned to face me. “But speaking what?” His eyes were bright and sharp.

“Words?”

“Names,” he said excitedly. “Names are the shape of the world, and a man who can speak them is on the road to power. Back in the beginning, the Arcanum was a small collection of men who understood things. Men who knew powerful names. They taught a few students, slowly, carefully encouraging them toward power and wisdom. And magic. Real magic.” He looked around at the buildings and milling students. “In those days the Arcanum was a strong brandy. Now it is well-watered wine.”

So they had meanings when the Arcanum was young and secret, but now, they are just titles without

I actually agree with allenczhang. I mean, Nisheeth has a point refied by the idioms we all use that have origins buried in the past. But I think it's appearance in "The Boy Who Loved the Moon" provides a weird clue. This is an extreme minority opinion, but my money's on "How's the road..." being a code for the (temporal) Amyr. The secret handshake answer is, "It's long, and hard and weary." I also think that's the answer Kote was looking for from Chronicler at the beginning.

Actually, I had never heard of this theory before (or, if it was in one of the earlier threads, I had forgotten about it). Add me to that minority who think that way. I like this idea a lot!

Edited by Nisheeth, 28 April 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#214 Dot Seth

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

the cthaeh won by getting kvothe to open the four plate door under the archive. it will be a tragic misunderstanding of course. he will manage to save princess auriel from what comes out, the sleeping barrow king. but who is it again? is it iax beyond the doors of stone, and selitos / encanis trapped in the tree as cthaeh?

#215 thistlepong

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:55 AM

The road to Tinue thing has come up "before," but I can't point to where or how long ago. And there's only that muttered suggestion to support it. Long odds. High resistance.

Incidentally that last quote is flimsy-to-good support for the last rank being shaper.

#216 allenczhang

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

I just found this.
http://www.tor.com/f...rothfuss-reread
Amazing stuff. I've spent quite a while reading stuff, but I've barely gotten through the first 3 chapters...
The comments have more juicy insights than the re-read itself.

#217 thistlepong

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:40 AM

I just found this.
http://www.tor.com/f...rothfuss-reread
Amazing stuff. I've spent quite a while reading stuff, but I've barely gotten through the first 3 chapters...
The comments have more juicy insights than the re-read itself.


I think I've heard of that.

#218 allenczhang

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:12 PM

;P I've seen your comments on there

#219 thistlepong

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 10:52 AM

I keep meaning to consolidate stuff from other places, or threads here I'll throw this out in case anyone hasn't seen it yet.

Lance, who posted awhile ago, was one of the first folks to to suspect the alchemical symbolism at work in the series. After a few months of reading, I became pretty convinced that it was both intentional and a guiding principle in the narrative. With that in mind I started thinking about what that meant for the third book. I mentioned that, since we knew Kvothe was going to Renere in book three, I could predict with fair certainty that The Calanthis livery was red and yellow (or gold). Folks responded almost immediately noting that the calanthis birds were, in fact, red and yellow, which had slipped my mind.

Anyway, the series is called The Kingkiller Chronicle, right? Alchemically, a king should die in the third book. Prominent colors in the third book should be red, with maybe some yellow if you're showing off. So Roderic Calanthis should die. Here follows the copypasta:

What's terribly interesting to me is that this tends to work on a literal level without resorting to to the alchemical symbolism. And yet, the assumptions I made based on my understanding of that symbolism and the structural necessities that should arise from it align surprisingly well. I couldn’t be more certain, now.

A fair number of folks think Roderic Calanthis is the king, killed. I think that line of inquiry just ossified. Here are the relevant passages that link the flits and the royal family and literally predict their colors.

“Sipquicks?”
“Tiny, bright things, yellow and red,” I held up my fingers about two inches apart. “They’re thick in your gardens. They drink the nectar from your selas flowers.”
“Oh. We call them flits.”
“But it’s a little rough on the poor little calanthis.”
“Beg pardon?” I asked.
“Our Stapes is old-fashioned,” Alveron explained with a smile. “And more educated than he cares to admit. Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for them.”
“I could swear I’ve heard that word somewhere else.”
“It’s also the surname of the royal line of Vintas,” Alveron said chidingly.


Having them thus connected, it’s incredibly interesting to note the opening action of the Cthaeh.

But my eye was caught by a single large red one, crimson shot through with a faint tracery of metallic gold. Its wings were bigger than my spread hand, and as I watched it fluttered deeper into the foliage in search of a fresh flower to light upon.
Suddenly, its wings were no longer moving in concert. They tumbled apart and fluttered separately to the ground like falling autumn leaves.


I can’t really see it as a coincidence. Kvothe’s already killed calanthis, colored red and yellow. Now we have the Cthaeh opening with a precisely color-coded killing. “The red ones offend my aesthetic.”

As the conversation progresses the Cthaeh encourages Kvothe to range further afield, to travel to the edge of the map for information. Part of his decision to go to Ademre is based on this. And there, ultimately, he receives the sword. He becomes the clever, thoughtless armed sixteen year old Abenthy discussed with him.

I think the Cthaeh set Kvothe on a collision course with Roderic. I think one of its machinations is Roderic’s death. I think Saicere is in Kvothe’s hands for killing, specifically for breaking the Calanthis line.

But, y’know, don’t take my word for it. As always, look to the text. The background we need is all there.

Ever the good friend, Wilem stepped in with a distracting question. “What is that pause you keep doing?” he asked. “It’s like you can’t catch your breath.”
“I asked that too,” Fela said, smiling.
“It’s something they use in Eld Vintic verse,” Sim explained. “It’s a break in the line called a caesura."


Note that it’s Eld Vintic verse. Note that Calanthis is the Eld Vintic name for flits. Note that the royal line, Alveron’s word chosen rather than family, bears an Eld Vintic name. Caesura is meant to break an Eld Vintic line.*

Vashet took the scabbard from the wall and sheathed the sword. Then she turned and held it out to me. “This is named Saicere.”
“Caesura?” I asked, startled by the name. Wasn’t that what Sim had called the break in the line of Eld Vintic verse? Was I being given a poet’s sword?
“Saicere,” she said softly, as if it were the name of God. She stepped back, and I felt the weight of it settle back into my hands.
Sensing something was expected of me, I drew it from its sheath. The faint ring of leather and metal seemed a whisper of its name: Saicere. It felt light in my hand. The blade was flawless. I slid it back into its sheath and the sound was different. It sounded like the breaking of a line. It said: Caesura.


The symbolic killing is set to become a violent reality.

How can I say this so you can understand? Saicere was a fine name. It was thin and bright and dangerous. It fit the sword like a glove fits a hand.
But it wasn’t the perfect name. This sword’s name was Caesura. This sword was the jarring break in a line of perfect verse. It was the broken breath. It was smooth and swift and sharp and deadly. The name didn’t fit like a glove. It fit like skin. More than that. It was bone and muscle and movement. Those things are the hand. And Caesura was the sword. It was the both the name and the thing itself.


Saicere is meant for killing. For cutting down in the prime of life. Kvothe puts it to use almost immediately on the road to Levinshir. But it has a greater destiny ahead.

“I could not help but notice that you are armed,” he remarked, disapproval heavy on his voice.
My hand went unconsciously to Caesura. It was at my hip now, rather than over my shoulder. “Is there aught amiss with that, your grace? I have understood that all men keep the right to gird themselves in Vintas.”
“It is hardly proper.” He stressed the word.
“I understand that in the king’s court in Renere, there’s not a gentleman would dare be seen without a sword.”
“Well-spoken as you are, you are no gentleman,” Alveron pointed out coolly, “as you would do well to remember.”
I said nothing.
“Besides, it is a barbarian custom, and one that will bring the king to grief in time."


The last line, of course, has been the pivot on which the speculation that Roderic is the eponymous king turned. It's quite glaring what with the barbarous Kvothe and the disastrous foreshadowing. However, up to this point we haven’t been able to put together a solid literary case for it. There are a lot of kings, potential kings, and schemers. Now, we have a pretty much bulletproof connection between Saicere and Roderic Calathis.

*That break isn't exactly visually obvious in the Kindle version or the hardcover. However, a poster at Westeros (link) succintly compared it to Old Norse Eddaic poetry and Tolkien's The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrún a few weeks after WMF was published. Pat's "The Lay of the Eastern King," which appears inClash of the Geeks, is printed with wide spaces in the middle of the lines to emphasize that pause.

#220 allenczhang

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

That's absolutely genius - yes, I'm sure roderic is going to be the kill killed after reading through your post... It's perfect.
I knew Kvothe's naming of Caesura was significant. And "Caesura is meant to break an Eld Vintic line" just convinces me Roderic is going to die. Maybe the Maer asks him to kill Roderic? I'm pretty sure Kvothe and the Maer link up again.

I really need to read through all the comments on tor.com. Maybe after AP tests. XD
Can't wait until the book comes out. :3 Next year for sure? Hopefully?

Edited by allenczhang, 01 May 2013 - 11:02 PM.