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4 Mothers for 3 Babies


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#1 Hustle

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:55 AM

Elia Martell
Lyanna Stark
Ashara Dayne
Rhaella Targaryen

These 4 women are all, at least assumed, to have been with child sometime towards the end of Robert's Rebellion. The believed fathers and children of these mothers:

Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell - Aegon VI (Either dead or at Storm's End)

Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark - Jon Snow (Either dead or at the Wall)

A Stark and Ashara Dayne - Stillborn

Rhaella Targaryen and Mad King - Dany

There are many fun ways to look at these babies and think about what/why they might have been changed at birth. Now as fun as that is, there has to be the why. Why would any of these babies been switched with the others? I see only one thing which makes sense

Rhaella Targaryen gave birth to a stillborn...and Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Starks baby was sent to Dragon Stone in hopes of disguising their child as the Mad Kings.

Dany is the daughter of Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark.

So, what about Jon.

Jon could be the bastard of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. It is said a Stark dishonored her, not Ned. I know there is a theory which has Aegon VI as the child of Ned and Ashara, as much as I would like that, very unlikely. I do think it would be fun.

#2 Nordling

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:12 AM

Never thought about that Dany thingy.. but if you think too much about these baby switches, you're just going to mindfuck yourself.

#3 Hustle

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:08 PM

Rhaella Targaryen gives birth to a stillborn and dies in grief. So what? Rhaegar is already dead on the trident right. He can't do anything, and by the way, who else knows Lyanna is with child. Well...

Gerald Dayne.

I am a firm believer that this character has strong dies to Prince Rhaegar, maybe even being him. Lets think about this.

Rhaegar Targaryen believes the Prince who was Promised will be one of his children, or one of the children born from the mad king and his mother the queen. He believes his other two children are dead. There is Viserys and the child he had with Lyanna Stark. These are the two most likely candidates. Prince Rhaegar is guilt ridden over all the death and loss he has caused. He sends his daughter, Dany, to Dragon Stone and assumes the identity of Gerald Dayne.

But wait...how did Rhaegar survive the trident.

Well, two possibilities spring to mind.

1) He wasn't really there, it was an imposter, maybe the real Gerald Dayne if there was such a person or

2) Resurrection. I believe that there is a span of several months between the battle of the Trident and the Tower of Joy. In AFFC's, in a Brienne chapter, isn't there a character who died during the battle of the Trident only to be swept downstream and resurrected. If this is true, it should give Prince Rheagar enough time to return to the Tower of Joy and keep his only surviving child safe.

#4 alienarea

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:27 PM

There isn't any proof for Lyanna being pregnant.

#5 Nordling

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:36 PM

Ha. Lyanna's death while giving a birth to a child(stillborn or not) could indeed have caused so called ''Robert-syndrome'', making Rhaegar a darker person than he was. Darkstar is described as a cruel person, full of hatred. He also has the Valyrian looks, but that is common amongst the Daynes.

But wait...how did Rhaegar survive the trident.


1) He wasn't really there, it was an imposter, maybe the real Gerald Dayne if there was such a person or

2) Resurrection. I believe that there is a span of several months between the battle of the Trident and the Tower of Joy. In AFFC's, in a Brienne chapter, isn't there a character who died during the battle of the Trident only to be swept downstream and resurrected. If this is true, it should give Prince Rheagar enough time to return to the Tower of Joy and keep his only surviving child safe.


@1. In that case Rhaegar would've remained in Dorne with the pregnant Lyanna. Why was not he there when Ned w/ his companions arrived?

@2. No can do. Resurrecting wasn't possible until the Arrival of the Red Comet/Birth of Dany's Dragons, says Thoros of Myr. The Red Priest's powers have grown stronger only now after those events. And this person who you mentioned was only knocked unconsicious; not smashed in the chest with a warhammer so hard that his armor shattered.

There isn't any proof for Lyanna being pregnant.

Sigh. Just take a look around the forum.

#6 Bluesnow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:43 PM

There isn't any proof for Lyanna being pregnant.


While I'm too lazy to look up the exact wording.. Eddard recalls her in a bed of blood at some point. The term is pretty commonly used to indicate childbirth at other points in the book.
Although there is no definitive proof that she was pregnant, you are correct.

I really like the idea of Rhaegar at the trident maybe being an imposter. In truth maybe so many people were busy trying to find the rubies from the armor no one bothered looked at the corpse lol?

#7 Hustle

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:46 PM

Stay with me here:

Arya
Sansa
Robb
Bran
Rickon

All have the same father and mother, yet different children inheritied different looks, with four of these children looking like Tullys and only one looking like a Stark.

In the first book, AGOT, there are 8 Main POV's:

Eddard
Catelyn
Bran
Sansa
Arya
Jon

All these are part of a family, Jon clearly being a Stark do to his features and then 2 more POV's

Dany
Tyrion

I believe GRRM, with the first 3 books, had a clear path and idea of where the characters would end up. I believe that Eddard was always meant to die and that the other 7 characters are the most important to the series. Are they connected by blood...

Dany could have Targ and Stark blood, Tyrion could have Targ and Lannister blood. I think the entire series could very well focus on family. All of these characters were part of a larger connected family. Now, look at the title of the whole series:

A Song of Fire and Ice... This tells me a key character shall be both fire and ice, Stark and Targ, Wolf and Dragon. We all thought Jon, but why not Dany. The long lost Stark coming back to Westeros to save her familys, both Wolf and Dragon. Who could know this, the only living person could be Gerald Dayne.

#8 Coldhands the Just

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 02:10 PM

I always wanted Arya to meet up with Dany... And this will fix the whole "Jon has to quit the Night's Watch" thing, and he can stay true to his vows.

#9 Jem

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:33 PM

If you want to swap babies, it would have to be Elia's and Ashara's, they at least were in the same place at the same time (KL) for at least some period of time. Lyanna was in a remote, unknown location when she gave birth and Rhaella was in a remote, difficult to access location when she gave birth - far too difficult to arrange a baby swap.

Besides Elia and Ashara's babies were likely conceived at around about the same time (shortly before, during, or shortly after Harrenhal), whereas Lyanna and Rhaella's babies were born around nine months apart.

#10 Bluesnow

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

If Dany had Stark blood it would put a new twist on Eddard wanting to protect her from assassination, but I think there would have been some indication of that thought process if it were true.

#11 Lord Liam DarkStark

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:54 PM

I don't see any reason to think this. If anyone had a still born it was most likely elia martell and she switched babies with ashara. But I doubt that too. Too many baby switches is the same as too many secret targs

#12 alienarea

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

SNIP

Sigh. Just take a look around the forum.


I did. All I found was speculation and wishful thinking.

#13 Hustle

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

If you want to swap babies, it would have to be Elia's and Ashara's, they at least were in the same place at the same time (KL) for at least some period of time. Lyanna was in a remote, unknown location when she gave birth and Rhaella was in a remote, difficult to access location when she gave birth - far too difficult to arrange a baby swap.

Besides Elia and Ashara's babies were likely conceived at around about the same time (shortly before, during, or shortly after Harrenhal), whereas Lyanna and Rhaella's babies were born around nine months apart.


Lyanna's kidnapping was what triggered Robert's Rebellion and she could have had her baby any time during the Rebellion. While it is said she died in a "bed of blood" but that does not necessarliy mean she died right after childbirth. Plus, if it was an imposter Rhaegar could have been anywhere.

#14 Jem

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:55 PM

Lyanna's kidnapping was what triggered Robert's Rebellion and she could have had her baby any time during the Rebellion. While it is said she died in a "bed of blood" but that does not necessarliy mean she died right after childbirth. Plus, if it was an imposter Rhaegar could have been anywhere.


Well she couldn't have had her baby any time during the Rebellion, that doesn't make sense. And if you want to argue that Lyanna's baby and Rhaella's baby were swapped, then you should be trying to make Lyanna's baby younger than it is, not older. As it is, a baby that is born at the end of the Rebellion (Lyanna's) is already too old to be Rhaella's baby who was born nine months later.

And yes 'bed of blood' means she did die in child bed. Not necessarily in child birth, but more likely from puerperal fever a week or two after the baby was born.

And if you are claiming that Rhaegar was an imposter, I am afraid that you are seriously overreaching.

#15 poky

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:26 PM

what are the ages of jon and dany?

maybe they are twins! and ned send dany to dragon stone cause she had white hair and purple eyes and could not pass her as his bastard unlike jon who he decided to bring back to winterfell.

#16 Jem

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

what are the ages of jon and dany?

maybe they are twins! and ned send dany to dragon stone cause she had white hair and purple eyes and could not pass her as his bastard unlike jon who he decided to bring back to winterfell.


No. Dany was born around nine months after Jon.

#17 Hustle

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:52 PM

Timelines are very fuzzy, plus...one thing no one brings up...characters LIE. That's what makes them human. Humans lie to other humans to advance their own goals.

Nothing which has been stated in the series is set in stone. Yes, there are things which are 99.9% stone, but something like Dany's birth, with next to nothing about Dany's birth mother being said at any point throughout the entire 6,000 pages of ASOFAI...makes one think. Dany seems more interested in finding out about her assumed brother then her assumed father.

I love the idea of Dany being the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It makes a lot of sense. Now...

There is nobody looking over the events of the series with a microscope who is in the series. by this I mean, if it was widely known that the Queen gave birth to a child on Dragon Stone, who could tell the differance between a six week old and a six month old. Seriously, people are looking at this with modern science. Babies are babies and babies, all babies, minus hair color, look alike. Lets be honest, switching a baby of low birth with one of high birth would be simple.

#18 Jem

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

Timelines are very fuzzy, plus...one thing no one brings up...characters LIE. That's what makes them human. Humans lie to other humans to advance their own goals.

Nothing which has been stated in the series is set in stone. Yes, there are things which are 99.9% stone, but something like Dany's birth, with next to nothing about Dany's birth mother being said at any point throughout the entire 6,000 pages of ASOFAI...makes one think. Dany seems more interested in finding out about her assumed brother then her assumed father.

I love the idea of Dany being the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It makes a lot of sense. Now...

There is nobody looking over the events of the series with a microscope who is in the series. by this I mean, if it was widely known that the Queen gave birth to a child on Dragon Stone, who could tell the differance between a six week old and a six month old. Seriously, people are looking at this with modern science. Babies are babies and babies, all babies, minus hair color, look alike. Lets be honest, switching a baby of low birth with one of high birth would be simple.


Oh my god. Have you ever even seen a baby in your life? Who could tell the difference between a six week old and a six month old? Hmmmm...pretty much anyone with eyes. You don't need any kind of fancy modern science to work it out.

And yes, some of the timelines are fuzzy - but they are not that fuzzy. Lyanna died at the end of the Rebellion, presumably after giving birth to Jon. Rhaella was raped and impregnated and then sent to Dragonstone, also at the end of the Rebellion. Rhaella then gave birth nine months later during the taking of Dragonstone. Dany was conceived at approximately the same time Jon was born. Lyanna and Rhaegar had been dead for nine or more months before Dany was born - it is impossible for them to be her parents, no matter how much you want this.

Edited by Jem, 13 October 2012 - 10:15 PM.


#19 Volantis

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:39 PM

Rhaella Targaryen gives birth to a stillborn and dies in grief. So what? Rhaegar is already dead on the trident right. He can't do anything, and by the way, who else knows Lyanna is with child. Well...

Gerald Dayne.

I am a firm believer that this character has strong dies to Prince Rhaegar, maybe even being him. Lets think about this.

Rhaegar Targaryen believes the Prince who was Promised will be one of his children, or one of the children born from the mad king and his mother the queen. He believes his other two children are dead. There is Viserys and the child he had with Lyanna Stark. These are the two most likely candidates. Prince Rhaegar is guilt ridden over all the death and loss he has caused. He sends his daughter, Dany, to Dragon Stone and assumes the identity of Gerald Dayne.

But wait...how did Rhaegar survive the trident.

Well, two possibilities spring to mind.

1) He wasn't really there, it was an imposter, maybe the real Gerald Dayne if there was such a person or

2) Resurrection. I believe that there is a span of several months between the battle of the Trident and the Tower of Joy. In AFFC's, in a Brienne chapter, isn't there a character who died during the battle of the Trident only to be swept downstream and resurrected. If this is true, it should give Prince Rheagar enough time to return to the Tower of Joy and keep his only surviving child safe.


Gerald Dayne was only 6-7 years old at the time of the rebellion

#20 Nordling

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:04 AM

@Volantis

Where was this mentioned?