How realistic was the Red Wedding?

[Ramsay Gimp]

So the Karstark soldiers definitely took part?

It's kind of ironic. When Roose says to Catelyn "Since the Karstarks are of such dubious loyalty, I decided to keep the Karhold men close," he is telling the truth. But not in the way Catelyn thinks!

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I'll bring up Second World War here. It is now commonly known that there were concentration camps where the most horrible things happened. A lot of people worked there, either as a guard or something like it. However, not many people outside those camps knew what was going on there. People in the Netherlands for example, didn't expect it, but merely thought those were all 'working' camps. So it is surely possible to withhold something from other people, even when a lot of people know what's going on or what's going to happen, as long as people just shut up about it which is certainly possible.

[MrsManderly]

I'm telling you people - St Bartholomew's Day Massacre... (yes, I sound like a boring teacher)

That started as an orchestrated murder of the French Protestant nobility, but then it spilled onto the streets of Paris as a general Catholic on Protestant "free for all". Granted, the followers of the two religions were very clearly at tension with one another in ways more fundamental than can be said for Robb's Northmen/Freys & Boltons, but given general obedience to one's liege lord, it does not take a lot to imagine how this could be spread among the camps outside.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I doubt the Frey foot soldiers were all like, "We must kill all of Stark's men! *war cry*. For a good number of them it was probably a really hard 'battle'. For many it was "kill or be killed", imagine the chaos. It wasn't nearly as neatly done as it seems when discussed by some of the characters in the story.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'm telling you people - St Bartholomew's Day Massacre... (yes, I sound like a boring teacher)

That started as an orchestrated murder of the French Protestant nobility, but then it spilled onto the streets of Paris as a general Catholic on Protestant "free for all". Granted, the followers of the two religions were very clearly at tension with one another in ways more fundamental than can be said for Robb's Northmen/Freys & Boltons, but given general obedience to one's liege lord, it does not take a lot to imagine how this could be spread among the camps outside.

:agree:

[Chaircat Meow]

I'm telling you people - St Bartholomew's Day Massacre... (yes, I sound like a boring teacher)

That started as an orchestrated murder of the French Protestant nobility, but then it spilled onto the streets of Paris as a general Catholic on Protestant "free for all". Granted, the followers of the two religions were very clearly at tension with one another in ways more fundamental than can be said for Robb's Northmen/Freys & Boltons, but given general obedience to one's liege lord, it does not take a lot to imagine how this could be spread among the camps outside.

Yes, very good comparison. I would have liked it but you know ...

Although I never got that it just spread among the camps, but that it always the intention to take out the army Robb brought to the Twins. Anyway, no need for comparisons to be exact down to a every detail.

[Septon Meribald]

Remember most of the North and Riverlands forces were killed by collapsing the tents and setting them on fire. After hours of drinking the sober sarjeants who had been informed of what was happening could have told their men to stand and follow them out. It could be accomplished in 5-10 minutes, during which time a few people might look up and wonder what was going on, but most would be too drunk to give it more than a passing thought. Those who did get curious could be tuned back with a 'the king has some duty for them.' If that didn't work they could be pulled aside and dealt with after the tents were taken care of. Once the soldiers are clear of the tents, men that were sober and prearranged to do so could collapse them in a matter of minutes. With most of the men trapped and dying, the few who asked questions, followed the Bolton men or had wandered from the tent could be slain by the forces held away from the ceremony that were seen by Arya and the Hound hunting down the stragglers.

[Independent George]

I don't find it unbelievable that they could have pulled off the Red Wedding. What I find unbelievable is that afterwards, none of the common foot soldiers has blabbed the hell about it. Ditto for the sacking of Winterfell - you can keep operational security in the short term before the attack, but there are way too many people involved for it to remain a secret.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Just to clarify, Robb wasn't after the Iron Throne. He wanted the North to become its own entity.

Yes he wanted the North and the Riverlands.

[Septon Meribald]

I don't find it unbelievable that they could have pulled off the Red Wedding. What I find unbelievable is that afterwards, none of the common foot soldiers has blabbed the hell about it. Ditto for the sacking of Winterfell - there are way too many people involved for it to remain a secret.

Well the Red Wedding is the worst kept secret in Westeros. Everyone knows what happened, they just can't freely say it, because they are in the power of those who rely upon the lie. Winterfell on the other hand I have failed to understood how that's not more public. We know Ser Rodrick's men weren't all slaughtered. There was a lot of confusion during the attack, which is how Ramsay managed it, but some of the survivors would have put things together and started talking about how the Bastard had turned on the Northern army and then sacked Winterfell.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Well the Red Wedding is the worst kept secret in Westeros. Everyone knows what happened, they just can't freely say it, because they are in the power of those who rely upon the lie. Winterfell on the other hand I have failed to understood how that's not more public. We know Ser Rodrick's men weren't all slaughtered. There was a lot of confusion during the attack, which is how Ramsay managed it, but some of the survivors would have put things together and started talking about how the Bastard had turned on the Northern army and then sacked Winterfell.

I feel that they did start talking, but what could have been done about it? :crying:

[Black Wolf Smith]

Just to clarify, Robb wasn't after the Iron Throne. He wanted the North to become its own entity.

No your wrong. He wanted revenge. Becoming King was the best way to do that. The war he fought had little to nothing to do with becoming a seprate entity. If it did, he would have stayed back and built up his forces in to protecting his "kingdom".

I'll bring up Second World War here. It is now commonly known that there were concentration camps where the most horrible things happened. A lot of people worked there, either as a guard or something like it. However, not many people outside those camps knew what was going on there. People in the Netherlands for example, didn't expect it, but merely thought those were all 'working' camps. So it is surely possible to withhold something from other people, even when a lot of people know what's going on or what's going to happen, as long as people just shut up about it which is certainly possible.

BULLSHIT!! I wrote a nice little retort, but the Board Mods might not like it.

to the OP.

I think that more unrealistic parts would be that an army of 12K could be destroyed by 6-8K.

More important, that while at war, that robb would allow all his men would be drinkning. You would leave at least 25% of your forces on guard, even if you really trusted the Freys(which the did not).

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

It definitely wasn't six thousand or seven thousand people in on it. No where near that number. A lot of the freys and some boltons were. But most just received the order in the fight. The actual red wedding part was a select group of people with pivitol roles. Its not unlikely it was kept under covers between the three families (lannisters,freys,boltons)

And its also a major plot device and had to happen. It sucks but its just the way the story goes.

[Arland]

I think that more unrealistic parts would be that an army of 12K could be destroyed by 6-8K.

More important, that while at war, that robb would allow all his men would be drinkning. You would leave at least 25% of your forces on guard, even if you really trusted the Freys(which the did not).

IIRC Robb didn't have 12K at this point. His count of 12K to attack the neck included Bolton men, which turned against him. I think what most contributed to the success of this whole afair was not even the wedding as much as betrayal of Bolton's men. Even if there were some forces not participating in the festivities, they could be easily surprised by fellow northmen, who could approach them without raising suspicion.

And we must remember that this is not a modern army, governed by discipline. It is very problematic not to include some of your loyal men in this great feast.

To the OP, I would think that only commend level people were in on the plan, while soldier Freys and Boltons soldiers were told to be ready to fight because "you cannot trust those Freys", you cannot trust those northmen. They had separate camps and separate festivities. Probably Freys and Bolton kept some force sober (without telling the real reason just as a precaution). After the northmen lords were dealt with in the castles, Freys commanders and Roose went to each camp, proclaimed that Robb have betrayed them or whatever and called for an attack.

[The BlackBear]

No your wrong. He wanted revenge. Becoming King was the best way to do that. The war he fought had little to nothing to do with becoming a seprate entity. If it did, he would have stayed back and built up his forces in to protecting his "kingdom".

His kingdom included the Riverlands, which is the least defensible of all the kingdoms. Unless you're suggesting he retreat past the neck and leave half his family to die? He went on the attack in the West hoping to smash Tywin and force them to make terms.

He initially wanted to free Ned, and assist his grandfather. When he got word of the death and illegitimacy, he did want revenge but not at the expense of his people. And he wanted to get his sisters back. He couldn't recognise Renly (not legal king) Stannis was a no hope, and couldn't (legally or personally) support Joff. Independence seemed the smartest thing to do in the circumstance.

[sertravisredbeard]

I'm sure that whichever Frey and Bolton captains that were involved in the planning were told to only inform absolutely loyal men to carry out the more important roles. While having a few thousand soldiers in the loop may seem unrealistic, the commanders probably knew who they could trust and who should be given specific tasks. From Jaime's description of Steelshanks Walton, the Boltons and Karstarks probably had more than a few extremely loyal, capable battle commanders who could easily coordinate the massacre. And it seems that the Freys did a pretty good job of weeding out any dissenters (Perwyn, Olyvar). Apparently it worked, which sucks.

[Lion of Judah]

Good question, I agree with most that this was kept between only those that needed to know and when the time came the soldiers just followed orders.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

No your wrong. He wanted revenge. Becoming King was the best way to do that. The war he fought had little to nothing to do with becoming a seprate entity. If it did, he would have stayed back and built up his forces in to protecting his "kingdom".

He wanted to save his family, and was dragged into a bigger war.

He couldn't recognise Renly (not legal king) Stannis was a no hope, and couldn't (legally or personally) support Joff. Independence seemed the smartest thing to do in the circumstance.

He probably would have joined his forces to Stannis', but he had to go with the wishes of his men, and hey wanted him to become the king in the North.

[saryan]

I'm telling you people - St Bartholomew's Day Massacre... (yes, I sound like a boring teacher)

That started as an orchestrated murder of the French Protestant nobility, but then it spilled onto the streets of Paris as a general Catholic on Protestant "free for all". Granted, the followers of the two religions were very clearly at tension with one another in ways more fundamental than can be said for Robb's Northmen/Freys & Boltons, but given general obedience to one's liege lord, it does not take a lot to imagine how this could be spread among the camps outside.

Thanks for this. :) I agree.

The one thing I had wondered about was the custom regarding guest right. I wonder how superstitious the average soldier would have been about attacking guests? Not saying it would have superseded their inclination to obey orders, but I did wonder about it, whether it would have been a more difficult order to make them follow. It makes me wonder if the Freys et al did impress the degree of Robb's insult upon them, to encourage them to break this tradition.

[anonymouseuser]

Don't know, will never know because I have no intention of ever reading that bit. Ok, I'll admit it I just can't stand the pain....