Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Lummel]

"The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than those who laugh at them." - Tywin Lannister

Excellent.

The Imp and the Giant of Lannister. This is not just tongue in cheek. "The Imp" seems to capture a number of the qualities in Tyrion that people find abhorrent, and the negative/mocking representations of him that he finds to be so hurtful - it is significant, I think, that he hates this nickname even more than "dwarf". By contrast, "the Giant" encompasses the outstanding qualities within Tyrion's character and nature that can impress and inspire respect in those who are capable of percieving them (such as Maester Aemon, who was the first person to call Tyrion a "giant").

I actually did take this to be a compliment. What was your interpretation of it?

I don't think it was meant as a compliment exactly I think it was more ambiguous than that. It's from Tyrion III, we start discussing it here. I think it's more an insight that he will be a major (gigantic even) figure in the politics of Westeros, but that's not necessarily going to be due to Tyrion's positive qualities or because he does good on a huge scale. It's in the same vein I think as Tywin is a political giant. There's an ambivalence there, which is why I think Maester Aemon responds to Tyrion by saying that he is rarely called kind.

But the Imp and the Giant might be a way of exploring Tyrion.

Imp suggests impish as well as impetuous, giant - power and farsightedness to me. I think we have seen those strands in his character.

[anonymouseuser]

There's an ambivalence there, which is why I think Maester Aemon responds to Tyrion by saying that he is rarely called kind.

But the Imp and the Giant might be a way of exploring Tyrion.

Imp suggests impish as well as impetuous, giant - power and farsightedness to me. I think we have seen those strands in his character.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. In the series (blasphemy!!!) the actor looked, well I suppose worried or uneasy are the best words. Now I know exactly what it says in the book I'm even more convinced that his comment was fueled by some kind of prophecy. It's almost as if Aemon knows something he isn't at liberty to talk about, or doesn't want to. I suppose if someone did have the gift of foresight, before very long they'd learn it's better not to tell all you know (Cassandra, anyone?).

Imp = impetuous/impressive/imposter.....now isn't that interesting? I'm not a big fan of everyone's a secret Targ and I'd be disappointed if that turned out to be the case for Tyrion but when you put that together with all the rest....just sayin'.

As a side note. I always thought of Aemon as kind. He always was to Jon and Sam. Is there something we don't know about him?

[Blisscraft]

About those horns - Horns are certainly a statement of virility. Males of certain species have horns; (and the bigger the better) stags for example and familiarity within the context of this series. Also, a horn may be an example of an erection. All of those "stiffenings." However, horns are also the sign of the cuckold, that is, a man whose wife has been unfaithful. In this chapter we begin with "horns" in that Cersei made Robert a cuckold with Jaimie and produced Joffrey. Stannis' letter is the accusation (and truth) of Robert having been given horns. In the middle of the chapter we have the offer by Salloreon to give Tyrion horns on a helmet. Yes, a symbol of strength and power, but also that nagging reminder that horns may mean your lady is shagging someone else. As we learn later, Tyrion grows a pair of horns courtesy of Shae.

ETA: The series begins with the stag's horn killing the dire wolf. The idea of a cuckold having horns also comes from stags. It's the idea that the greater stag uses its horns to replace another stag.

[anonymouseuser]

I'm curious at how Varys ended up in this role in particular of being the Tyrion/Shae facilitator. This will have bearing later on when we get to Varys Did It (if he did do it), but even at this point it's kind of an odd position for Tyrion to let Varys occupy - political advice and alliance, sure, but relying on him like that for his private life?

Well that's Varys for you - all things to all men. The word "pimp" comes to mind.

[Ragnorak]

The Imp and the Giant of Lannister. This is not just tongue in cheek. "The Imp" seems to capture a number of the qualities in Tyrion that people find abhorrent, and the negative/mocking representations of him that he finds to be so hurtful - it is significant, I think, that he hates this nickname even more than "dwarf". By contrast, "the Giant" encompasses the outstanding qualities within Tyrion's character and nature that can impress and inspire respect in those who are capable of percieving them (such as Maester Aemon, who was the first person to call Tyrion a "giant").

I think you you've got it!

If there's a better one, I haven't seen it (and certainly haven't thought of it.)

[Lummel]

If the gratuitous description about the demon head complete with horns was not intended to be a joke at Tyrion's expense, then Salloreon may be thicker than Bowen and Slynt combined. Which is, perhaps, possible. I thought it was probably an introduction to the "demon monkey" monicker we see in a few chapters because the offer of a "demon's head (with horns!)" doesn't make too much sense out of that context. I mean, Tyrion is dressed in his Lannister best and clearly operating on behalf of his family. I'd think more "sincere" flattery would involve offering him a Lion's head helm. I think Tyrion senses it's a joke, but the full magnitude of the implication here comes into relief only after we see that the smallfolk actually are calling him the demon monkey (with horns!)

About those horns - Horns are certainly a statement of virility. Males of certain species have horns; (and the bigger the better) stags for example and familiarity within the context of this series. Also, a horn may be an example of an erection. All of those "stiffenings." However, horns are also the sign of the cuckold, that is, a man whose wife has been unfaithful. In this chapter we begin with "horns" in that Cersei made Robert a cuckold with Jaimie and produced Joffrey. Stannis' letter is the accusation (and truth) of Robert having been given horns. In the middle of the chapter we have the offer by Salloreon to give Tyrion horns on a helmet. Yes, a symbol of strength and power, but also that nagging reminder that horns may mean your lady is shagging someone else. As we learn later, Tyrion grows a pair of horns courtesy of Shae.

ETA: The series begins with the stag's horn killing the dire wolf. The idea of a cuckold having horns also comes from stags. It's the idea that the greater stag uses its horns to replace another stag.

Salloreon ends up tossed over the city walls - he is, or becomes, or is accused of being one of the antler men so we could see his offer of a horned helmet as being a bold political joke at Tyrion's expense, but on the other hand Timett was reported to have ripped a man's throat out in the previous chapter, in the face of that making jokes at the Hand's expense looks idoitically brave.

The horns as Blisscraft says have a double meaning both suggesting virility and being cuckholded, but in book the war helmets of King Bob, Renly and the Baratheon in The Hedge Knight (the laughing storm iirc) all wear helmets with antler horns, Again associating him with a Baratheon symbol could be a compliment, or a joke at his expense.

Third possibility. Salloreon sounds like a Lyssene name to me. Possibly if he's a foriegner he is just missing the cross cultural meanings. :dunno:

[Winter's Knight]

I think you you've got it!

If there's a better one, I haven't seen it (and certainly haven't thought of it.)

I think one good duality-that I can think of-is Tysha/Tywin. Tysha is his softer side-the naive, just, honourable boy who comforts a near-rape victim, falls in love with and weds her. Then there's his Tywin side-cold, calculating, suspicious of laughter and affection, bitter and jealous of slights.

[Ragnorak]

I think one good duality-that I can think of-is Tysha/Tywin. Tysha is his softer side-the naive, just, honourable boy who comforts a near-rape victim, falls in love with and weds her. Then there's his Tywin side-cold, calculating, suspicious of laughter and affection, bitter and jealous of slights.

Really missing that like button. That is the essence of his conflict. He chose Tysha over Tywin. He was deceived about her nature and convinced to perform an extreme cruelty effectively destroying the thing he's still searching for while his inner Tywin poisons any chance he'll ever have of finding it. Nice one.

[Lyanna Stark]

By contrast the Summer Islanders acceptance of sexuality avoids all the deception, duplicity and corruption that is associated with the situation in Kings Landing.

The brothel itself still seems like a bit of a shady place though, and Chataya is certainly engaging in a bit of deception and "mummery" when Tyrion shows up.

I do agree though that there are a lot of corruption themes going on. Or at least "mummery" or pretending that things are different than they are. First we have everyone pretending that Cersei isn't guilty, then we have the made up truth of Shireen being Patchface's daughter, later on we have Chataya and Tyrion having their little pretend/make believe game, and Tyrion pretends to be a child. There's Tyrion pretending he's going to have sex with Alayaya.

So I don't know what a more correct terminology should be: mummery? corruption? pretending? making things up? At least this chapter seems to be pre-occupied with people trying to hide the truth, in one way or another.

All of this was spawned by me thinking of sex vs intimacy just because you all now think I am a prudish old spinster. Woe. :crying: Sex doesn't necessarily imply intimacy (in fact sometimes it can be

, at least for us prudish old spinsters!), but it seems to be mistaken for it regularly.

I do find the "pretend" love of the brothel pretty disturbing though (more on a personal level, you know, old age, etc etc). It's an environment where the whores pretending to be fond of their clients is what is really sold, but real intimacy or romance is lacking completely. And Tyrion passes through a brothel and out on the other side to go on to visit....a whore. He hides his visiting a prostitute with a front of prostitution? A bit like out of the ashes into the fire, only out of the ashes into the ashes? It's like he hopes to find real intimacy on the other side, but ever are men deceived?

I think one good duality-that I can think of-is Tysha/Tywin. Tysha is his softer side-the naive, just, honourable boy who comforts a near-rape victim, falls in love with and weds her. Then there's his Tywin side-cold, calculating, suspicious of laughter and affection, bitter and jealous of slights.

This is a really good divide, I think. And reflects a lot of his moral choices as well. He'll either come down on Tysha's side, or on Tywin's (metaphorically speaking).

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - I don't want to belabor the image of imp/giant, but the thing that occured to me was "Jack the giant killer" from Jack and the beanstalk. This also conjures up the biblical story of David and Goliath. The giant killing story, where opposites collide, creates a sort of reconcilliation and rebirth. Does this sound familiar?

It sort of reminds me that the "manly" image of the horn is converted into the cornucopia or vessel, an extremely feminine image. How does this happen? The horn bearing beast must suffer the loss of its horn for both the beast and the horn to be transformed.

[Lummel]

Yes you're right Lyanna (and thank you for that short film about your life, very enlightening, I had but little suspected that there were so many dance halls modelled on the Blackpool ball room in Sweden) the brothel is a centre of mummery. It's men buying the pretence of love and women succeed by selling the most convincing illusions.

Small wonder then that Littlefinger and Varys bookend the chapter - because the creation of illusions (wealth and power respectively) are their worlds.

Tyrion's relationship with Shae is a pastiche of that with Tysha (unless she really was procured by Jaime) in which case it's a pastiche of a pastiche. The self contained manse standing in for the cottage within sound of the sea. But again it's an illusion, not a meeting of equals but role play.

Not surprising that the chapters opens with the small council meeting to deny and hide the truth.

ETA - and the chain, the great big damned chain they are building in the middle of the chapter - it's all part of a mummer's trick to destroy Stannis' fleet (

) so more deception.

[Blisscraft]

I miss the like button so. . . so many wonderful posts.

[Lyanna Stark]

Not surprising that the chapters opens with the small council meeting to deny and hide the truth.

ETA - and the chain, the great big damned chain they are building in the middle of the chapter - it's all part of a mummer's trick to destroy Stannis' fleet (

) so more deception.

Good point about the chain!

The whole chapter resonates with what the Hound tells Sansa a bit later on in ACOK: "They are all liars here...and every one better than you".

There are certainly a lot of liars in this chapters, and lies and deception being created.

Is this just the nature of politics - that it's about hiding your real motives and using ruses? Or perhaps an overall theme of corruption in the system of Westeros, sort of how we see with Arya's parallel journey through the Riverlands and the corruption there, with so called "knights" killing children, raping women and setting fire to the land? There is something rotten in the kingdom of Denmark Westeros? A system in a state of corruption and collapse?

I miss the like button so. . . so many wonderful posts.

I know! Lots of new ideas and food for thought. The demon helm bit is fabulous.

[Ragnorak]

The overall deception theme is actually very similar to the series as a whole. This is just one of those rare chapters where as readers we're clued in to the whole truth from the beginning.

[Lummel]

Ragnorak - I don't want to belabor the image of imp/giant, but the thing that occured to me was "Jack the giant killer" from Jack and the beanstalk. This also conjures up the biblical story of David and Goliath. The giant killing story, where opposites collide, creates a sort of reconcilliation and rebirth. Does this sound familiar?

It sort of reminds me that the "manly" image of the horn is converted into the cornucopia or vessel, an extremely feminine image. How does this happen? The horn bearing beast must suffer the loss of its horn for both the beast and the horn to be transformed.

you can belabour it a bit more as far as I am concerned. Is your idea that if the two opposites - the imp and the giant - are combined that you get one normal person out of the combination?

I could see how for Daenerys mother and dragon can come together, but imp and giant seems still too difficult to me. Maybe that's why Tyrion has to go through such a cathartic experience? Progress through crisis? Or crisis offers the only escape from the tensions between the two opposite ideals?

Tysha and Tywin seem more reconcilable, potentially those can be the private and the public faces.

[Blisscraft]

Lummel - It's not really a combination. It's a conflict, a fight to the death. That's the bit about the giant killer or David and Goliath (Another side this is in Jon's chapter about killing the boy to let the man be born). There is a face off between opposites that produces change and reformation. The forces don't combine. The forces combust because they cannot peacefully coexist. WHen the forces do combust, something else is created. We will get to this later in the texts. I think I can make my meaning clearer.

As for the public/private tension, it is an illusion. A shadow on the wall. . . It too, must eventually explode and does.

It's human nature to see sides and to side with a side. You see it in these forums and elsewhere all the time. I'll take the imp and you take the giant; I'll take the male and you take the female; I'll take the summer and you take the winter. You say potato and I say potato. But we can't call the whole thing off. It's all a little too much Blake (without contraries there is no progression). I'm probably not making much sense at this point. . . More later. . .

[Datepalm]

Not a dialectic approach, I take it?

[Winterfellian]

So many great posts! I feel I can’t keep up most of the time. Anyway, this is something I wanted to comment on this chapter:

"Lord Varys," he said from the saddle,

"sometimes I feel as though you are the best friend I have in King's Landing, and sometimes I feel you are my worst enemy."

I think this paradox is a curious way to describe Tyrion’s relationship with Varys. It resembles many of his relations we have seen so far. From the way it is described, Tyrion’s association with Varys is in a sort limbo; caught between two very extreme notions. One positive (my best friend) and one negative (my worst enemy). On a first look it reminded me of the principle of polarity (Basically that, opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree)

I think this is a pattern prevailing in many of Tyrion’s chapters so far and those later on both in his personal relationships as in his own person.

Is not only that Tyrion himself who can go from affable and almost comical and charming (like with Slynt and the armorers) to a more ruthless Tywin like figure. Many of his most important bonds are characterized by this stagnation between 2 polar extremes. Tywin is both father figure from whom Tyrion wants respect but at the same time is a person he hates, Bronn is both quasi friend and personal “monster/dog” (Will you kill a baby?) Shae is both the innocent imagen of Tysha and a paid prostitute, etc. Looking more closely all these people have a lot in common with Tyrion, but the differences lie more in the degree than in nature itself. Varys, Tywin, Bronn. Shae are all people with a nature very similar to Tyrion (ambitious, cunning, ruthless, etc…) but at the same time this characteristics are not absolute in them not more than they are in Tyrion’s. It all falls on the scale or degrees by we were to measure them up.

[Datepalm]

It's an interesting trio, Varys - Shae - Bronn. They're the only ones off the top of my head he has not-entirely-adversarial relashionships with during the whole book, as far as I can remember, and they make a kind of coherent posse. They're all subject to him, in one way or another - Shae and Bronn are directly in his employ, and Varys is his heirarchial subordinate, (and all three are a VAST class gap away from him. They're not just from lesser houses, they're unsalubrious commoners and a very weird foreigner.) On the other hand, theres a lot of give and take in all three relashionships, all of them being troublesome in some way. Theres a sense that this whole constructed little household he's got is a very fragile thing, with a lot of forces pulling in different directions.

I feel like each of them represents something for Tyrion, or some aspect or ambition: Shae is a quest for love, Varys is the political, and Bronn...more like purely personal, the one who doesn't give a fuck.

I can't help bringing the Freud, for which I deserve to be feather and tarred, but nevertheless:

Varys is the superego, his conscience, his ideals, his political drive. Shae is the Ego, a coherent attempt to please himself - pretty girl, sex, and Bronn is the Id.

[Lykos]

Very nice, these three also are very competent in their respective fields, but are disrespected because they (apear to) sell out their competence - they´re professionals / specialists - and as such they´re unbalanced, they only developed one side.

They´d do very well in a modern economy of service, each can buy the lacking competences and yet will never feel satisfied and thus feel the need to buy more. :devil: Good bye economic crisis.

They should be together.

We greedy germans have a saying: "Wer den Pfennig nicht ehrt, ist des Talers nicht wert." / "The one who doesn´t honour the penny, isn´t worthy of the dollar / dragon."

Maybe I like the imp / giant duality after all, Tyrion needs to learn to accept his shortcomings in order to realise his greatness.

(Blisscraft you mentioning "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell" and Datepalm mentioning Dialectic made me go to George Bataille. I think I´ll explore this.)

Edit: more Grammar & the dragon.