The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[thistlepong]

This might sound a little odd but has anyone else noticed similarities between Kvothe and Rick from Casablanca?

I was never tempted to write, or read for that matter, fan fiction. I understood it in a sort of academic sense. This is the second thing this week that brought to a fuller understanding of the delights inherent in the form.

So thanks.

Devan Lochees as Major Heinrich Strasser? I can't decide if Bast is Renault, Ugarte, or Sam. I can imagine Denna walking in on the arm of the leader of the rebels. But that would have to be Ambrose to have any weight.

[Tears of Lys]

Chronicler as Strasser? I think not. That's fitting him for a suit that's not his size.

[Nisheeth]

If the Chandrian didn't kill the troupe then why were they there? Why did cinder threaten to kill Kvothe? What's with the line 'Somebody's parents have been singing entirely the wrong kind of songs '? They weren't writing a song about the Amyr. Unless you're saying that Lanre is an Amyr not one of the Chandrian.

They could have been moving against another group, that was killing the troupe? They could have been lured there by that said group (which might have been the Amyr).

The song could as well have been against what the Amyr believe, as it could have been against.

The thing is, the event is shrouded in too much mystery, and we know too little to make much sense out of it. What we saw was from the eyes of a kid who had just seen everyone he knew dead. What's to say that what he told was not exactly as it happened, just as what he thought?

My previous post was about the fact that we don't know about the event. Mush of what we take for facts are actually only implied in that scene. I am skeptical about taking those things as facts.

[Gaston de Foix]

The Amyr aren't bound by any witnessing rule. That's Tehlu&Pals. In fact, that was at the heart of Selitos's refusal. Even so, Selitos witnessed Lanre's offense.

It's also probably important to allow the text to bound some of our observations about the Amyr and the Seven.

So, like, we have strong corroboration for the Chandrian slaughtering Greyfallow's Men. And we have Cinder's, “Someone’s parents have been singing entirely the wrong sort of songs," to suggest a reason. We have a weaker, but still fairly substantial, link between them and the Mauthen massacre. And lo, there was an urn depicting them. And we have a triangulation theory in the text suggesting they're able to home in on certain repetitions of data.

Arliden was yakking about their names and signs, and the urn held their images and signs, and the Adem know their names and signs, but have a tradition limiting the speaking thereof. Therefore we can be fairly certain that their concern centers around their signs and possibly their names and images.

On the other hand the best candidate for Amyr is Viari, who actually travels around the world acquiring texts and returning them to a library notably lacking and concrete references to 700-1000 years of Amyr history. The Amyr's who project was to "confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian." So my guess would be that the lack of textual references would be their doing.

My suspicion is that actually the Amyr and the Chandrian share a common goal in destroying all references to the Chandrian. The Amyr do so because they don't want people accidentally inviting the attention of the Chandrian, and the Chandrian do so because they don't want people learning about their vulnerabilities. One of the striking things about the Chandrian is, sort of like Felurian, they are not men, but almost archetypes. The more people understand those archetypes, the more vulnerable they are to Namers learning their Name.

[two_by_two]

They could have been moving against another group, that was killing the troupe? They could have been lured there by that said group (which might have been the Amyr).

The song could as well have been against what the Amyr believe, as it could have been against.

The thing is, the event is shrouded in too much mystery, and we know too little to make much sense out of it. What we saw was from the eyes of a kid who had just seen everyone he knew dead. What's to say that what he told was not exactly as it happened, just as what he thought?

My previous post was about the fact that we don't know about the event. Mush of what we take for facts are actually only implied in that scene. I am skeptical about taking those things as facts.

Occam's Razor, though. If it looks like the Chandrian killed Greyfallow's troupe, and it quacks like the Chandrian killed Greyfallow's troupe, then the Chandrian probably killed Greyfallow's troupe.

[Loslathdos]

“You are approaching my displeasure. This one has done nothing. Send him to the soft and painless blanket of his sleep.” The cool voice caught slightly on the last word, as if it were difficult to say.

When ever I read that I always interpreted it as killing him, and sending him to the soft painless sleep of death.

[Nisheeth]

When ever I read that I always interpreted it as killing him, and sending him to the soft painless sleep of death.

I thought the same when I read it first. When I read it a second time, soon after reading the part where Kvothe tells us about the four doors of the mind, this just popped up. For haliax, who can not go though any of the four doors, Sleep and Death, the distinction would be very important.

One more thing was that After that encounter Kvothe was able to sleep quite well, regarding his surroundings.

[Loslathdos]

I thought the same when I read it first. When I read it a second time, soon after reading the part where Kvothe tells us about the four doors of the mind, this just popped up. For haliax, who can not go though any of the four doors, Sleep and Death, the distinction would be very important.

One more thing was that After that encounter Kvothe was able to sleep quite well, regarding his surroundings.

He was in shock, he was tired and hungry of course he would sleep

[Nisheeth]

He was in shock, he was tired and hungry of course he would sleep

Shock can prevent sleep as well. What I am saying is, his first instinct, as a human, would not be to provide rest to his body. It would be to get it to safety. He was more afraid than he was tired. His natural instincts should have taken over him.

And on the thing I said about Haliax, I remembered that there was a theory that Haliax had done something to Kvothe, that made him act like he did, that was until Skarpi used his name (which he had never told Skarpi).

[thistlepong]

@Jumbles

Pat confirmed the lower case instance of "singers" in the amyr/singers/sithe lines was a typo. I'll look for the link(s) but you can safely capitalize it in your post(s).

[thistlepong]

And on the thing I said about Haliax, I remembered that there was a theory that Haliax had done something to Kvothe, that made him act like he did, that was until Skarpi used his name (which he had never told Skarpi).

I think I brought it over here, but it's easier just to credit the initiator at Tor: Susan Loyal. Later on in the thread, Corwin of Amber adds a bit or two to it. And Jo Walton, opens her Rothfuss Reread: The Name of the Wind, Part 5: Too Much Truth Confuses the Facts with a summary. It's become Fanon over there because nothing else even comes close to explaining Tarbean.

[Nisheeth]

I think I brought it over here, but it's easier just to credit the initiator at Tor: Susan Loyal. Later on in the thread, Corwin of Amber adds a bit or two to it. And Jo Walton, opens her Rothfuss Reread: The Name of the Wind, Part 5: Too Much Truth Confuses the Facts with a summary. It's become Fanon over there because nothing else even comes close to explaining Tarbean.

Ah yes, that was where I read it. Thanks for the links thistlepong. You are great.

[thistlepong]

Denna's song isn't different from Arliden's. She moves around more than he did with Greyfallow's Men. They tried to get her in Trebon. They're closing in on her in Vintas. That's why Cinder's in the Eld for no reason. She's too crafty. She leaves the morning after playing the song for Kvothe.

[tze]

Occam's Razor, though. If it looks like the Chandrian killed Greyfallow's troupe, and it quacks like the Chandrian killed Greyfallow's troupe, then the Chandrian probably killed Greyfallow's troupe.

On the other hand, we have the example of the burning of Master Rhetorician's rooms. There, two parties, Elodin and Kvothe---one of them a Master of the University, the other a member of an ethnic group notorious for their unlawful ways (and a person who has, let's not forget, set fire to something belonging to Hemme (his leg) in the past)---were spotted in the vicinity of Hemme's rooms. Occam's Razor says that if you see a firestarting Ruh near your chambers, and five minutes later those chambers have been mysteriously set on fire, then Kvothe is pretty obviously guilty as hell.

Except we know that Hemme was wrong in blaming Kvothe instead of Elodin. Confronted by two potentially guilty people, he chose to assign blame to the person he just naturally assumed, given his knowledge base, must logically be guilty. And he was wrong. That whole incident was hilarious, of course, but I wonder if it was stuck in there at least partially as a hint that, in the other infamous incident in which a crime was committed by one of two parties (the Chandrian and the Amyr), readers (and Kvothe) have actually been laying the blame on the wrong group.

[Loslathdos]

On the other hand, we have the example of the burning of Master Rhetorician's rooms. There, two parties, Elodin and Kvothe---one of them a Master of the University, the other a member of an ethnic group notorious for their unlawful ways (and a person who has, let's not forget, set fire to something belonging to Hemme (his leg) in the past)---were spotted in the vicinity of Hemme's rooms. Occam's Razor says that if you see a firestarting Ruh near your chambers, and five minutes later those chambers have been mysteriously set on fire, then Kvothe is pretty obviously guilty as hell.

Except we know that Hemme was wrong in blaming Kvothe instead of Elodin. Confronted by two potentially guilty people, he chose to assign blame to the person he just naturally assumed, given his knowledge base, must logically be guilty. And he was wrong. That whole incident was hilarious, of course, but I wonder if it was stuck in there at least partially as a hint that, in the other infamous incident in which a crime was committed by one of two parties (the Chandrian and the Amyr), readers (and Kvothe) have actually been laying the blame on the wrong group.

I feel you've reached a point where you are looking into things too much

[thistlepong]

On the other hand, we have the example of the burning of Master Rhetorician's rooms. There, two parties, Elodin and Kvothe---one of them a Master of the University, the other a member of an ethnic group notorious for their unlawful ways (and a person who has, let's not forget, set fire to something belonging to Hemme (his leg) in the past)---were spotted in the vicinity of Hemme's rooms. Occam's Razor says that if you see a firestarting Ruh near your chambers, and five minutes later those chambers have been mysteriously set on fire, then Kvothe is pretty obviously guilty as hell.

Except we know that Hemme was wrong in blaming Kvothe instead of Elodin. Confronted by two potentially guilty people, he chose to assign blame to the person he just naturally assumed, given his knowledge base, must logically be guilty. And he was wrong. That whole incident was hilarious, of course, but I wonder if it was stuck in there at least partially as a hint that, in the other infamous incident in which a crime was committed by one of two parties (the Chandrian and the Amyr), readers (and Kvothe) have actually been laying the blame on the wrong group.

This made me miss the "like" button. Keep in mind that occam's razor is an heuristic convenience, not a natural law which wouldn't necessarily apply to fiction in either case. Tze's not imagining things here. If it were a single instance, we might dismiss it. It's not. Both of Kvothe's suspensions from the Archives, technically justifiable, are muddied by extenuating circumstances. Misatribution has arguably positive effects in the case of Alveron and Meluan. It has a variety of effects in the cas of Alleg's troupe. In short, it's not the kind of thing Rothfuss takes lightly.

And really, I found something interesting yesterday while looking for chapter parallels that I thought might be interesting, but wasn't really part of any current discussion. And the you post that... Anyway, you might like this:

They had killed my parents for gathering stories about them. They had killed my whole troupe over a song. I sat awake all night with little more than these thoughts running through my head. Slowly I came to realize them as the truth. (emphasis mine)

[thistlepong]

I feel you've reached a point where you are looking into things too much

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Tears of Lys]

Loslathdos, **I** also at one time thought people were looking into things too much, but after reading this and the many other threads about the Kingkiller Chronicles **and** the Jo Walton at Tor essays, Rothfuss Reread: The Name of the Wind, Part 5: Too Much Truth Confuses the Facts , I'm not so sure anymore.

[thistlepong]

Did I say this, or something like it, here before? Whatever. Prolly bears repeating every now and then.

The Kingkiller Chronicle was fourteen years in the writing. Add another four for The Wise Man's Fear, and probably another 2-4 for the final volume. That's a lot of time in which to write and revise a story.

The four books associated with Philip K. Dick's theophany, along with the associated exegesis, were an eight year endeavor. That's a series brimming over with ideas and references with no underlying structure. It's kind of just a struggle to understand an experience.

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was seven years in the planning. The whole series a little over seventeen. I doubt it's fashionable to say so around here, and I probably would have scoffed a couple years ago myself, but the plotting and pacing of those novels is extremely satisfying. And the underlying structures and symbol sets are, well, fantastic,

Sure, some of our speculations are undoubtedly epileptic trees off the rails. But I have to reject the notion that we're looking too closely.

[Ninefingers]

Dumb question:

Lanre = Haliax (At least strongly implied according to the Scarpi & Trapis stories),

but does Lanre = Haliax = Encanis? It seems to me that there are too many coincidences/similarities - Encanis destroying 7-ish cities, darkness shrouding his face, etc

Apologies if this has already been discussed and put to bed - but if someone could share with me the generally accepted thinking on this, I'd be grateful.