The Wise Man's Fear IX [Spoilers & Speculation]

[Tears of Lys]

The Namers of old knew the nature of things and could live in concert with them, respecting them IOW, whereas the Shapers bent the things they could name to their will. When Kvothe first goes through the Sword Tree, he's acting like a Namer - he knows the Wind so well he can anticipate where it will blow the knife-like leaves and therefore avoid being cut. When he returns through the Sword Tree, however, he's acting like more of a Shaper - he's calming the wind, thereby enabling his safe passage out. (ETA: Just building on Red Wanderer's post.)

At least, that's how I recall that section of the book. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Felurian seems to dislike the Shapers, although maybe she was just correcting Kvothe's misinterpretation of what an Old Namer was.

[Slick Mongoose]

I always thought of it slightly differently.

Kvothe calling the wind is naming, the wind remains wind, and acts according to its nature. It is in the nature of wind to blow, or to be still, and asking it to do these things is naming. Just like it is in the nature of stone to be solid, or to break, and it is in the nature of fire to burn, or to not burn.

Whereas asking the stone to glow in the dark would be shaping it into something different. Or, for example, using the name of a fruit to turn it into a new and interesting fruit would not be in its nature, it would be shaping it into something else.

[erikpfeiffer15]

I think I agree with this:

When Kvothe first goes through the Sword Tree, he's acting like a Namer - he knows the Wind so well he can anticipate where it will blow the knife-like leaves and therefore avoid being cut. When he returns through the Sword Tree, however, he's acting like more of a Shaper - he's calming the wind, thereby enabling his safe passage out.

And disagree with this:

Kvothe calling the wind is naming, the wind remains wind, and acts according to its nature. It is in the nature of wind to blow, or to be still, and asking it to do these things is naming. Just like it is in the nature of stone to be solid, or to break, and it is in the nature of fire to burn, or to not burn. Whereas asking the stone to glow in the dark would be shaping it into something different. Or, for example, using the name of a fruit to turn it into a new and interesting fruit would not be in its nature, it would be shaping it into something else.

Just because it's in something nature to do something, doesn't imply that's not forced mastery over it. For example, if a person could control another's actions, let's say make them do jumping jacks against their will, you have mastery over that person even if a body is designed to do jumping jacks. So just because the wind can blow or not blow, Kvothe still bent it to his will on the way out of the sword tree.

[thistlepong]

I apologize if this is a bit of a non-sequitur, but I didn't see a similar theory in my cursory check of these forums and I thought this was worth bringing up.

It's been discussed, but this thread was pretty dusty let alone the preceding eight. There are bits of your post that succintly express a lot of what's been said or speculated, though. "Understanding vs. control is a serious ideological difference that could easily lead to war, whereas permanent vs. transitory is somewhat less so. Lastly, Iax's most famous act as a shaper was to steal the moon, an act that would not require any form of physical creation."

I got the impression the Latantha pretty much taught naming. When Vashet calls him a showboat it's partially because he stills the wind. Not some sort of fantastic wizard of beneficiary of coincidence.

[Tears of Lys]

So the Latantha, the Sword Tree, is a method of teaching Naming? This is a pretty momentous thing, if it's true.

But I have a hard time believing that so many students of this path actually acquire this skill (Naming.) Take Tempe, for instance. He would have had to be tested by the Sword Tree in his training. Would he then be considered (outside Ademre) as a Namer?

Granted, it's a pretty subtle thing. And can a Namer also be a Shaper and vice versa?

[jumbles]

First, thanks, Red Wanderer, for getting people talking on here again. The topic you brought up should have been included in this post at the beginning of the thread, but somehow I missed including it. It's there now, in the Theories of Note category. While combing through these threads for posts for that, I also decided to add talk about the types of magic. I started with the post that first linked a Pat Rothfuss interview where he talked about; I figured starting earlier would include too much arguing about things he made clearer in that interview. The types of magic are in the Understanding the Four Corners category.

Also while going through the threads I came up with some more ideas.

First off, I saw a lot of argumentation about whether Fela making her ring of stone was Shaping. Those against argued that Shaping required making a fundamental change in something and that the stone was still a stone. I see two problems with the argument. First, we've never actually been told what Shaping is; we don't know that a fundamental change is necessary. Second, even if a fundamental change is necessary, I would think that each individual stone has its own Name. Each person has their own Name; I doubt knowing Felurian's Name would mean knowing every Fae's Name. Everything about something is a part of its Name, knowing the "Name of stone" doesn't mean you know every stone's Name, it means you shouldn't have much trouble learning the Name of a particular stone. Changing a stone's shape or physical appearance changes part of what makes up its Name, so I would think that that fits the definition of a fundamental change for these purposes.

Another thing I saw was people talking about the Faen language. I feel like the Faen realm is at least as big, and probably bigger than, the Four Corners. The Four Corners is home to several different languages, why shouldn't the Faen realm also have multiple languages? The Faen seem to differ from each other more than the different human groups do. Also, after the skin dancer attack in NotW, Bast said he couldn't understand what it was saying. Granted, Bast did say it sounded archaic, which would suggest an older version of Bast's language, which in turn suggests just one Faen language since skin dancers are from as far away from Bast's land as you can get in the Fae.

Lastly, regarding the ranks in the Arcanum and Hespe's story about Iax... Perhaps the items Iax procured from the Tinker provide hints about the ranks in the Arcanum (or just things you can do with Names). The glasses are for seeing (E'lir). The flute is for speaking (Re'lar). The folding house is for shaping. The box is for locking. There are some problems with this. Maybe instead the flute is for singing or shaping instead. Maybe speaking and shaping are the same thing. Since the folding house represents the Fae, and Felurian says that the greatest shaper "sewed it from whole cloth" (WMFc102), maybe instead the folding house is for Grammarie since magical sewing sounds like what Felurian did to make Kvothe's shaed, and I assume that was primarily Grammarie. Also, I found places for E'lir and Re'lar, but where does El'the fit in? Would it be Shaper or Locker? Or am I just totally off my rocker?

ETA: I forgot to talk more about the box being for locking. Locking could be some special Naming to protect something from being Named. Or it could be a locking knack like the lock knack that some think Kvothe has.

[thistlepong]

So the Latantha, the Sword Tree, is a method of teaching Naming? This is a pretty momentous thing, if it's true.

But I have a hard time believing that so many students of this path actually acquire this skill (Naming.) Take Tempe, for instance. He would have had to be tested by the Sword Tree in his training. Would he then be considered (outside Ademre) as a Namer?

Granted, it's a pretty subtle thing. And can a Namer also be a Shaper and vice versa?

It's definitely something I think rather something I can overwhelm with evidence. But there are a lot of hints to that effect. The origin story where Rethe looses a ribbon that flutters through the wind to strike Aethe in the heart. Magwyn's gaze being described the same way as Elodin's. Their utter lack of surprise, even in private, of Kvothe's performance at the sword tree.

I think it says Tempi tried the Sword Tree, formally, three times. And that he's not very bright. It'd be technically possible to fight your way through, I think. But the folks who really get it would anticipate, or more appropriately see, the wind. It wouldn't have to be more than one name for most folks, and they might never need call it that. But it'd give a tremendous advantage in a fight.

I think all a Namer has to do to be a Shaper is look at thing and think of changing it. Well, and actually speak it's name and change it. Kvothe in the library knows the name of the wind. Kvothe at the Sword Tree shapes it.

[thistlepong]

Lastly, regarding the ranks in the Arcanum and Hespe's story about Iax... Perhaps the items Iax procured from the Tinker provide hints about the ranks in the Arcanum (or just things you can do with Names). The glasses are for seeing (E'lir). The flute is for speaking (Re'lar). The folding house is for shaping. The box is for locking. There are some problems with this. Maybe instead the flute is for singing or shaping instead. Maybe speaking and shaping are the same thing. Since the folding house represents the Fae, and Felurian says that the greatest shaper "sewed it from whole cloth" (WMFc102), maybe instead the folding house is for Grammarie since magical sewing sounds like what Felurian did to make Kvothe's shaed, and I assume that was primarily Grammarie. Also, I found places for E'lir and Re'lar, but where does El'the fit in? Would it be Shaper or Locker? Or am I just totally off my rocker?

ETA: I forgot to talk more about the box being for locking. Locking could be some special Naming to protect something from being Named. Or it could be a locking knack like the lock knack that some think Kvothe has.

That's a terribly clever interpretation of the Jax items, Jumbles. There's been some speculation that the "binding" used by Lanre, Selitos, and Chronicler might represent a skill altogether different from naming. The box, for Binding, would fit nicely if it is.

I think Pat's confirmed that Faen magic, Glamourie and Grammarie, is entirely different from Corners magics. It would seem incongruous to have the story represent both sets on a continuum.

I initially thought the ranks were E'lir, Re'lar, El'the, and Gil'the. Gil'the is another name for guilder, which only Arcanists have, and it fit with the others as the only other apostropocalypse word. In your system El'the would be namer/shaper and Gil'the would maybe be Binder.

[Nisheeth]

It's definitely something I think rather something I can overwhelm with evidence. But there are a lot of hints to that effect. The origin story where Rethe looses a ribbon that flutters through the wind to strike Aethe in the heart. Magwyn's gaze being described the same way as Elodin's. Their utter lack of surprise, even in private, of Kvothe's performance at the sword tree.

I think it says Tempi tried the Sword Tree, formally, three times. And that he's not very bright. It'd be technically possible to fight your way through, I think. But the folks who really get it would anticipate, or more appropriately see, the wind. It wouldn't have to be more than one name for most folks, and they might never need call it that. But it'd give a tremendous advantage in a fight.

I think all a Namer has to do to be a Shaper is look at thing and think of changing it. Well, and actually speak it's name and change it. Kvothe in the library knows the name of the wind. Kvothe at the Sword Tree shapes it.

I was reading the Felurian section again, and I noticed something that is, sort of, not exactly in support of the theory that the FC Naming is shaping. We know that Kvothe names Felurian, and the wind. He controls it like he did with the Sword Tree, but to hold her. But before she offers to make a shaed for him she calls him a deep knower. She, who had lived before, and through, the Shaper-Knower War (do we know that it was the Creation War?), would be more careful of the distinction the two.

"Here is the quote:

"you are a long walker. you find me in the wild at night. you are a deep knower and bold. and young. and trouble finds you"

[jumbles]

That's a terribly clever interpretation of the Jax items, Jumbles. There's been some speculation that the "binding" used by Lanre, Selitos, and Chronicler might represent a skill altogether different from naming. The box, for Binding, would fit nicely if it is.

I think Pat's confirmed that Faen magic, Glamourie and Grammarie, is entirely different from Corners magics. It would seem incongruous to have the story represent both sets on a continuum.

I initially thought the ranks were E'lir, Re'lar, El'the, and Gil'the. Gil'the is another name for guilder, which only Arcanists have, and it fit with the others as the only other apostropocalypse word. In your system El'the would be namer/shaper and Gil'the would maybe be Binder.

Hm, I like the binding idea. I was thinking locking because of the emphasis on locks in the books and also because of Tehlu's name, but binding is good too.

And I'm glad you included Chronicler in that list of binders, because what he did with iron has always bugged me. Even though both he and Kote referred to what he did as naming, I was perplexed by how similar to sympathy it seemed. But comparing him to Lanre and Selitos helps me make more sense of it.

Also, I'm glad I actually looked up apostropocalypse. I was going to assume you meant words with apostrophes were harbingers of the apocolypse or that we were being overwhelmed by words with apostrophes. But now I'm guessing you are suggesting that the word gilthe in the book used to have an apostrophe, a very sharp thought.

[two_by_two]

I was reading the Felurian section again, and I noticed something that is, sort of, not exactly in support of the theory that the FC Naming is shaping. We know that Kvothe names Felurian, and the wind. He controls it like he did with the Sword Tree, but to hold her. But before she offers to make a shaed for him she calls him a deep knower. She, who had lived before, and through, the Shaper-Knower War (do we know that it was the Creation War?), would be more careful of the distinction the two.

"Here is the quote:

"you are a long walker. you find me in the wild at night. you are a deep knower and bold. and young. and trouble finds you"

wow I'm kind of embarrassed that we didn't notice this before, given how much stress we've been putting on knowers vs. shapers

but doesn't this actually suggest that what he did was Knowing rather than Shaping?

[Nisheeth]

wow I'm kind of embarrassed that we didn't notice this before, given how much stress we've been putting on knowers vs. shapers

but doesn't this actually suggest that what he did was Knowing rather than Shaping?

It does. And throws the idea that what Kvothe did when entering the Sword tree was Knowing, and what he did when he was leaving was Shaping.

--------------------

Now for some things I noticed when reading the second book again:

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The Bow used by Aethe (founder of the Adem schools) was made of horn. So did the Sithe. Now this might be me simply seeing things that are not there, because I know less than nothing about bows in real life.

--------------------

When Kvothe is training with Tempi on his way to Haert, he collapsed. When Tempi is telling him that he is beginning to see what the Lethani was, Kvothe says his Aturan is getting well. Tempi replies that they weren't speaking in Aturan, but Adem. Now this is the interesting quote

"I'm not speaking ... " I started to protest, but as I listened to the words I was using.

Sceopa Teyas

. My head reeled for a moment.

Now this reminds me of that story to Sim and Wil, about Sceop.

--------------------

This was how Kvote described Yllish:

You couldn't merely say "the Chancellor's socks." Oh no. Too Simple. All ownership was oddly dial: as if the Chancellor owned his socks, but at the same time the socks somehow also gained ownership of the the Chancellor. This altered the use of both words in complex grammatical ways. As if the simple act of owning socks somehow fundamentally changed the nature of a person.

Now the way Yllish describes the nature of the object it is speaking about reminds me how Naming involves describing the nature of a thing. For that purpose, this seems like a very good language. And if the people who made the language had such understanding of teh nature of an object, were they all skilled Namers?

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When Kvothe and Denna go to the river (I think the chapter is titled "The Stories of Stones"), the way Denna tells Kvothe to listen to the stone reminds me of the Hermit from Hespe's story.

[jumbles]

Just a heads up to anyone who cares. I've updated my post at the beginning of this thread. I expanded and renamed the topic El'the Means Listener. Now it is called Meanings of El'the and Gilthe.

[Poobah]

You're all tempting me to re-read NotW and WMF which I decided not to do will Doors of Stone was at least on the horizon, and as far as I'm aware it doesn't even have a release date yet ><

[jumbles]

Yeah, I'm also trying not to read the books again until right before book 3 comes out. So far it's not too much of a challenge since I have so much else to read and since I've already read the books so many times.

Though actually now that I say that, I think I've only read the books three times. I guess it seems like more times because of how long they are. Also probably because of how much I talk about them on here.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm rereading TWMF. Good lord is Kvothe a hypocrite. Ruh don't steal but Kvothe's knack is thevery. People shouldn't be snobs unless they're clever muscians like Kvothe. Kvothe's flaw isn't just arrogance it's also hypocrisy.

[Tears of Lys]

I know. Funny, huh? Almost like Rothfuss did that on purpose. ;)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ToL,

Oh, without question.

[thistlepong]

I'm rereading TWMF. Good lord is Kvothe a hypocrite. Ruh don't steal but Kvothe's knack is thevery. People shouldn't be snobs unless they're clever muscians like Kvothe. Kvothe's flaw isn't just arrogance it's also hypocrisy.

It's so refreshing to see folks just accept that instead of running in circles forming apologia for him. It's like his core trait and the first person narrative is barely obfuscating it. Pulling out the "Ruh don't steal but Kvothe's knack is thevery." in particular, I'm forced to wonder, again, what your average Edema Ruh thinks of the second most famous, after Illien, being Kvothe Kingkiller.

We get a long lecture on Ruh law and the broken circle brand and I keep wondering if, "All the scars were smooth and silver except one," is exactly that. Thanks, dick, we didn't exactly have it easy beforehand.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Something just struck me. At the start of Denna's Lanre song she said he was "a man who turned his hand toward a purpose few could bear". Rephrase that... he was willing to act, "For the Greater Good". Hell, Haliax was pissed that Cinder liked killing Kvothe's troop. He see's what he is doing as "necessary" but not pleasant willing to bet that the Amyr are allied with the Chandrian. That means Ash/(Bredon) is likely Amyr too.