Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Blisscraft]

Tywin's need to keep up appearances reminds of Eddie Izzard taking about JFK's "I am a Berliner" speech: people respond to 70% of how you look; 20% of how you say it; and 10% of what you say. Tywin relies upon appearances and this is perhaps why he wants to send Tyrion to "rule" in KL. Tyrion is Tywin's possession. "You are my son." Just as Jaime is also Tywin's possession. The fact that his sons "belong" to Tywin, almost as objects, not flesh and blood, and can be moved by from place to place by him is to maintain a fascade of power. With Tywin it's more than just "trappings" or seeming like power; he needs to be in complete control. Sadly, he's mistaken as to how little Tyrion will obey. Tyrion's disobedience begins with Shae.

[Lummel]

...Tyrion is Tywin's possession. "You are my son." Just as Jaime is also Tywin's possession. The fact that his sons "belong" to Tywin, almost as objects, not flesh and blood, and can be moved by from place to place by him is to maintain a fascade of power...

If we think of the game metaphor then for Tywin both Jaime and Tyrion are pieces to be deployed on the board to play and win advantage for team Lannister.

Certainly Littlefinger, Cersei and Prince Doran use the language of games in a way that suggests this way of thinking, although I am not sure if Tywin ever does.

[Ragnorak]

Welcome Lady Wendy

I think the Bismark sausage analogy is brilliant. To run with it a bit further I see the difference between Tywin and Bismark being that when Bismark looks in the mirror he admits to himself that he's a sausage maker. Tywin seems to have a very hypocritical view of himself. His retort to Tyrion about not sharing his plans regarding the vanguard is that Tyrion consorts with sellswords and savages. Yet we have Gregor, Vargo Hoat and his Bloody Mummers (who in a Tywin-like self delusion consider themselves "The Brave Companions"), and Jaime (who Tywin did give a command and share his plans with) was clearly consorting with sellswords since there was a group at Riverun who betrayed them. Tywin even wanted to "consort" with Tyrion's savages for a little rapine.

Here he says you don't sit dogs beside you at the high bench, but he has Gregor in his war councils and even though Gregor isn't mentioned last chapter's Lannister dinner:

There, beside his pavilion, Lord Tywin took his evening meal with his chief knights and lords bannermen, his great crimson-and-gold standard waving overhead from a lofty pike.

We're not there yet, but earlier I ran across the quote where Tywin tells Tyrion that even Tyrion ought not accuse him of actually ordering a rape. (uh... Tysha anyone?)

Tywin definitely believes in a public face of nobility and honor with a sausage factory to maintain power. Despite being the Sausage Maker in Chief, he seems to fully believe himself to be purely part of the noble and honorable face-- a man with clean hands to use our friend Littlefinger's term.

Regarding drinking and eating:

Is it symbolic that Tyrion first drinks out of Tywin's own cup, and then wants to throw it in his face? Tyrion accepts Tywin's deal, but afterwards he wants to throw it back into Tywin's face?

I definitely think this is symbolic. It reminds me of Tze's post and her take on Lannister beneficence. I also think Tyrion is being sent to hold the left again. Tywin admits Stannis is the one he fears the most and he has no clue what Stannis is up to. He's assigning Tyrion to deal with Stannis and also setting Tyrion up to assume responsibility for any defeat while Tywin himself commands the reserve to watch how the battle unfolds once his left breaks. Though I would certainly believe Tywin hopes to be surprised by Tyrion holding his left a second time.

This also got me thinking. I have long thought there were intentional parallels drawn between Gregor and Tywin and I wonder if there's a Sandor/Tyrion parallel here. Sandor lives for and dreams of killing Gregor but never does. At the Hand's Tourney he's even highly defensive and clearly not seizing on the moment as an excuse to try and fulfill his wish of killing his brother-- something holds him back. Tyrion, as we learn early on, has long dreamed of killing his father and something holds him back as well too. Both were innocent and idealistic prior to a life changing event. For Sandor it was the face burning at Gregor's hand that shattered his idealism of knighthood, and for Tyrion it was the Tysha incident orchestrated by his father that shattered his idealism of love. They both seem held back by some internal psychological issue, both have embraced aspects of their abuser, and they have both strongly embraced their family identity in their coping process in a very grey manner. Not entirely sure what to make of this yet, but its worth keeping in the back of the mind since Tyrion and Sandor are about to have some quality time together.

I was looking to see if Gregor dining with Tywin was mentioned anywhere at Harrenhal. I ran across this:

“Ser Gregor, he wasn’t paying no mind to none of our fun, but now he looks, you know how he does, and he commands that the girl be brought before him.

...

this besotted old fool says, ‘My Layna’s no whore, ser’ right to Gregor’s face. Ser, he never blinks, just says, ‘She is now’ tosses the old man another silver

...

when it’s all done, Ser tells the old man that he wants his change. The girl wasn’t worth a silver, he says… and damned if that old man didn’t fetch a fistful of coppers, beg m’lord’s pardon, and thank him for the custom!”

Aside from the obvious Tysha parallel, what does this tell us about "the look" Tywin gives Gregor?

ETA

@Blisscraft On a wholly unrelated note here is some completely useless trivia. German does not use articles for people and their professions or other identifications. So no I am a teacher, just I am teacher. Ich bin lehrer not Ich bin ein Lehrer. A Berliner is a German pastry so by including the article JFK essentially said "I am a donut."

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - you would love Izzard's joke. I'm not sure how to post a link to it. It's on Youtube, if you're interested.

[Lyanna Stark]

This also got me thinking. I have long thought there were intentional parallels drawn between Gregor and Tywin and I wonder if there's a Sandor/Tyrion parallel here. Sandor lives for and dreams of killing Gregor but never does. At the Hand's Tourney he's even highly defensive and clearly not seizing on the moment as an excuse to try and fulfill his wish of killing his brother-- something holds him back. Tyrion, as we learn early on, has long dreamed of killing his father and something holds him back as well too. Both were innocent and idealistic prior to a life changing event. For Sandor it was the face burning at Gregor's hand that shattered his idealism of knighthood, and for Tyrion it was the Tysha incident orchestrated by his father that shattered his idealism of love. They both seem held back by some internal psychological issue, both have embraced aspects of their abuser, and they have both strongly embraced their family identity in their coping process in a very grey manner. Not entirely sure what to make of this yet, but its worth keeping in the back of the mind since Tyrion and Sandor are about to have some quality time together.

I don't think this is unintentional. In the Sansa threads we've discussed a lot of La Belle et La Bete themes and the creation of the Beast is interesting in that both Tyrion and Sandor were created in various ways, by either Tywin directly, or by Tywin's tool: Gregor. We also see Tywin maintaining and enabling, but at the same time disliking the Beasts. A tool for every task, and beasts can be useful.

Also, Tyrion and Sandor are both hideous, and we know that during medieval times (which probably carries over to quasi medieval times) severe disfigurement was often not only considered being physical, but a sign of actual damage to the soul, i.e. it was the sign of a defective person. I think we see this between Tyrion and Sandor as well. Even if they share having been made victims, they also seem to share the prejudice against disfigurement, meaning Tyrion makes japes about a dog with half his face being chewed off looks prettier than the Hound and seems to only consider Sandor a mean brute, while the Hound declares to Sansa that the Imp is unnatural and ought to be killed. There is no love lost between these two, and it seems no mutual understanding (which could have been the case had they appreciated eachother's similarities).

We also see them both acting as Beasts to Sansa's beauty in ACOK, where Tyrion literally takes over where Sandor left.

Very interesting parallel between Gregor's treatment of the innkeepers daughter and what Tywin put Tysha through. The basic mentality is the same, even if Tywin is far more concerned with upholding an image of not in fact being a sausage maker (LOL @ that terminology. It will go well with floppy ears as well.)

On Barristan's sacking, it does not really matter how much of the responsibility was Cersei's (and she must take some, as ultimately it could not have happened without her agreeing), Tywin is still shying away from putting the blame on House Lannister.

Also, Cersei made Harys Swyft Hand (!) on AFfC, though I think she did demote him in a later reshuffle.

Since Lummel brought it up, I cheated as well. :P I still do think Cersei is, as you say, agreeing to this, so she must have some responsibility, but Tywin is conveniently ignoring that here.

[Ragnorak]

Blisscraft - Found it, very funny. I had no idea I am a donut was the actual substance of his joke/point. The look/say point is very applicable to Tywin-- and should Tywin declare himself a donut I doubt anyone would risk laughing at him.

Lummel - On the game metaphor Tywin clearly seems for more willing to engage in the sacrificial aspect of a gambit with his more valuable pieces (family members as rooks, knights, bishops) than almost any other player (except maybe Walder Frey who has so many pieces to spare.)

Lyanna Stark - I love the Beauty and the Beast analysis in the PtP thread. As obvious as it should be I had not yet pondered the origin of the Beast aspects of the tale. In the fairy tale version we have a sin followed by a curse which results in a change of heart leading to a quest for atonement. Here, in both cases we have an act of innocence treated like a sin resulting in a curse. The actual sin follows as a result of the curse and the change of heart is itself the internal struggle between Beauty and Beast where atonement is in question. Tyrion was born a Beast though not outwardly transformed into one by his curse where Sandor's curse is what creates his beastlike appearance. For those who might not know, Martin wrote for the TV series Beauty and the Beast so this is a myth he has played with extensively. The origins of Tyrion's Beast is something to ponder.

[Lummel]

...Very interesting parallel between Gregor's treatment of the innkeepers daughter and what Tywin put Tysha through. The basic mentality is the same, even if Tywin is far more concerned with upholding an image of not in fact being a sausage maker (LOL @ that terminology. It will go well with floppy ears as well.)

Oh take some credit for that yourself Lyanna, you mentioned Realpolitik and that got me to remembering Bismarck.

Tool making is also good. Man makes the tool and the tool makes the man. Tywin shapes the likes of Tyrion, Jaime and Gregor but this determines the way he can play the game.

[Lummel]

...On the game metaphor Tywin clearly seems for more willing to engage in the sacrificial aspect of a gambit with his more valuable pieces (family members as rooks, knights, bishops) than almost any other player (except maybe Walder Frey who has so many pieces to spare.)

Walder says that to Catelyn doesn't he? That he can match Catelyn or Tywin son for son and still have however many hundreds left. It's a pretty savage calculus from a moral point of view. Of course as far as Realpolitik is concerned it's a different matter - see how they get into trying to calculate the rate of exchange for a prisoner swap in this chapter!

[Blisscraft]

Lyanna Stark - Love your point about Sandor and Tyrion. At some level Sandor with half his face burned is just as much a "half-man" as Tyrion with his size. Also, ME times were extremely rough upon the unattractive. As you said, external beauty, or lack thereof, was the measure of a person's spiritual worthiness. So indeed, both men are "beasts" to Sansa's Belle.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ragnorak and Blisscraft,

I'm glad you found the B&B tangent relevant. :)

It will be interesting to keep that in mind during ACOK and ASOS as we see Sandor and Sansa appearing in Tyrion's chapter, and then also Tyrion taking over as the Beast. It can also be argued that in some twisted ways, Shae is playing the Beauty part to Tyrion's beast. Tyrion himself keeps reminding us of how pretty she is, but really she is quite mercenary underneath and while Tyrion thinks they may be a La Belle et La Bete, Shae is only taking on that role for his benefit; she's acting, and she's not real.

Further "beasts" to maybe keep in mind is Jorah Mormont, who gets to play the part with Daenerys, and whom Tyrion will later interact with. And like Sandor, Tyrion comments on his ugliness.

Walder says that to Catelyn doesn't he? That he can match Catelyn or Tywin son for son and still have however many hundreds left. It's a pretty savage calculus from a moral point of view. Of course as far as Realpolitik is concerned it's a different matter - see how they get into trying to calculate the rate of exchange for a prisoner swap in this chapter!

Yes, and he also doesn't seem to care that Cat is about to off Jinglebell Frey either.

[Blisscraft]

LS - One of the reasons why Martin keeps bringing up the song, "The Bear and the Maiden Fair," is an example of your point. Of course, Mormont is a bear to Dany's maiden fair.

[Lummel]

Another tangent from an interview, I'll post it now even though it's premature because I'll only forget when we get to the right time:

There are several expressions that you use to repeat a lot. Sentences such as “A Lannister always pays his debts” or “Dark wings, dark words” are often used in your novels. Why do you want to emphasize them so much?

It’s an interesting question… There are certain sentences, like “A Lannister always pays his debts”, which is not the official Lannister motto, that are repeated a lot. A lot of them are not the words of the Great Houses but there are just popular sayings; and some of my readers get annoyed for that, but I do it intentionally. I also like that Jaime remembers every day the sentence Tyrion said to him about Cersei, which is: “She’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know”. I have learned this technique from Stephen King and I like it very much.

From an interview with GRRM here

[anonymouseuser]

If we think of the game metaphor then for Tywin both Jaime and Tyrion are pieces to be deployed on the board to play and win advantage for team Lannister.

Certainly Littlefinger, Cersei and Prince Doran use the language of games in a way that suggests this way of thinking, although I am not sure if Tywin ever does.

Yes this is what I was trying to convey with my comments on the previous thread. Tywin's "sense of family" is never anything except a manifestation of his own immortality. He is never motivated by the idea of handing anything on to those who come after him, or celebrating the achievements of those who have gone before. This is amply illustrated by, on one hand, by the way he openly despises his father and on the other by the way he never ceases to try to denigrate and dominate his own children; pieces on a gameboard to be deployed, sacrificed and arranged as he sees fit is a very apt analogy.

I also find many parallels with the Late Lord Walder Frey. He may not have the power and connections Lannister gold and influence is capable of buying, but his motivations are clearly very similar to Tywin's. Plus had Tyrion not cured Tywin's constipation quite so permanently, Lord Lannister might well have lived another 20 years or more, so I suppose Westeros should be grateful for "small" mercies!

[anonymouseuser]

Lummel - On the game metaphor Tywin clearly seems for more willing to engage in the sacrificial aspect of a gambit with his more valuable pieces (family members as rooks, knights, bishops) than almost any other player (except maybe Walder Frey who has so many pieces to spare.)

Again I agree and this is why I believe Tywin was complicit in Joffrey's murder - he had become a liability but the Tyrell alliance was still very much on the table with Tommen, so why bother about sacrificing a grandson - he had another as a spare.

Lyanna Stark - I love the Beauty and the Beast analysis in the PtP thread. As obvious as it should be I had not yet pondered the origin of the Beast aspects of the tale. In the fairy tale version we have a sin followed by a curse which results in a change of heart leading to a quest for atonement. Here, in both cases we have an act of innocence treated like a sin resulting in a curse. The actual sin follows as a result of the curse and the change of heart is itself the internal struggle between Beauty and Beast where atonement is in question. Tyrion was born a Beast though not outwardly transformed into one by his curse where Sandor's curse is what creates his beastlike appearance. For those who might not know, Martin wrote for the TV series Beauty and the Beast so this is a myth he has played with extensively. The origins of Tyrion's Beast is something to ponder.

So do I, in fact we see many references to disfigurement and maiming throughout the books.

[anonymouseuser]

I took this as Tyrion looking for some kind of recognition, acceptance. or absolution from his father. I think he wanted some ackowledgement from Tywin that he has transcended the follies of his youth in his father's eyes.

I tend to think that this uncharacteristic action on Tyrion's part (he has no reason to leave himself open to any more barbed comments from his father) is an active choice on the part of the writer to show his readers that Tywin is absolutely beyond redemption. Not only has he no shame, or feelings of regret for what he did but he is still OK with using what he must know is a very painful memory for his son to get in a cheap shot, even when he knows he needs him on side for the next part of the Lannister campaign. He clearly doesn't think there is any possiblity that Tyrion will refuse to do what he asks and indeed will be happy to be the dog allowed at the top table at last.

[anonymouseuser]

Another tangent from an interview, I'll post it now even though it's premature because I'll only forget when we get to the right time:

There are several expressions that you use to repeat a lot. Sentences such as “A Lannister always pays his debts” or “Dark wings, dark words” are often used in your novels. Why do you want to emphasize them so much?

It’s an interesting question… There are certain sentences, like “A Lannister always pays his debts”, which is not the official Lannister motto, that are repeated a lot. A lot of them are not the words of the Great Houses but there are just popular sayings; and some of my readers get annoyed for that, but I do it intentionally. I also like that Jaime remembers every day the sentence Tyrion said to him about Cersei, which is: “She’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know”. I have learned this technique from Stephen King and I like it very much.

From an interview with GRRM here

Glad to know he likes Stephen King very much because so do I. And I don't even like the horror genre although to be fair SK transcends that spectacularly.

[evita mgfs]

I had noticed the gameboard motif as well. - dah - my dah, :bang: not anyone here - "Game of Thrones".

Fitzgerald develops a similar motif, with Tom Buchanan literally pushing Nick Carraway from place to place - many and more, and Tom is the 'Brute Strength" that is Tywin. That is not to say Nick Carraway = Tyrion. And Gatsby includes many games, and many cheaters. Jordan's golfing and the scandal about her moving the ball during a competition; Tom's polo ponies, and so on. [i am not developing Gatsby parallels - just thought of it when I read through the new posts. I will let Ser Gatsby, aka my mom, deal with that when she posts.]

I do know Martin likes Fitzgerald -

One of my favorite Martin quotes: "I never saw Gatsby's parties, but they seem more vivid to me than things that I actually lived" from Rolling Stone, Issue 1157, May 24, 2012, article title "The Man Behind the Throne" pp. 50-52.

I think to myself - yes, me too. Now Martin has created a world for me as vivid as Gatsby's parties! :cool4:

[butterbumps!]

Yes this is what I was trying to convey with my comments on the previous thread. Tywin's "sense of family" is never anything except a manifestation of his own immortality. He is never motivated by the idea of handing anything on to those who come after him, or celebrating the achievements of those who have gone before. This is amply illustrated by, on one hand, by the way he openly despises his father and on the other by the way he never ceases to try to denigrate and dominate his own children; pieces on a gameboard to be deployed, sacrificed and arranged as he sees fit is a very apt analogy.

I also find many parallels with the Late Lord Walder Frey. He may not have the power and connections Lannister gold and influence is capable of buying, but his motivations are clearly very similar to Tywin's. Plus had Tyrion not cured Tywin's constipation quite so permanently, Lord Lannister might well have lived another 20 years or more, so I suppose Westeros should be grateful for "small" mercies!

I have to say that I still agree with Lummel's position on Tywin's "sense of family." I do actually think the the issue of legacy is incredibly important to him (the "handing over to someone after him" aspect). That's why he's in denial about Jaime's persisting to be in the KG and not hold the Rock.

Honestly, I really see "family values" here being executed in the same vein as Tony Soprano or Godfather II Micheal Corleone. It's not about the people, but the name, and doing everything in your power to maintain that the honor and pride of that name. In particular is the notion of "never take the side of anyone outside the family again," and extreme umbrage when anyone takes a shot at your family ("In my bedroom! Where my wife sleeps and my children play with their toys").

The important issue to note is the sausage-making aspect of this. Everything you're pointing to, in terms of the way he treats the actual members of his family, happens behind closed doors. He treats them terribly, but the important thing is that no one sees this; it's private. It's done this way to enable a favorable projection of what House Lannister means, and to appear unified, strong, commanding.

I just think that this aspect- that he has loyalty to something bigger than he is- is really important here. Belonging to the Lannisters is not exclusively something that he uses to make himself seem that much more formidable, or simply a vehicle through which he pursues his own megalomaniacal dreams. Tywin and the name reinforce each other, but, for instance, he's really, really invested in the idea that his grandkids will take the throne, which does point to his working for ends beyond himself. This separates him from characters like Roose and Littlefinger I'd say.

[Ser Gatsby]

I had noticed the gameboard motif as well. - dah - my dah, :bang: not anyone here - "Game of Thrones".

Fitzgerald develops a similar motif, with Tom Buchanan literally pushing Nick Carraway from place to place - many and more, and Tom is the 'Brute Strength" that is Tywin. That is not to say Nick Carraway = Tyrion. And Gatsby includes many games, and many cheaters. Jordan's golfing and the scandal about her moving the ball during a competition; Tom's polo ponies, and so on. [i am not developing Gatsby parallels - just thought of it when I read through the new posts. I will let Ser Gatsby, aka my mom, deal with that when she posts.]

I do know Martin likes Fitzgerald -

One of my favorite Martin quotes: "I never saw Gatsby's parties, but they seem more vivid to me than things that I actually lived" from Rolling Stone, Issue 1157, May 24, 2012, article title "The Man Behind the Throne" pp. 50-52.

I think to myself - yes, me too. Now Martin has created a world for me as vivid as Gatsby's parties! :cool4:

I'm up and running, evita.

Rereading Tyrion now!

[Elba the Intoner]

Glad to know he likes Stephen King very much because so do I. And I don't even like the horror genre although to be fair SK transcends that spectacularly.

I love Stephen King too. One of the things I noticed right away about GRRM's writing is that the way he builds his characters has a very similar feel to King's characterizations. They both have a way of really building intense, ominous and suspenseful scenarios too.