Could Jon Snow actually be Aegon Targaryen

[FacelessDude]

And Varys is actually Egg...

[Skoboe]

GRRM has said that a year is twelve moons. Also, Daenerys says that she was born nine moons after her mother fled from King's Landing. Gestation = nine months. Year = twelve months.

Aegon was a year old when King's Landing fell. Robb was a mere newborn, and Jon was younger, obviously than Robb. If he looked to be the same age or older, then Catelyn has no cause for jealousy. Ergo: Aegon =/= Jon

I don't subscribe to the Jon = Aegon theory by the way, but don't confuse Earth moon cycles with months in the modern calendar here on Earth.

An Earth year is 13 moon cycles, and pregnancy lasts for 10 cycles, not 9. But that's on Earth.

Dany being born 9 moons after her mother fled still doesn't explain anything in terms of how long a year in Westeros lasts...how many moons was her mother pregnant before fleeing??

If Dany was conceived the night she fled, and if she was born on the due date, then a Westerosi year is a touch over 53 Earth weeks according to the 9/12 moon thing.

But if Dany's mother was already pregnant then the year becomes shorter than an Earth year (e.g. if she was 3 moons pregnant then the year comes down to 40 Earth weeks; one exact gestation period), which may help with the OPs timeline, but makes the idea of a 9 year old girl stabbing people even more ludicrous as the 9 year old becomes the equivalent of someone on Earth being just 6 years, 11 months old!

[The Dragon King]

Young Griff is real Jon Snow....there I said it

I like it, Griff is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon Snow is the son of Brandon/Ned and Ashara Dayne.

[J. Stargaryen]

I like it, Griff is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon Snow is the son of Brandon/Ned and Ashara Dayne.

Not possible. Brandon died months before Jon was conceived.

[danm_999]

If Jon was actually Aegon, why would Ned think of Rhaegar's murdered infant son in AGoT?

[The Dragon King]

Not possible. Brandon died months before Jon was conceived.

Then it was Neds bastard with Ashara Dayne!

[J. Stargaryen]

Then it was Neds bastard with Ashara Dayne!

Guess again. :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I just want to say that it continually amazes me how people make Jon's birth story/parentage far more complicated and convoluted than it needs to be. I guess it's a side effect of having to wait so long in between books, but eesh.

[MtnLion]

I don't subscribe to the Jon = Aegon theory by the way, but don't confuse Earth moon cycles with months in the modern calendar here on Earth.

An Earth year is 13 moon cycles, and pregnancy lasts for 10 cycles, not 9. But that's on Earth.

Dany being born 9 moons after her mother fled still doesn't explain anything in terms of how long a year in Westeros lasts...how many moons was her mother pregnant before fleeing??

If Dany was conceived the night she fled, and if she was born on the due date, then a Westerosi year is a touch over 53 Earth weeks according to the 9/12 moon thing.

But if Dany's mother was already pregnant then the year becomes shorter than an Earth year (e.g. if she was 3 moons pregnant then the year comes down to 40 Earth weeks; one exact gestation period), which may help with the OPs timeline, but makes the idea of a 9 year old girl stabbing people even more ludicrous as the 9 year old becomes the equivalent of someone on Earth being just 6 years, 11 months old!

Then perhaps we would want to investigate with GRRM how many days there are in a week? A fortnight? A turn of the moon? He has said that a year is twelve moons long, analogous to our twelve month years. Then if Daenerys is born more than nine months after Rhaella fled to Dragonstone she is someone's bastard on Dragonstone. She was conceived immediately before her mother fled, and it was a fortnight before King's Landing fell. Ser Chelsted was roasted, inspiring a visitor for the queen, and Jaime heard from her handmaidens what damage was done, the day she left.

I know that there are thirteen cycles of the moon for us earth dwellers, and I brought that up when we discussed this aspect. GRRM is taking literary license, it is his world, and he sets the gestation period. He has said months and moons interchangeably.

[Mr. Maester]

Hi folks,

I agree with the R+L=J theory, but I like the Jon=Aegon theory. Going for it is the general proximity of J and A's ages (I don't think the books definitively establish that A was at least a year older than J). The theory doesn't destroy R+L, because Lyanna could still have asked Ned to take care of Aegon out of love for Rhaegar. The hinting throughout the series that R+L=J has also been a lot less subtle than many of Martin's other twists and foreshadowing, and it would seem "just like him" to throw this sort of twist at us. But there are some major problems:

• Looks. As others have said, Jon looks like a Stark. I think Cat complains at one point that Jon looks more like a Stark than any of her sons. I don't get the sense that Elia and Lyanna looked anything alike, and Rhaegar definitely did not look like a Stark. There were no Starks close enough in Aegon's lineage to have transferred those looks to him.
  

• Ghost & Warging. Already mentioned. Jon must have inherited warging abilities from the Stark line. Also, him having a direwolf only makes sense if he has at least a little Stark blood in him.
  

• Ned's Obligation. I get why Ned would protect Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar. But regardless of his love for his sister, I don't see why he would jeopardize his own family by taking Aegon Targaryen, the legitimate and undisputed heir to the Iron Throne, into his House. (Then again, he's such an honorable guy, and advocated against killing Dany, so . . . .)
  

• Ned's Thoughts About Aegon. As already mentioned, I think Ned's POV is the one that introduced us to Aegon's fate at the hands of Ser Gregor (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think there is any hint in that section that Ned was aware Aegon was still alive, and I think if it were true, Martin would have given that piece of info to someone else.
  

• Ned's Promise To Jon. I think Ned at one point assures Jon that Jon has Stark blood in him (something like you may be a bastard, but you have my blood . . . .). Also, he promises Jon that next time he sees Jon (after Jon has sworn for the Night's Watch), they'll talk about his mother. I believe Ned meant to tell him the truth of his ancestry, but only after he had sworn his vow and bound himself from seeking Rhaegar's title (ala Maester Aemon). These statements and vows make more sense with R+L=J.
  

• I also think R+L=J makes more sense with the overall story. This is a song of ice and fire, after all. Jon being Aegon, and thus half Targaryen and half Dornish, would make it more like the song of fire and fire raised by ice. Just not as neat.
  

[The Mother of The Others]

what if that lady back then who supposedly jumped off of a tower soon after giving birth (to a "stillborn"?) really did so because a baby switch had taken her babe away to die as a double for baby Aegon (the one who got smashed), and this allowed the real Aegon to go with Ned from Tower of Joy to be raised as Snow? Sounds neato. Uh, there'd be that additional Lyanna born baby to add in to the mix, too. Unless she was in a pool of blood for some other reason than giving birth?? Too late at night for this.

[TheReal_Rebel]

One thing is possible, that Rhaeghar may have asked Lyanna to name a male baby Aegon due having nightmares foretelling of the death of his son by Elia. It was Ned who named the baby Jon. Jon's true name may be Aegon.

Howland Reed is going to show up in at least one of the next books and will be doing lots of explaining, I've no doubt.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Hi folks,

[*Ned's Obligation. I get why Ned would protect Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar. But regardless of his love for his sister, I don't see why he would jeopardize his own family by taking Aegon Targaryen, the legitimate and undisputed heir to the Iron Throne, into his House. (Then again, he's such an honorable guy, and advocated against

Because his sister's son IS his family and why it was safer if everyone thought Jon was his bastard. Robert would have killed Jon if he suspected.

[Mr. Maester]

Because his sister's son IS his family and why it was safer if everyone thought Jon was his bastard. Robert would have killed Jon if he suspected.

Like I said, I get why Ned would protect Lyanna's son by Rhaegar. But this theory is about Jon being Aegon, in which case Jon would NOT be Ned's family.

[Ygrain]

At the time of the Sack, Aegon Targaryen was, "Still a babe at the breast. A year old, give or take a turn or two."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/1999/09

[The Dragon King]

Guess again. :)

Why couldn't Griff be R+L, and Snow be N+A?

[Ygrain]

Why couldn't Griff be R+L, and Snow be N+A?

Because to fit the timeline for Jon's birth, as stated by GRRM (8-9 months before Dany, which places his birth at around the Sack and his conception into the Rebellion), we would need a convenient when and where for Ned and Ashara to meet. It is not impossible, but there are zero hints to this ever happening. Also, Ned spends no time in his PoV thinking about Ashara, but a whole lot about Lyanna.

[Greymoon]

Then perhaps we would want to investigate with GRRM how many days there are in a week? A fortnight? A turn of the moon? He has said that a year is twelve moons long, analogous to our twelve month years. Then if Daenerys is born more than nine months after Rhaella fled to Dragonstone she is someone's bastard on Dragonstone. She was conceived immediately before her mother fled, and it was a fortnight before King's Landing fell. Ser Chelsted was roasted, inspiring a visitor for the queen, and Jaime heard from her handmaidens what damage was done, the day she left.

I know that there are thirteen cycles of the moon for us earth dwellers, and I brought that up when we discussed this aspect. GRRM is taking literary license, it is his world, and he sets the gestation period. He has said months and moons interchangeably.

I don't think GRRM is making anything up, just being vague...:

A lunar calendar is a calendar that is based on cycles of the lunar phases. Because there are slightly more than twelve lunations (synodic months) in a solar year, the period of 12 lunar months (354.37 days) is sometimes referred to as a lunar year.

A common purely lunar calendar is the Islamic calendar or Hijri Qamari calendar. A feature of the Islamic calendar is that a year is always 12 months, so the months are not linked with the seasons and drift each solar year by 11 to 12 days. It comes back to the position it had in relation to the solar year approximately every 33 Islamic years. It is used mainly for religious purposes, but in Saudi Arabia it is the official calendar. Other lunar calendars often include extra months added occasionally to synchronize it with the solar calendar.

The oldest known lunar calendar was found in Scotland; it dates back to around 10000 BP.

^...

Most calendars referred to as "lunar" calendars are in fact lunisolar calendars. That is, months reflect the lunar cycle, but then intercalary months (e.g. "second Adar" in the Hebrew calendar) are added to bring the calendar year into synchronisation with the solar year. Some examples are the Chinese and Hindu calendars.Some other calendar systems used in antiquity were also lunisolar.

All these calendars have a variable number of months in a year. The reason for this is that a solar year is not equal in length to an exact number of lunations, so without the addition of intercalary months the seasons would drift each year. To synchronise the year, a thirteen-month year is needed every two or three years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_calendar

So..with a lunisolar calendar; months reflect the lunar cycle; a month is 28 days, there is 12 months -- besides for the odd year, where there is 13 months ;) that means, in universe characters might well equate a moon turn with a month. : this doesn't need to mean that the lunar phase is different in westeros, that the “years” are longer or shorter. Only that they have a different calendar -- one that would be more accurate, from a historical perspective imo.

Also while in universe 9 moons = 9 months, it might not be our months, if that makes sense, (but months with 28 days, only) and indeed a pregnancy should last 10 moons (280 days) even in asoiaf (imo, it'd be too complicated otherwise, and we know GRRM already has problems with the timeline...)

Dany was born nine moons after the sack, iirc, and GRRM has been purposely vague with all sorts of events pertaining to the Rebellion; how much time passed between the moment Rhaella fled KL, and the sack? Sometimes people say a "fortnight" and mean 12-13 days, other times they say a "fortnight" and mean 15, 16 days, no? a fortnight should be 14 days, normally. But when speaking broadly? Anyway....Dany might have been born 14 days too early; or the bruises on Rhaella might still have been visible even a week or so after Dany's conception. (do we have an indication of how much time passed between Ser Chelsted being roasted, and Rhaella leaving?)

In any case, it doesn't seem much of an issue. I'd just be careful to equate 12 westerosi (lunar months, imo) with 12 "normal" months, though.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Like I said, I get why Ned would protect Lyanna's son by Rhaegar. But this theory is about Jon being Aegon, in which case Jon would NOT be Ned's family.

I understand your post but I was using your comment to explain why Jon maybe Aegon but not by Elia.

Sorry for the confusion. Just answering how being both Lyanna's child & being Aegon Targaryeon could both be true as the title of thread asks.

[MtnLion]

Dany was born nine moons after the sack, iirc, and GRRM has been purposely vague with all sorts of events pertaining to the Rebellion; how much time passed between the moment Rhaella fled KL, and the sack? Sometimes people say a "fortnight" and mean 12-13 days, other times they say a "fortnight" and mean 15, 16 days, no? a fortnight should be 14 days, normally. But when speaking broadly? Anyway....Dany might have been born 14 days too early; or the bruises on Rhaella might still have been visible even a week or so after Dany's conception. (do we have an indication of how much time passed between Ser Chelsted being roasted, and Rhaella leaving?)

Here you go: Jaime says many things about this. First he says that he is outside Rhaella's bedroom during the rape that conceived Daenerys. Second he says that Jonothor Darry is present. Third he says that the pyromancer was the Hand for a fortnight. So, Daenerys was conceived a fortnight before Jaime slays the pyromancer Hand. Jonothor Darry dies at the Trident within that fortnight. News of the Trident leads to Rhaella being sent to Dragonstone, within that same fortnight. And, Ned arrives at King's Landing, victorious from the Trident, at the end of that fortnight.